Exiting a runway on to the active runway

[flyboy04]

Well just when i think i have this stuff down something comes up that makes me unsure. When landing on runway that intersects another active runway, my normal instinct is to turn left or right at the first exit and get off the runway, would this be ok if the first exit was an active runway, or could this mess things up big time? OR should i always stay on the runway until im told to exit because if this is so ive been doing it wrong for some time . Im interested to know what you guys think.

[EatSleepFly]

The answer to your question is in the AIM. 4-3-20.

[daveatc]

That was always one of my pet peeves. NEVER exit onto another runway, active or otherwise. 1) It's contrary to the AIM, but 2) It's a bad habit. Harmles (relatively) if that runway is inactive, but if it's active, that is a Class A waiting to happen. Can't go wrong with a taxiway, unless otherwise directed by ATC.

[flyingmaniac]

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER exit onto another runway unless you want tower to rip you another one. I did that once before and will never do it again.

[Dazzler]

I once landed at an airport and was told by tower to turn left off the runway on to another runway, and contact ground.

When I contacted ground, they were like "You do realise you're on a runway???"

[Goldmember]

Both times I landed at Kalamazoo Michigan, I was Instructed (on my progressive taxi) to turn left onto another runway off the active and didn't touch taxiway until basically I was right in front of the FBO. Granted, less traffic there, and runway winds, AND tower was the same guy as ground...The other runway was just the easiest way to get to where I was going. It was a straight shot and the taxiway system from where I was would have led me in a huge circle around the airport.

cheers.

[BobDDuck]

Tower will often have you exit onto a runway or advise you that a runway is available for exit. Happens all the time in DCA when landing 1 and turning off on 33/15 or landing 19 and turning off on 4/22. However, if tower doesn't say anything, I wouldn't be making that turn. Same thing with taking a reverse high speed.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Goldmember

Both times I landed at Kalamazoo Michigan, I was Instructed (on my progressive taxi) to turn left onto another runway off the active and didn't touch taxiway until basically I was right in front of the FBO. Granted, less traffic there, and runway winds, AND tower was the same guy as ground...The other runway was just the easiest way to get to where I was going. It was a straight shot and the taxiway system from where I was would have led me in a huge circle around the airport.

cheers.

That's pretty typical, depending upon who is working tower/ground (when combined). There is a taxiway (foxtrot) that is parallel to that runway (9/27), but it is skinnier than most and they will often (usually?) send planes down the runway instead. FBO is at the west end of 9/27.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by flyboy04

Well just when i think i have this stuff down something comes up that makes me unsure. When landing on runway that intersects another active runway, my normal instinct is to turn left or right at the first exit and get off the runway, would this be ok if the first exit was an active runway, or could this mess things up big time? OR should i always stay on the runway until im told to exit because if this is so ive been doing it wrong for some time . Im interested to know what you guys think.

I think you need to sit down and revisit this with a CFI. This is basic information that you need to understand clearly.

[flyboy04]

I am a CFI, and ive always went to the next taxiway unless instructed otherwise ,but there was a situation where had I made the runway, the guy behind me wouldnt have been so close, and it was almost as if the tower had planned on my exit at the runway. This question was meant more contollers and i guess i couldve been a little more clear on the question. Thanks for the replies.

[Bandit_Driver]

I personally never exit onto another runway unless Specifically told to do so by ATC. As said earlier, too much potential for a "Class A"

[DE727UPS]

What about when the tower says "right turn when able, ground point nine" and the next right turn happens to be a runway? I just did it in SDF, 35L onto 29, and nobody said a word about it.

[surreal1221]

Did it a few weeks back at FLO. Wasn't a problem at all. Granted, during all my ATC-CTI training, I was under the assumption that it was a no-no. Now as a pilot, I've been told that it isn't an issue by some, while it is an issue to others. I still consider it an issue, and will only do it after making sure it's okay according to whoever is in the TWR cab.

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

What about when the tower says "right turn when able, ground point nine" and the next right turn happens to be a runway? I just did it in SDF, 35L onto 29, and nobody said a word about it.

That is just WRONG. It's wrong on the part of ATC to allow you to do that. 100% wrong. Can I beat this drum any louder? ATC was wrong to not say something to you. 'Right turn when able' does not supercede the AIM instruction telling you 'next available taxiway.' ATC fully contributed to you developing a bad and unsafe habit.

Okay, you do it at SDF and maybe those crossing runways are inactive and no big deal 99 times out of 100. Look at the layout of KHWO. I worked there for a while and we would run the parallels all the time, and if the wind was reasonable, we would land people on the crossing runways with the anticipation of you clearing that intersection. Here you come with SDF on the brain, you take the turn onto the crossing active runway right after I've cleared a guy to roll. Seem like a bad situation? You do it all the time at your airport and then you come to my airport and do it out of habit and kill somebody. Bad pilot! BAD!

I will get up on my soapbox on this one. DO NOT EVER TURN ONTO A RUNWAY WHEN EXITING YOUR RUNWAY UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED OR APPROVED BY ATC. "When able, turn left, contact ground .8. Runway 18L available for your taxiing, blah blah blah." This is a huge accident waiting to happen. I don't care if you do it and ATC doesn't say anything. They are wrong as well.

I don't want this to sound like I am jumping into your backside specifically. I know it happens and ATC lets it slide. We all need to work harder to do the right thing according to the regs sometimes, and this is just one of those issues where just a little effort on everyone's part will save someone's life one day. How many accidents are the result of minor deviations from accepted practices that snowball into something horrible?

Thus endeth the sermon. </rant>

[DE727UPS]

You can jump on my backside all you want. I learned something from this thread.

If it's that big a deal, I'm not sure how I somehow got this far in my aviation career without it being impressed upon me as being as important as you think it is. I was an ATA at LA Tracon at one time and on my pilot groups ATC liason committe, too.

I know what anticipated seperation is, but it seems a word to the landing aircraft to hold short of your intersection would make more sense. If I can make it to a safe speed to turn off onto a runway I can hold short of it, too. No big deal. Or tell the lander on final to expidite across your intersection and a specific turnoff to take.

It's one of those things where you're right that the pilot shouldn't have done it but a simple word to the wise would have kept everyone in the loop.

A good example is when I'm told to "taxi to a runway", that's a clearance to cross any "non-active" runway on my way. So, how do I know a runways active or not? Does it have to be on the ATIS? My understanding is that the local controller can make a runway active anytime it suits him. How's the pilot supposed to know?

I've got yelled at maybe ten times for bothing ground with a clairification on a runway crossing and never yelled at for what you're yelling at me for. Guess it's not a perfect system, eh?

[mrivc211]

Originally Posted by daveatc

That is just WRONG. It's wrong on the part of ATC to allow you to do that. 100% wrong. Can I beat this drum any louder? ATC was wrong to not say something to you. 'Right turn when able' does not supercede the AIM instruction telling you 'next available taxiway.' ATC fully contributed to you developing a bad and unsafe habit.

Okay, you do it at SDF and maybe those crossing runways are inactive and no big deal 99 times out of 100. Look at the layout of KHWO. I worked there for a while and we would run the parallels all the time, and if the wind was reasonable, we would land people on the crossing runways with the anticipation of you clearing that intersection. Here you come with SDF on the brain, you take the turn onto the crossing active runway right after I've cleared a guy to roll. Seem like a bad situation? You do it all the time at your airport and then you come to my airport and do it out of habit and kill somebody. Bad pilot! BAD!

I will get up on my soapbox on this one. DO NOT EVER TURN ONTO A RUNWAY WHEN EXITING YOUR RUNWAY UNLESS SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED OR APPROVED BY ATC. "When able, turn left, contact ground .8. Runway 18L available for your taxiing, blah blah blah." This is a huge accident waiting to happen. I don't care if you do it and ATC doesn't say anything. They are wrong as well.

I don't want this to sound like I am jumping into your backside specifically. I know it happens and ATC lets it slide. We all need to work harder to do the right thing according to the regs sometimes, and this is just one of those issues where just a little effort on everyone's part will save someone's life one day. How many accidents are the result of minor deviations from accepted practices that snowball into something horrible?

Thus endeth the sermon. </rant>

Thanks for that. I too made this mistake today for the first time, I was landing at KSMX on 30 and got off at 20. When I turned and realized what I had done, I was cursing myself inside. It sets a bad example for the other guy/gal as well as poses a risk to safety.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

A good example is when I'm told to "taxi to a runway", that's a clearance to cross any "non-active" runway on my way. So, how do I know a runways active or not? Does it have to be on the ATIS? My understanding is that the local controller can make a runway active anytime it suits him. How's the pilot supposed to know?

?

I don't think "active" or "non-active" has anything to do with the clearance. The "taxi to" clearance allows you to cross any runway the taxi route intersects enroute to your assigned runway.

As far as the "after landing" procedure...the AIM states that you must receive an "authorization" from ATC before exiting onto another runway. Probably good form here, would be to have the controller specifically state the runway to exit onto. In absence of that specification... I think it would be questionable to exit onto the runway. Albeit, very confusing verbage when stated, "turn right next exit...blah, blah, blah"...if the next exit is a runway.

[Dazzler]

I think it all depends on the airport you're at. I once asked a tower controller at my local airport the same thing, and he said that if they tell a pilot to "turn left when able" then that would include a runway.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

I don't think "active" or "non-active" has anything to do with the clearance. The "taxi to" clearance allows you to cross any runway the taxi route intersects enroute to your assigned runway.

I disagree. If you combine your statement and UPS's statement I would agree.
My understanding is a "taxi to" clearance authorizes you to cross any runway EXCEPT the runway mentioned in the clearance. It's in the AIM somewhere, maybe someone can find it and point it out.

Maybe you meant this (inferred by saying "enroute to your assigned runway) but I just wanted to clarify for the benefit of others.

A good example is CHS (diagram below). Starting out at the terminal (A) taxing to runway 15 (B), ground typically says "taxi to runway 15". That's it. There is one controller who reiterates "taxi to runway 15, hold short of runway 15" but just one. I've put arrows where you would cross 15/33, it would be the pilots' job to hold short of that runway regardless if a hold short is issued or not.

[B767Driver]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I disagree. If you combine your statement and UPS's statement I would agree.
My understanding is a "taxi to" clearance authorizes you to cross any runway EXCEPT the runway mentioned in the clearance. It's in the AIM somewhere, maybe someone can find it and point it out.

Maybe you meant this (inferred by saying "enroute to your assigned runway) but I just wanted to clarify for the benefit of others.

A good example is CHS (diagram below). Starting out at the terminal (A) taxing to runway 15 (B), ground typically says "taxi to runway 15". That's it. There is one controller who reiterates "taxi to runway 15, hold short of runway 15" but just one. I've put arrows where you would cross 15/33, it would be the pilots' job to hold short of that runway regardless if a hold short is issued or not.

Your clarification is my intention. Still...If I'm cleared to taxi to a runway...I'm cleared to cross everything enroute to that runway...unless restrictions are given by ATC. Active/non-active are not terms used in this matter.

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by B767Driver

Your clarification is my intention. Still...If I'm cleared to taxi to a runway...I'm cleared to cross everything enroute to that runway...unless restrictions are given by ATC. Active/non-active are not terms used in this matter.

You are correct. 'Taxi to Rwy .....' gives you the right to cross any and all runways/taxiways EXCEPT the Runway you are instructed to taxi to. Active, inactive, taxiways, all fair game.

I don't know why a controller would tell someone to hold short of the runway they're assigned. That does two bad things. Forces you to have to say 'holding short,' and also could get you in the habit of NOT holding short since you weren't told to previously. This may seem silly to some of the more experienced drivers here, but to someone with less time under their belt, it might not seem that out of reason.

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by Dazzler

I think it all depends on the airport you're at. I once asked a tower controller at my local airport the same thing, and he said that if they tell a pilot to "turn left when able" then that would include a runway.

No, they are improperly applying the reg. Honestly, if they did that in front of an evaluator, they'd get popped for it. Talk to the FAA evaluators. If they want to make that runway available to you, they have to specify permission to taxi on that runway, not just say 'left turn when able.' Again, you do it at your home airport because lazy controllers say it's okay. You then fly to my airport and do it and I am using that runway and you kill someone. That's what can happen, and that's why the procedure is in place to require a positive control of actually putting that plane on another runway instead of a taxiway. It is flat out wrong and the controller who said that to you is wrong.

"Left turn when able, taxi on RWY18L pilot's discretion." Something that specifically addresses that runway. Look at how runways are handled in the ATC environment. All the hold shorts. All the positive control. All the readbacks. They are in place for a reason. Runway Incursions are a HUGE issue. HUGE training issue. We do tons of training on how to prevent them. If you have such a desire to take that turn onto another RWY, just ask on roll out, "Can I taxi via RWY34?"

And DE727UPS, in regards to the Land and Hold Short (LAHSO) you mentioned, you can't always do that. There are a lot of requirements that have to be met, in terms of airfield markings, training for controllers, LOAs, etc to allow that operation. It doesn't exist by default at airfields. Personally, I'd rather have you roll through it and come out on the other side rather than roll the dice and try to get you to hold short, it's wet, you miss it, etc, etc. There are ways around it, like once you're established on roll out, I can say 'continue taxiing, hold short of runway 18R,' but that is a really fine line there that I'd only use in very rare circumstances, if at all.

[B767Driver]

DaveATC,

I think it's just important to clarify...that after landing...when ATC says " turn right when able..." this is not authorization to exit onto a runway. This is somewhat confusing and probably worth reiterating. For the pilot to exit onto a runway...the runway must be specifically stated. Is this correct?

Thx.

Edit: I think you just did on your above post. Thanks for your time and effort.

[vheissu]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

I disagree. If you combine your statement and UPS's statement I would agree.
My understanding is a "taxi to" clearance authorizes you to cross any runway EXCEPT the runway mentioned in the clearance. It's in the AIM somewhere, maybe someone can find it and point it out.

Maybe you meant this (inferred by saying "enroute to your assigned runway) but I just wanted to clarify for the benefit of others.

A good example is CHS (diagram below). Starting out at the terminal (A) taxing to runway 15 (B), ground typically says "taxi to runway 15". That's it. There is one controller who reiterates "taxi to runway 15, hold short of runway 15" but just one. I've put arrows where you would cross 15/33, it would be the pilots' job to hold short of that runway regardless if a hold short is issued or not.

Just to be 100% clear on this. When getting your instructions to taxi to 15 you would get on alpha taxiway, and HOLD SHORT RWY 15 before getting a clearance to cross the runway and continue your taxi, and the same for the other crossing across RWY 15?? Just want to be sure about something this important...

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by vheissu

Just to be 100% clear on this. When getting your instructions to taxi to 15 you would get on alpha taxiway, and HOLD SHORT RWY 15 before getting a clearance to cross the runway and continue your taxi, and the same for the other crossing across RWY 15?? Just want to be sure about something this important...

you got it!

It's a weird situation because of the restricted area on the west side of the field (it's not often that you have to cross your runway prior to getting there), but perfectly illustrates the whole "taxi to XX" situation and how important it is to know where you're going and understand what the AIM says about stuff like this!