Forced to assign an arrival

[Bandit_Driver]

Just the other day I was flying from ALOto YIP and was given the following clearance.

DJB LAN DIRECT YIP. Once handed off to to Chicago they said they had change and need to give us the obligatory LAN.SPRTN3 arrival and of course we are immediately vectored off the arrival at lansing by DTW.

1. Did they really have to assign us an arrival?

2. Why didn't the ATC computers assign the right route before leaving ALO?

[surreal1221]

1) Maybe, fluctuates with daily route capacity. May have just helped the flow for the time spent on the actual arrival.

2) If the route you filed is in the system as an approved route, along with the one with the STAR, it wouldn't need to put you on the arrival. There are multiple approved routes for certain airport pairs. The one you filed, and the one with the STAR may very well be authorized and approved so the computer may have not tought to change your original to the "other" approved routing.

[triple7]

Probably had to make it "legal". I overhead on DCA tower last night "medex 1521 we are gonna make this legal so its gonna be 'join the washington 185 radial on departure and maintain 5000'". He immediately gave them a new heading once airborne.

[Fox Xray]

I'm not familiar with this area but there are numerous reasons you could have been issued that routing. One question ... do you fly that route often ??? If you do is that the first you have been hit with that routing ?

A wild guess is that it might be an LOA thing. Also ... what type of A/C were you in, that can play a factor also (prop vs jet).

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

I'm not familiar with this area but there are numerous reasons you could have been issued that routing. One question ... do you fly that route often ??? If you do is that the first you have been hit with that routing ?

A wild guess is that it might be an LOA thing. Also ... what type of A/C were you in, that can play a factor also (prop vs jet).

B-727, The STAR is fairly common in the area, but we normally don't get it late at night. I have flown that route a few dozen times but we don't regularly fly those city pairs. I am now guessing, like others, it may have been a technicality or something.

[Fox Xray]

I should have assumed the type A/C based on your avatar ... nice situational awareness on my end

It very well could have been a supervisor working the position getting his monthly K time... we always joke that the worst times to fly are on Sundays and when the traffic is slow... that is when all the sups get their required hours on a sector.

[CFIse]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

1. Did they really have to assign us an arrival?

2. Why didn't the ATC computers assign the right route before leaving ALO?

Because still deep in the back of many controllers long past and distant memory are the hours they spent at the Academy running things no radar. It's the same as the "keep everything legal" comment - if it all goes down the tubes, lost radar, lost comms. at least if people are on assigned routes, STARs etc. the controllers have a fighting chance of avoiding a noise abatement issue (have you heard the noise two airplanes make when they hit, old joke).

I don't know where ALO is, but the center host computers are very old and creaky and don't have the memory available you'd like to think that, oh, say a 1980's vintage PC had. So while each host has the basics of the airspace covered by the other hosts they don't have all the details, so sometimes they don't pick up on the details of an arrival. Or - this is a local controller/center issue and NONE of the hosts know about it. Hard to say, ATC is 50% art, 50% science.....

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

I should have assumed the type A/C based on your avatar ... nice situational awareness on my end

In the words of Carlos Mencia Dee Dee Dee JUST KIDDING...

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

It very well could have been a supervisor working the position getting his monthly K time... we always joke that the worst times to fly are on Sundays and when the traffic is slow... that is when all the sups get their required hours on a sector.

May have been.

I was glad there was sup on duty when the new Ground Controller at IAD (Dulles) got this all messed up and backed up in the spring of 06 The sup managed to get things back to near normal in about 30 minutes.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by CFIse

Because still deep in the back of many controllers long past and distant memory are the hours they spent at the Academy running things no radar. It's the same as the "keep everything legal" comment - if it all goes down the tubes, lost radar, lost comms. at least if people are on assigned routes, STARs etc. the controllers have a fighting chance of avoiding a noise abatement issue (have you heard the noise two airplanes make when they hit, old joke).

I don't know where ALO is, but the center host computers are very old and creaky and don't have the memory available you'd like to think that, oh, say a 1980's vintage PC had. So while each host has the basics of the airspace covered by the other hosts they don't have all the details, so sometimes they don't pick up on the details of an arrival. Or - this is a local controller/center issue and NONE of the hosts know about it. Hard to say, ATC is 50% art, 50% science.....

ALO = Waterloo Iowa and YIP = Ypsilanti, MI (just west of Detroit Metro)

[adreamer]

Hey, Bandit, you are not the only to be assigned on Spartan 3. Took my student out on IFR x-c flights. I have been also assigned with Cruxx4.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Put no stars in your remarks. Hahahaha!

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by adreamer

Hey, Bandit, you are not the only to be assigned on Spartan 3. Took my student out on IFR x-c flights. I have been also assigned with Cruxx4.

Got to love it. It is good experience for them...

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

Put no stars in your remarks. Hahahaha!

I wish that would work...Should also try Direct only...operational necessity...

[casey]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

I wish that would work...Should also try Direct only...operational necessity...

hah, we had an issue getting a clearance out of iah one day to rsw, they wanted to put us on a gulf deepwater route (and we have a 50nm offshore limitation) and they could not get a good routing from center so we finally settled on "iah bpt4.btr radar vecotors srq" and then into rsw. center had some words for us when we finally go to them (and tried to put us back on the overwater route), but it got us where we were going

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by casey

hah, we had an issue getting a clearance out of iah one day to rsw, they wanted to put us on a gulf deepwater route (and we have a 50nm offshore limitation) and they could not get a good routing from center so we finally settled on "iah bpt4.btr radar vecotors srq" and then into rsw. center had some words for us when we finally go to them (and tried to put us back on the overwater route), but it got us where we were going

I hate that when they can't get a/c limits through their heads. We had the problem twice going up to HPN (White Plains, NY) from IAD (Dulles). ATC kept trying to take us too far out over the Atlantic for traffic.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

I hate that when they can't get a/c limits through their heads. We had the problem twice going up to HPN (White Plains, NY) from IAD (Dulles). ATC kept trying to take us too far out over the Atlantic for traffic.

Which way did you get routed to HPN ... over BOUNO or RICED ?

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

Which way did you get routed to HPN ... over BOUNO or RICED ?

RICED.RICED2 from IAD...it was our preferred route...when wx or limitations didn't allow we had to go over the land route to the West of JFK and ATC kept us low 3000-7000 MSL. This route was always nightmare for us due to constant TA/RA's...

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Bandit_Driver

RICED.RICED2 from IAD...it was our preferred route...when wx or limitations didn't allow we had to go over the land route to the West of JFK and ATC kept us low 3000-7000 MSL. This route was always nightmare for us due to constant TA/RA's...

RICED makes sense... though I'm not sure how far too far over the Atlantic is for going over RICED ? Were you vectored far out to the east enroute to RICED ? We (ATC) really don't know an A/C's limitations... during swap it is very common for A/C to get off the ground on routes they can't fly due to equipment limitations.

A lot of the traffic from the south will also see routing via SIE..BOUNO.

Going west of the NYC area big 3 metros you will get treated like a red headed step child ... I know traffic destined places like KBLM and KTTN get forced low (4000') far out to the east then fly west a long way at low altitude to get under the NY metro arrivals.

I hear you on the problems flying low going west for HPN... it's a KNOWN problem with no fix in sight. That whole NY / northeast needs such a major change but it is so political it will most likely never happen. It's my understanding that there has been an airspace redesign effort in place for better then a decade that hasn't gotten off the drawing board.

[Seggy]

Originally Posted by Fox Xray

Going west of the NYC area big 3 metros you will get treated like a red headed step child ... I know traffic destined places like KBLM and KTTN get forced low (4000') far out to the east then fly west a long way at low altitude to get under the NY metro arrivals.

Yeah, you mentioned KBLM. Thats where I learned to fly and instruct out of. I've probably talked to you at some point.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Yeah, you mentioned KBLM. Thats where I learned to fly and instruct out of. I've probably talked to you at some point.

Eh... maybe... maybe not. The sectors I work are at the FL's ... we transition A/C to some of those terminals, we start em' down and flash them on. When you advise a crew of a C750 who is not familiar with the arrival of where they can expect to be level at 4000' you get some interesting reactions.