You wanna do what???

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 14:58

Just kind of funny because all I could think of is TopGun.

I was doing maneuvers out East of KCNU about 20 miles today and I called center for a block 3000-6000 to do some spins. I guess I should have just said maneuvers in the block but I said spins. The controller comes back and says "You wanna do what???"

Anyways no big deal, it just gave me a chuckle. ATC is great watching out for us out there.

meritflyer · November 22nd, 2006, 15:06

spins are fun until you know someone personally who bit the big one doing them.

bike21 · November 22nd, 2006, 15:22

Were these spins legal? Don't want you to get in trouble out there!

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by bike21

Were these spins legal? Don't want you to get in trouble out there!

Well, I have a spin endorsement, my instructor who was with me has one also. The plane is plackarded as spins being acceptable. Altitude was not an issue. So yeah they were legal.

Flysher · November 22nd, 2006, 15:43

as long as he had a parachute and the plane was certified for them then sure he was legal.

I think I remember that if you are doing them towards a rating ( IE your CFI) then you dont need the parachute.

EatSleepFly · November 22nd, 2006, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

spins are fun until you know someone personally who bit the big one doing them.

That has to be one of the single stupidest things I've ever heard. I've lost a couple acquaintances to this flying thing, it's still fun (especially aerobatics). 1 friend on a motorcycle, 1 on a bicycle- still fun. Skydiving, yup, definitely still fun. Driving- fun sometimes. You go ahead and lock yourself in your closet, I'll be out having fun.

meritflyer · November 22nd, 2006, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

That has to be one of the single stupidest things I've ever heard. I've lost a couple acquainances to this flying thing, it's still fun (especially aerobatics). 1 friend on a motorcycle, 1 on a bicycle- still fun. Skydiving, yup, definitely still fun. Driving- fun sometimes. You go ahead and lock yourself in your closet, I'll be out having fun.

You may feel a little bit different if it was a friend of a decade instead of some "acquaintances".

Consider spell check next time.

EatSleepFly · November 22nd, 2006, 17:02

Oh, pardon me.

And no, I wouldn't.

meritflyer · November 22nd, 2006, 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

Oh, pardon me.

And no, I wouldn't.

You're excused and good for you.

bike21 · November 22nd, 2006, 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertdog71

Well, I have a spin endorsement, my instructor who was with me has one also. The plane is plackarded as spins being acceptable. Altitude was not an issue. So yeah they were legal.

Was it for training? (see below)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfleisher

as long as he had a parachute and the plane was certified for them then sure he was legal.

I think I remember that if you are doing them towards a rating ( IE your CFI) then you dont need the parachute.

Yep. D-Dog you gotta have a parachute if it is not for training for the CFI certificate. Just watchin' out for ya that is all

EatSleepFly · November 22nd, 2006, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by bike21

Was it for training? (see below)

Yep. D-Dog you gotta have a parachute if it is not for training for the CFI certificate. Just watchin' out for ya that is all

Actually that's not correct, but I have a big ass burrito in front of me and don't feel like typing, so someone else can hash it out. Or not. Just an observation...

bike21 · November 22nd, 2006, 17:44

I thought someone might call this out

I know this has been hashed out many many times. I think people read between the lines too much. From the AC...

"301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167."

It is not required for any rating except CFI, therefore in my view not legal.

EatSleepFly · November 22nd, 2006, 17:51

So teaching stall/spin awareness is only required for CFI candidates? Interesting.

bike21 · November 22nd, 2006, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatSleepFly

So teaching stall/spin awareness is only required for CFI candidates? Interesting.

No no no

Not awareness, actual spins.

EatSleepFly · November 22nd, 2006, 17:58

Well, I've never seen anything proving- including your post above- that you must have a parachute to give spin training to a candidate for ANY certificate. I wonder if there is an FAA legal interpretation? I used to spin with any student that wanted to. An unintentional spin is an emergency, and proficiency with emergency procedures is required for all certificates. I think that was the conclusion I came to when I last researched it, but it's been awhile since I last did any instructing.

mtsu_av8er · November 22nd, 2006, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by meritflyer

spins are fun until you know someone personally who bit the big one doing them.

Driving, too. And walking down the street. And flying ILS approaches. And sleeping. And boating. And skateboarding. And lighting a grill. And installing satellite dishes.

I've lost friends doing all of the above. Most are still fun to me!

jrh · November 22nd, 2006, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bike21

No no no

Not awareness, actual spins.

Doing actual spins is considered a valid form of "awareness" training.

See Advisory Circular 61-67C, Stall and Spin Awareness Training, Page 14, paragraph (b). It clearly says spin training is legal, with or without parachutes, regardless of if the training is for a CFI certificate, another certificate or rating, or just general training with no particular goal in mind.

Basically, as long as a CFI is giving instruction, spins are 100% legal.

Why is this not more commonly understood?

Ian J · November 22nd, 2006, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrh

Doing actual spins is considered a valid form of "awareness" training.

See Advisory Circular 61-67C, Stall and Spin Awareness Training, Page 14, paragraph (b). It clearly says spin training is legal, with or without parachutes, regardless of if the training is for a CFI certificate, another certificate or rating, or just general training with no particular goal in mind.

Basically, as long as a CFI is giving instruction, spins are 100% legal.

Why is this not more commonly understood?

I don't know. I've read a lot about this too, and it's pretty clear. Just a common misconception I guess. Nothing JC can't fix, though.

(And that's JetCareers, not the other JC.)

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 19:40

Well, I am prepping for a CFI ride on Thursday next week. So I would consider that as training. AS I am sure you know a spin sign off is not a get out of jail free card for the checkride. PTS clearly says the Examiner MAY ACCEPT in Lieu of performing the TASK.

I was practicing for the CFI ride in the company of my instructor in an airplane plackarded for spins at altitudes of 4000-5000 AGL, so in my eyes completely legitimate and legal.

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 19:43

More importantly, it changes nothing about the funny statement by the controller.

Ian J · November 22nd, 2006, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertdog71

More importantly, it changes nothing about the funny statement by the controller.

Yeah, I guess your thread did just get hijacked there...

The important question is, did you request a flyby on your way in?

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Yeah, I guess your thread did just get hijacked there...

The important question is, did you request a flyby on your way in?

No fly by. Those aren't allowed either.

Ian J · November 22nd, 2006, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertdog71

No fly by. Those aren't allowed either.

Not without parachutes, three endorsements, and EDITED (funny, but inappropriate.)

desertdog71 · November 22nd, 2006, 19:59

Goes something like this. "Chanute Traffic Twin Comanche NXXXXX MYYER inbound on the GPS 36 Approach...low pass only Chanute"

bike21 · November 22nd, 2006, 20:15

Ok ok, apologies for the hijack

And yes, center's comment was funny!

Since you are doing training, for the CFI certificate I see no problem there. Good on ya for being extra ready.

One last thing, I will let'er rest

Can anyone find a legal ruling and/or for sure statement. I want the issue to come to rest for myself and be 100% clear on the matter for other ratings. I loved teaching spins, and if I know I can do them legally then I see no problem teaching the John Q. Pilot how do them safely.

November 22nd, 2006, 14:58	#1
desertdog71 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KIDP/KCNU Posts: 3,005	You wanna do what??? Just kind of funny because all I could think of is TopGun. I was doing maneuvers out East of KCNU about 20 miles today and I called center for a block 3000-6000 to do some spins. I guess I should have just said maneuvers in the block but I said spins. The controller comes back and says "You wanna do what???" Anyways no big deal, it just gave me a chuckle. ATC is great watching out for us out there. __________________ www.flywhiteair.com http://www.myspace.com/desertdog71 Following message is for SkyCougar. Took my chances on a big jet plane, Never let them tell you that they're all the same.

November 22nd, 2006, 15:06	#2
meritflyer Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Winchestertonfieldville Posts: 6,240	Re: You wanna do what??? spins are fun until you know someone personally who bit the big one doing them. __________________ The simplest answer tends to be correct.

November 22nd, 2006, 15:22	#3
bike21 Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: People's Republic of Boulder Posts: 2,140	Re: You wanna do what??? Were these spins legal? Don't want you to get in trouble out there! __________________ "A man is not considered wise because he talks a lot" - The Dhammapada

November 22nd, 2006, 15:43	#5
Flysher Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: LCK Posts: 444	Re: You wanna do what??? as long as he had a parachute and the plane was certified for them then sure he was legal. I think I remember that if you are doing them towards a rating ( IE your CFI) then you dont need the parachute.

November 22nd, 2006, 17:02	#8
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: You wanna do what??? Oh, pardon me. And no, I wouldn't.

November 22nd, 2006, 17:44	#12
bike21 Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: People's Republic of Boulder Posts: 2,140	Re: You wanna do what??? I thought someone might call this out I know this has been hashed out many many times. I think people read between the lines too much. From the AC... "301. SPIN TRAINING AND PARACHUTES. Part 91, section 91.307(c), prohibits the pilot of a civil aircraft from executing any intentional maneuver that exceeds 60° of bank relative to the horizon, or exceeds 30° noseup or nosedown attitude relative to the horizon, unless an approved parachute is worn by each occupant (other than a crewmember). Section 91.307(d) states, in pertinent part, that section 91.307(c) does not apply to flight tests for a pilot certificate or rating; or spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by a certified flight instructor (CFI) or an airline transport pilot (ATP) instructing in accordance with section 61.167." It is not required for any rating except CFI, therefore in my view not legal. __________________ "A man is not considered wise because he talks a lot" - The Dhammapada

November 22nd, 2006, 17:51	#13
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: You wanna do what??? So teaching stall/spin awareness is only required for CFI candidates? Interesting.

November 22nd, 2006, 17:58	#15
EatSleepFly Old Skool Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: ?? Posts: 4,600	Re: You wanna do what??? Well, I've never seen anything proving- including your post above- that you must have a parachute to give spin training to a candidate for ANY certificate. I wonder if there is an FAA legal interpretation? I used to spin with any student that wanted to. An unintentional spin is an emergency, and proficiency with emergency procedures is required for all certificates. I think that was the conclusion I came to when I last researched it, but it's been awhile since I last did any instructing.

November 22nd, 2006, 19:40	#19
desertdog71 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KIDP/KCNU Posts: 3,005	Re: You wanna do what??? Well, I am prepping for a CFI ride on Thursday next week. So I would consider that as training. AS I am sure you know a spin sign off is not a get out of jail free card for the checkride. PTS clearly says the Examiner MAY ACCEPT in Lieu of performing the TASK. I was practicing for the CFI ride in the company of my instructor in an airplane plackarded for spins at altitudes of 4000-5000 AGL, so in my eyes completely legitimate and legal. __________________ www.flywhiteair.com http://www.myspace.com/desertdog71 Following message is for SkyCougar. Took my chances on a big jet plane, Never let them tell you that they're all the same.

November 22nd, 2006, 19:43	#20
desertdog71 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KIDP/KCNU Posts: 3,005	Re: You wanna do what??? More importantly, it changes nothing about the funny statement by the controller. __________________ www.flywhiteair.com http://www.myspace.com/desertdog71 Following message is for SkyCougar. Took my chances on a big jet plane, Never let them tell you that they're all the same.

November 22nd, 2006, 19:59	#24
desertdog71 Old Skool Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KIDP/KCNU Posts: 3,005	Re: You wanna do what??? Goes something like this. "Chanute Traffic Twin Comanche NXXXXX MYYER inbound on the GPS 36 Approach...low pass only Chanute" __________________ www.flywhiteair.com http://www.myspace.com/desertdog71 Following message is for SkyCougar. Took my chances on a big jet plane, Never let them tell you that they're all the same.

November 22nd, 2006, 20:15	#25
bike21 Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: People's Republic of Boulder Posts: 2,140	Re: You wanna do what??? Ok ok, apologies for the hijack And yes, center's comment was funny! Since you are doing training, for the CFI certificate I see no problem there. Good on ya for being extra ready. One last thing, I will let'er rest Can anyone find a legal ruling and/or for sure statement. I want the issue to come to rest for myself and be 100% clear on the matter for other ratings. I loved teaching spins, and if I know I can do them legally then I see no problem teaching the John Q. Pilot how do them safely. __________________ "A man is not considered wise because he talks a lot" - The Dhammapada

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