Can ATC cancel IFR?

[flyguy]

Okay so I was comming back from an IFR cross country with a student. About 20 miles from the airport approach tells us "RADAR Service Terminated, Squawk 1200, Contact the Tower." We were on an IFR flight plan. Can they do that? It was VMC so I had no problem with it, other than I would have at least liked VFR flight following for the practice ILS, but can they just cancel IFR on us??? I thought the pilot had to request cancellation of IFR.

[JEP]

I had that happen on a ifr x/c as well. they cancelled and all I mentioned was we were on an IFR training fligth and would like to terminate at the field after the approach. No problems...

[meritflyer]

I didnt think ATC could just throw you off your IFR plan.

I am interested to hear the ATC guys thoughts on this..

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by flyguy

About 20 miles from the airport approach tells us "RADAR Service Terminated, Squawk 1200, Contact the Tower."

. . . but can they just cancel IFR on us???

They didn't cancel your IFR flight plan -- they terminated Radar Service. If they can't provide Radar Service, they can't provide Radar Service. There's nothing unusual about that.


Did you close your flight plan?






.

[SteveC]

You need to understand that "radar service terminated" does not mean that IFR was cancelled. It simply means that control of your IFR flight has been transferred to the tower and they will be using non-radar procedures to keep you from running into any other IFR aircraft, and keep you at safe altitudes. See-and-avoid is the rule for you to miss VFR aircraft, just as it is when you are in VFR conditions with radar coverage. Remember that even when you are on an IFR flight plan, ATC is not required to give you traffic advisories with VFR aircraft. They will normally do their best to do so, but it is a "workload permitting" service, and I can guarantee (from watching TCAS displays) that in busy locations (entering/leaving Chicago Class B) they don't have time to call all the potential VFR targets for everyone.

When thinking about "radar service terminated", just realize that the conditions that you are entering does not allow ATC to talk to you and see you on radar at the same time. In the situation that you describe you are talking to the tower and they do not have radar, or if they do it is for their "situational awareness" only, and may not be approved for traffic avoidance (kind of like a pilot using a VFR handheld GPS on an IFR flight - helps, but not to be used primarily).

Similarly, "radar service lost" can (and does) happen in rural areas when you descend below radar coverage, such as below 3000-5000 feet on an approach in certain areas of northern Minnesota, Wisconsin, or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and is the equivalent to "radar service terminated". You can even lose radio communication and still be on an IFR flight plan, and ATC will not allow another IFR flight into the same airspace until you cancel IFR. In some places you have to call Flight Service on the telephone after landing to do so, and it may even require a land line instead of cellular (gasp!). In this situation you will not be talking to anyone, yet your airspace will be protected and you will be assigned altitudes and routing to keep you out of the dirt. Just like in the good old days when there was no radar coverage over the country, they use tools other than radar to keep aircraft separated. Even today, if radar in an area fails IFR aircraft can still fly through that area safely, since ATC will put them on airways and use timing to keep them apart rather than watching them on radar. ATC control of IFR flights is not necessarily synonymous with radar procedures, although most people tend to think of it that way.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by TonyC

They didn't cancel your IFR flight plan -- they terminated Radar Service. If they can't provide Radar Service, they can't provide Radar Service. There's nothing unusual about that.


Did you close your flight plan?






.

(You typed less so got done earlier!)



By the way, tower would have cancelled their IFR flight plan for them in this case.

[meritflyer]

They didn't cancel your IFR flight plan -- they terminated Radar Service. If they can't provide Radar Service, they can't provide Radar Service. There's nothing unusual about that.

By his original post, he didnt say just "radar service terminated". He threw in the "squawk 1200". That definately means they were removed from the IFR system. If in fact that is what happened, ATC closed his IFR plan without him requesting it and I would say that is a little unusual.

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by SteveC

By the way, tower would have cancelled their IFR flight plan for them in this case.

Would you believe . . . I had to scroll up to verfiy he had mentioned anything about a tower. The "Contact the Tower" (which I had quoted) was a big clue. I guess I should have taken my nap before posting, instead of after.

You are exactly correct, sir.




.

[DE727UPS]

"You need to understand that "radar service terminated" does not mean that IFR was cancelled"

Yeah, but they wouldn't give you a VFR code. I bet the controller thought he was just on flight following. In my opinion, ATC screwed up.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

By his original post, he didnt say just "radar service terminated". He threw in the "squawk 1200". That definately means they were removed from the IFR system. If in fact that is what happened, ATC closed his IFR plan without him requesting it and I would say that is a little unusual.

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"You need to understand that "radar service terminated" does not mean that IFR was cancelled"

Yeah, but they wouldn't give you a VFR code. I bet the controller thought he was just on flight following. In my opinion, ATC screwed up.

I missed that part about squawking 1200 on the first read through. You guys may very well be correct, and if so that would be an ATC screw-up.

[SmitteyB]

If a controller/agency were you cancel your IFR flight plan, they must say "IFR Flight Plan Cancelled, Radar Service Terminated, Squawk 1200, Maintain VFR, Freq Changed Approved"- if they don't include IFR FP CANCELLED then you have to assume that it is still active and IFR procedures still govern the operation of the flight.

[queeno]

a controller CANNOT cancel a pilots IFR clrn period ,only the pilot can do this, but that doent mean i cant give them a clrn that may make them want to cancel .sounds to me like the controller thought the flight was vfr, or maybe he was jut a moron we got plenty in the job.

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by queeno

a controller CANNOT cancel a pilots IFR clrn period ,only the pilot can do this, but that doent mean i cant give them a clrn that may make them want to cancel .sounds to me like the controller thought the flight was vfr, or maybe he was jut a moron we got plenty in the job.

We get this with Joshua Approach out in Socal around Palmdale. As soon as we complete our first approach we get a VFR squawk code and VFR altitudes, though we've NEVER been told that we had our IFR flight plan taken out of the system. Then when we're done shooting our approaches, we need to pick up a new clearance back to our home airport.

I didn't realize what was going on for months until one day when they were giving me a hard time about trying to get home. I had always thought that I had simply reached my clearance limit and I needed to get further clearance, but it turns out I wasn't on an IFR flight plan anymore! I need to talk with somebody about that one because it kind of screws up some 135 rules when they do that without telling us that we're canceled.

(I found out just the other day that they were actually canceling us when I asked him if we were still on an IFR flight plan, and the guy seemed to think that completing our first approach was cause for removing the flight plan without telling us. Now maybe after the first approach they SHOULD remove the flight plan, but they've also gotta tell us that they're doing so).

[DE727UPS]

Did you file to the airport where you are doing practice approaches? If so, you need to have a second FP on file for the return if you want return IFR service.

[flyguy]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Did you file to the airport where you are doing practice approaches? If so, you need to have a second FP on file for the return if you want return IFR service.

I filed 3 flight plans. All three I put "IFR training flight" in the remarks section. One flight plan was from MER to BFL. I got a clearance on the ground at MER and when I got to BFL they gave me choice of approach and no problems. I also filed from BFL to FAT. Same thing, clearance on the ground, choice of approach at FAT, no problems. My last flight plan was FAT to MER. I got a clearance on the ground at FAT, and when I got handed off to Norcal they had no problem with me cruising at 4000 so I'd assume they knew I was IFR. Then about 25 miles from MER they told me to descend to 3000, and a few minutes later they told me to squawk VFR. We were in class E the entire time. Never had any problems with RADAR coverage on that route before, although it could have been temporarily out, but there were no NOTAMs. Also it was pretty late at night, definately not busy. In fact I think we were the only ones on frequency with them at the time. Couldn't have been a workload issue. It all just seemed very strange.

[DE727UPS]

Again, I think this is ATC doing something technically improper. You gotta understand, the sooner the controller gets rid of you the sooner his workload goes down. Isn't that what we all want out of life?

The best thing you could do is challenge it when they "terminate" you. Say "we'd like to keep our IFR clearance and will cancel with you on the ground".

[flyguy]

Okay so today I made the trip again from FAT to MER to ferry a plane, but this time it was VFR, and it was in the middle of the day and Norcal was pretty busy, and this time they asked if I wanted an approach. Whatever

[jtrain609]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Did you file to the airport where you are doing practice approaches? If so, you need to have a second FP on file for the return if you want return IFR service.

True, but we never put the wheels on the ground, so our flight plan shouldn't technically be closed until we actually are on the ground; the missed approach doesn't count.

(Or at least I don't believe it does)

[KLB]

They've been trying to cancel me early on the run that I'm doing lately. I just tell them that I my company restricts IFR cancellations to within ten miles of the airport and that they are going to have to hold on to me for a little while longer.

[jtrain609]

And if they give you more crap, tell them it's a 135 regulation...'cause it is!

[WAFlyBoy]

Originally Posted by flyguy

Okay so today I made the trip again from FAT to MER to ferry a plane, but this time it was VFR, and it was in the middle of the day and Norcal was pretty busy, and this time they asked if I wanted an approach. Whatever

Well Flyguy, I think we both know that NorCal tends to treat any N-number ending with "Alpha Mike" a little differently. It doesn't surprise me that the night crew wanted to dump you ASAP, nor does it surprise me that the day crew offered services for an approach.

[sopdan]

My guess is this:

I assume your school has a number of planes with similar tail numbers. I also assume that your planes get flight following on a regular basis. If that is the case, it sounds like he forgot you were IFR and cut you loose b/c he thought you were on flight following.

No harm, no foul in this case... but if he tries it again when your IMC, let him know!

[flyguy]

Yeah I'd have definately spoken up if we were IMC. My student almost instictively just complied with the instruction, and even I didn't think anything of it at first, being severe clear and all. I just gave him vectors for the ILS and called the tower for a straight in. No worries.

[KLB]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

And if they give you more crap, tell them it's a 135 regulation...'cause it is!

Well you know how that goes. The controllers have their set of regs and we have our set of regs. It's his responsibility not to break his regs and its my responsibility not to break mine.

BTW. Thanks for the help Saturday morning.

[jtrain609]

Hey did that help? I can't believe they were giving you crap!