250 under 10,000

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Whats wrong with the PC12?

It is just the ultimate fly in the ointment... especially in the center environment. The plane is sloooooooooooow... especially for the altitude it flies at. They seem to always fly at a bad altitude, FL220, FL230, in that range. Those can be PITA altitudes for us, generally FL230 is an altitude where sectors are split (high/low), flying right at that boundary altitude is a PITA, lots of traffic is climbing and descending through that altitude at far higher speeds.

It always seems that when you are working a PC12 it's in the way.

[averyrm]

Originally Posted by Flysher

Really?? I wonder why they want you guys flying so much slower? Also how come you cant drop the wheels till 125, i'm guessing thats a profile thing correct?

We fly only chieftans, they fly all kinds of navajo's

[jtrain609]

Yup, and that's why we use the speeds we do. We've got so many variations in the fleet that we've just taken the lowest possible numbers for any of our Navajo/Chieftains and use them across the board.

It'd sure be a lot easier to fly if we could cross the FAF at 150.

[Flysher]

Ah ok, to be honest I didn't realize there was a real difference in Navajo/Chieftain. Thanks for the info.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

It is just the ultimate fly in the ointment... especially in the center environment. The plane is sloooooooooooow... especially for the altitude it flies at. They seem to always fly at a bad altitude, FL220, FL230, in that range. Those can be PITA altitudes for us, generally FL230 is an altitude where sectors are split (high/low), flying right at that boundary altitude is a PITA, lots of traffic is climbing and descending through that altitude at far higher speeds.

It always seems that when you are working a PC12 it's in the way.

Huh... For a turboprop, I always thought it was fast (270 KTS). I guess it sucks when you also get a King Air, Meridian, TBM, or Lancair up there. I bet ATC loves it when I file for FL200 in my C182T when it trues out at 170-180!

BTW, what it PITA?

[Bandit_Driver]

Fox X-Ray

According the F-16 Driver I used to fly he said that they were allowed 350 KIAS below 10...

I also beleive there was a test program a while back around the DFW area that allowed controllers to authorized speeds above 250 below 10...

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Huh... For a turboprop, I always thought it was fast (270 KTS). I guess it sucks when you also get a King Air, Meridian, TBM, or Lancair up there. I bet ATC loves it when I file for FL200 in my C182T when it trues out at 170-180!

BTW, what it PITA?

I don't see as many of the other slow A/C up around FL200 and above as I see the PC12's ... not sure why.

PITA = Pain In The A**

[seagull]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Ooh, here's a question for you on the topic.

Say I'm flying an aircraft that has a clean speed of 258 knots without slats. Do we need to tell anyone that, drop the slats and climb at 250 or is 8 knots not that big of a deal?

Tony is correct. Personally, I notify them if I think ATC may not be aware of how fast we're going and appears to be putting us behind slower traffic. If we're heavy and doing almost 290 kts, they might not realize that we are moving that much faster than that 737 or RJ. Especially as we push over to 355 indicated at 10k. Same for arrival -- they might not be aware that we're going to be unable to get much under 170kts indicated before touchdown!

There is a caveat to the rule, though. If you have a clearance restriction of 250 kts (such as they often give you out of the SFO area airports), or, if there is a similar restriction on the SID, then you need to comply or request clearance to go faster.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

Fox X-Ray

According the F-16 Driver I used to fly he said that they were allowed 350 KIAS below 10...

I also beleive there was a test program a while back around the DFW area that allowed controllers to authorized speeds above 250 below 10...

Thanks for the info on the military flights, my source that gave me the original info is not the most reliable.

You are right about the test program, I think it was a few years back and is no longer in use ... I remember Natca was not hot on the idea after it ran for a while because the controllers hated it. I'm sure there are pilots on here that flew during it.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

It is just the ultimate fly in the ointment... especially in the center environment. The plane is sloooooooooooow... especially for the altitude it flies at. They seem to always fly at a bad altitude, FL220, FL230, in that range. Those can be PITA altitudes for us, generally FL230 is an altitude where sectors are split (high/low), flying right at that boundary altitude is a PITA, lots of traffic is climbing and descending through that altitude at far higher speeds.

It always seems that when you are working a PC12 it's in the way.

Are you looking forward to a torrent of weekend warriors filing FL350 in their VLJ at mach .65?

[TonyC]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

According the F-16 Driver I used to fly he said that they were allowed 350 KIAS below 10...

I also beleive there was a test program a while back around the DFW area that allowed controllers to authorized speeds above 250 below 10...

Some airplanes are designed such that they cannot safely comply with the normal speed limits, and they are specifically exempted. I seem to recall the limit for the T-38 was 300 knots. I don't know what it might be for an F-16, but 350 seems to be on the high side.


You may be remembering the test program and Houston's George Bush Intercontinental. That test program has ended, and speed limits are back to normal.






.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Are you looking forward to a torrent of weekend warriors filing FL350 in their VLJ at mach .65?

"SOCAL Departure, N546 Sugar Pop, just off of Pop-Oscah-Charlie, like to pick up an IFR to Jackson, Missisip, and we'd like direct, please . . . . "

[Doug Taylor]

"Lanna 'proach, 8 nina one sugar pop looking for an approach with the optino on 26R..."

[Rocketman99]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

Thanks for the info on the military flights, my source that gave me the original info is not the most reliable.

Straight from the military basic flying rules bible, AFI 11-202V3, as far as speed goes:
5.7.5. FAA Speed Authorization. The FAA recognizes that certain military operations and training requirements cannot be met under the terms of the FAR 91.117, Aircraft Speed, and has therefore granted a speed authorization. The authorization grants an exception to aircraft having flight characteristics
that preclude safe operations at speeds below 250 KIAS by providing that if the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed, the aircraft may be operated at the minimum safe speed.

Of course there are a bunch of other conditions that go along with it that I wont bother to post. There were more instances where we were allowed to speed that are no longer allowed (one that stricks out is a formation rejoin after takeoff in the tanker used to require flying 280 until rejoined but no longer unless specifically requested, or at least that was the case last time i did it a couple years back).

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Are you looking forward to a torrent of weekend warriors filing FL350 in their VLJ at mach .65?

These are going to be the worst to deal with to date. Supposedly there are a ton of orders for these things. Some of the models are said to be able to cruise at or close to FL410... can you imagine ??? At least with the PC12's and the like they cruise at altitudes where everyone is slow, we just have vector around them, the VLJ's will be like a moving road block.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

the VLJ's will be like a moving road block.

Kind of like a climbing CRJ200?

On the 250 below 10000 question--Socal approach always tells us to maintain 280 when we're well below 10000. Some of them are nice enough to say "maintain 280 when able", but most don't. I wonder how often people just blow through 250? Do you have to gently remind people of the speed restriction often?

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

Kind of like a climbing CRJ200?

On the 250 below 10000 question--Socal approach always tells us to maintain 280 when we're well below 10000. Some of them are nice enough to say "maintain 280 when able", but most don't. I wonder how often people just blow through 250? Do you have to gently remind people of the speed restriction often?

This time of year the CRJ's are manageable ... they climb ok and they take vectors pretty good. During the summer they can be tough to work. It all depends on the sector... sectors where you are taking handoffs from approach and have to climb A/C out of say 10K for FL's is where they really under-perform.

I only work one sector where I get A/C below 10K and that is to feed approach. I don't really worry about the speed below 10K, all I do is restrict them at the arrival fix if approach says something. Approach sometimes just yells over the line ~> 250 KNOTS ! ... that is usually because someone went over the fix at 300+ knots. As I mentioned in an earlier post I only see ground speed, I have no idea what you're indicating. The only way I can tell if someone is cheating is when I'm setting up in-trail spacing or sequencing for arrival. If need be I do gently remind them like you mentioned... the old N1234 verify 250 knots or say airpeed.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by TonyC

Some airplanes are designed such that they cannot safely comply with the normal speed limits, and they are specifically exempted. I seem to recall the limit for the T-38 was 300 knots. I don't know what it might be for an F-16, but 350 seems to be on the high side.

You may be remembering the test program and Houston's George Bush Intercontinental. That test program has ended, and speed limits are back to normal.
.

That's the program I am thinking of. As far as 350 for the 16's I will double check to make sure it wasn't a "War Story".

[fish314]

Another exception for the military is in airspace specifically designated for military training, like MOA's and MTR's (Military operating areas and Military training routes).

This could be of interest to civilian guys, because VFR traffic can fly through a MOA without talking to anyone, but there could be military jets in there going 500 knots indicated. Same thing is true on a low-level training route (MTR) except now that military guy is going faster than 250 indicated at 500' AGL or less.

[Beers]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

Yup, and that's why we use the speeds we do. We've got so many variations in the fleet that we've just taken the lowest possible numbers for any of our Navajo/Chieftains and use them across the board.

It'd sure be a lot easier to fly if we could cross the FAF at 150.

Slight hijack, but I'm curious as to what some of the differences are between a Navajo and Chieftain. I have no time in either and have always been curious.

[jtrain609]

Different usable fuel amounts, different HP outputs of the engines (because of different sized turbo's), generally a different electrical system, number of stall strips on the right wing, elevator trim positions for takeoff, length (The Chieftain is 2 feet longer), number of seats when in a passanger configuration, gross weight, number calipers on the brakes on the mains, suck open doors in case of turbo failure on the Navajo, speeds, power settings...uhm...I'm gonna stop listing difference, I could go on for a while.

[Bandit_Driver]

just got the word for an F-16 IP. They are allowed to go 300 KIAS below 10K.

[kellwolf]

Originally Posted by seagull

Same for arrival -- they might not be aware that we're going to be unable to get much under 170kts indicated before touchdown!

I always wondered where MEM approach got "Maintain 170 kts until the marker." That makes sense since you guys are probably barrelling in behind us.

On behalf of the RJ drivers, I'm sorry our plane sucks at high altitudes and during the summer. It's Canadian.

[Mike734]

Pilots routinely exceed 250 in Europe. All you do is ask for "high speed" and, if they can, they will approve it. I have been in the jumpseat of a Sabena 737 doing 330 at 3000AGL on a extended arc, base to final. It makes for an interesting approach.

[staplegun]

Years ago had an approach controller at LGA tell us, "tailwinds authorized!"

Kevin