ATC Service Complaint . . .

[mtsu_av8er]

If I remember correctly, there's a form that you can use to complain about ATC service, or a particular controller. I know that controllers have bad days too, but it's not appropriate to take it out on pilots.

Anybody know where I can get such a form?

[DE727UPS]

I know of no such form.

Next time, ask the controller for his operating initials and the facility phone number. Controllers working a position use operating initials when communicating with other controllers. When I worked for the FAA, sometimes when I was at home, I'd hang up the phone saying "DE" instead of "goodbuy".

Otherwise, the best thing you can do is call the facility. Give them the EXACT freq and time, along with your complaint. You want to talk to quality assurance or a supe. Go for as high up the food chain as you can.

[goindownthepipes]

Hey Lloyd, what happened? Lemme guess, it was Miami Approach that pissed you off.

Will

[Fox Xray]

DE727UPS information is right on. I will add a word of caution that once you start the ball rolling on an official investigation you will be looked at as well. I'm in no way trying to discourage you from following through on anything, I don't know anything about what happened to you, just that I have seen things backfire on both sides (controllers on pilots and pilots on controllers).

Most of the time you will be able to resolve the problem by speaking to the supervisor of the areas in which you had the problem.

[wheelsup]

You could also do a NASA form. I think those are also for things like this, not just for "oh crap I might lose my license!!".

[timeoff]

If you call and speak to the supe, you will more than likely be talking to the controllers buddy. Controllers are pretty tight and work together every day. That might not get you the desired results.

If it is truly a serious issue, you need to actually put it in writing and send it certified mail to the facility or regional manager. You would be initiating a formal complaint which will require them to formally respond to you. There is a protocol that involves pulling tapes and compiling a formal report.

Bottom line, these managers know that controllers are under a great deal of stress and that complaints are just a part of the job/nature of the biz. If it wasn't safety related, they probably won't pursue it any further with the controller (unless the controller has had similar complaints).

[Fox Xray]

Under the present FAA the odds that the supervisor will be the controllers buddy is slim to none.

I'm in no way suggesting that a complaint not be filed. IMHO we are all professionals working in a complex and at times a high stress environment, as such I think the first step to handling something is to offer a professional courtesy. Problems often can be settled by the two parties working it out. Now, there are cases where this isn't possible. I don't know what happened and like any profession, I work with some zero's. I used to work with a guy that spoke down to pilots in such a way that it was embarrassing, I hated working with him. Of course in the wisdom of the FAA he was promoted to supervisor, he presently is my supervisor...

If you belong to a pilot union maybe try handling things through those back channels...

[TeddyG]

Agreed Sup's and controllers friends, not by a long shot. I will say if your going to put in a complaint make sure that you're 100% in the clear if not it's going to be spun back onto you maybe resulting in a pilot deviation. I'm not saying that will happen but us controllers don't like getting called out by pilots. We have a job to do and although some sarcasm can be avoided, it's just a part of the biz.

[jtrain609]

That doesn't sound like a very safe system. It's not very comforting know that I'm accountable but you're not. At least that's what it sounds like with what you're saying.

Originally Posted by TeddyG

Agreed Sup's and controllers friends, not by a long shot. I will say if your going to put in a complaint make sure that you're 100% in the clear if not it's going to be spun back onto you maybe resulting in a pilot deviation. I'm not saying that will happen but us controllers don't like getting called out by pilots. We have a job to do and although some sarcasm can be avoided, it's just a part of the biz.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

That doesn't sound like a very safe system. It's not very comforting know that I'm accountable but you're not. At least that's what it sounds like with what you're saying.

We are extremely accountable ... I know people that have received letters in their files, time on the street, and even termination. My point is if ATC did something dangerous or failed to provide a safety related service then by all means pursue it. If it's because you got yelled at then I would pursue a more informal method of complaining, like talking to the supe or going through your union, have one of your reps contact a Natca rep. I am in no way defending yelling at a pilot, I'm just trying to pass along some info, that pursing a formal type of investigation with the FAA has the potential to turn over many rocks.

The FAA is my employer and I trust them less then anyone... look at the way they treat those that work for them ... do you think they will treat you any better ???

[jtrain609]

Oh for sure man, I trust the FAA about as far as I can throw it. In fact I hate the idea of formal investigation when it comes to *most* situations because I simply don't think it's warrented. I just don't dig the, "If I'm going down, so are you" attitude. We all make mistakes and I think it's much better to try to work things out in a more informal way (no matter who makes the mistake) than to try to screw everybody involved, because truth be told a pilot is going to do something on every single flight that they could get violated for. Whether it's coming off their altitude by more than 100' or missing something insignifigant on their preflight, we'll do something on every flight that could get action taken against us (in my aproximiation).

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by timeoff

If you call and speak to the supe, you will more than likely be talking to the controllers buddy. Controllers are pretty tight and work together every day. That might not get you the desired results.

If it is truly a serious issue, you need to actually put it in writing and send it certified mail to the facility or regional manager. You would be initiating a formal complaint which will require them to formally respond to you. There is a protocol that involves pulling tapes and compiling a formal report.

Bottom line, these managers know that controllers are under a great deal of stress and that complaints are just a part of the job/nature of the biz. If it wasn't safety related, they probably won't pursue it any further with the controller (unless the controller has had similar complaints).

Yeah, you are way off the mark on that one. Don't hesitate to call the facility and talk to the sup or the area manager. Start there.

[Fox Xray]

Originally Posted by jtrain609

I just don't dig the, "If I'm going down, so are you" attitude.

Welcome to the FAA my friend. Why do you think Natca is always battling the agency ??? You cannot imagine what goes on in dealing with the FAA. We (controllers) feel this more then anyone, The FAA will introduce some new non working piece of hardware, we begin using it with minimal training on the components of the system we need to know, then something happens, an error. Now the witch hunt begins... if they can find any reason to find fault in the controller's performance we buy it, if they cannot and it's due to their latest billion dollar piece on non-working hardware it gets swept under the rug.

I'm not saying it's right, it is simply the way it is. I have seen good people burned on both sides of the mic. The original poster did not mention what happened, if a controller vectored him into a thunderstorm or a mountain, then yea, he obviously has a point.

[timeoff]

Originally Posted by daveatc

Yeah, you are way off the mark on that one. Don't hesitate to call the facility and talk to the sup or the area manager. Start there.

Which part? Supes being friends with controllers? Granted I have never worked for the FAA and maybe things are different today. My father is a retired controller/tower chief and all my info comes from him (60s thru late 90's). Sorry if I was wrong.

[TeddyG]

Yeah I maybe my words were misinterpreted. It's not your the bad guy(pilot) I'm the good guy. I would never tell a pilot to not follow up with a formal complaint if it's something that holds weight ie loss of separation no safety alerts and traffic advisories. By all means it's your life that we're talking about as a pilot I would make the call. Don't waist your time however with something petty like why did your controller taxi him first if I called first or why is he before me in the departure line up. The sup or CIC(controller in charge) is going to pick up the phone and be like yeah, uh huh, got it I'll talk to him/her and that's as far as it's going to go. Once you call the facility manager I make it a formal complaint and are persistent ie follow up. They have no choice to flip over every rock and investigate. So again don't hesitate if you feel your life is in danger. I personally am cool with the pilots I rather have them on my side when squeeze plays are warranted and I need them to shine. Best of luck to all

[mtsu_av8er]

Will, how did you guess that it was MIA?

It wasn't a safety issue or anything. It was Thursday afternoon, coming out of FXE. I had to wait 15 minutes for a clearance, and then I had to hold short for 15 more minutes for a release. The weather was pretty crummy, and there was that NASA TFR up towards Orlando. So, after I departed and the frequency calmed down, I simply asked if there was a problem that I needed to know about, and if there were going to be anymore delays down the pipe. We'll just say that she was clearly offended that I would question the quality of the service I was being provided, and decided to spout off a little bit.

I was tempted to say some pretty nasty things, but instead I just asked for her initials and went about my day.

I'm not going to pursue it - it's not worth it. but, if she's unhappy with her job, I'll tell her the same thing I'll tell a bitter pilot. Go and do something else. I'm not giving her any "inconvenience" by expecting efficient service and a decent attitude. That's what she's getting paid for.

Oh, well . . . . I'll be gone next week . . .

[wildfreightess]

So, Lloyd, can we trade our Tower Nazi for your Tower Nazi?

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by mtsu_av8er

Will, how did you guess that it was MIA?

It wasn't a safety issue or anything. It was Thursday afternoon, coming out of FXE. I had to wait 15 minutes for a clearance, and then I had to hold short for 15 more minutes for a release. The weather was pretty crummy, and there was that NASA TFR up towards Orlando. So, after I departed and the frequency calmed down, I simply asked if there was a problem that I needed to know about, and if there were going to be anymore delays down the pipe. We'll just say that she was clearly offended that I would question the quality of the service I was being provided, and decided to spout off a little bit.

I was tempted to say some pretty nasty things, but instead I just asked for her initials and went about my day.

I'm not going to pursue it - it's not worth it. but, if she's unhappy with her job, I'll tell her the same thing I'll tell a bitter pilot. Go and do something else. I'm not giving her any "inconvenience" by expecting efficient service and a decent attitude. That's what she's getting paid for.

Oh, well . . . . I'll be gone next week . . .

I used to work at HWO. I think I know who you're talking about. Not a happy lady. Sorry you had to run into that crap. I always hated hearing that on the freq. No need for it. Oh well. Not everyone is a professional.

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by timeoff

Which part? Supes being friends with controllers? Granted I have never worked for the FAA and maybe things are different today. My father is a retired controller/tower chief and all my info comes from him (60s thru late 90's). Sorry if I was wrong.

It's not that they aren't friendly or friends with them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll overlook the problem.