Emergency?!?

[SIUav8er]

OK, heres what happened: Took off on an IFR clearance out of EMT in southern california. 5 minutes later i lost my alternator (tried to fix it for few minutes, but nothing...I was running on the battery). Anyway, I told approach that I needed to return to EMT due to "electrical system PROBLEM".

That was fine. The controler asked what my intentions were and seeing a hole in th overcast, I canceled IFR, shot down beneath the clouds and flew back to the airport VFR. Contacted the tower at the normal VFR reporting point, was claed to land just like normal. No special/priority handling by ATC. As I roll off the runway, i noticed the parade of fire trucks and ambulances all waiting for me and when I contacted ground control they asked if anyone on board was hurt or needed help. Thats when i realized something was up. Turns out that the tower controller declared an emergency for me.

Luckilly i was on a Tower enroute IFR clearence so they didnt have my name. I dont want this type of thing asociated with my flight record etc.

My question is WHY did the controller feel the need to make that descision for me when there was nothing close to an emergency situation? Since when is returning to the airport for a relatively mundane mechanical problem an emergency requiring multiple fire trucks and rescue personell? Especially when me, as pilot in command, didnt even hint that I needed any type of help!

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Luckilly i was on a Tower enroute IFR clearence so they didnt have my name. I dont want this type of thing asociated with my flight record etc.

WHY THE HELL are civilian pilots SO afraid of the E-word, or even being associated with it? It's not a stigma at all, and shouldn't be treated as such.

My question is WHY did the controller feel the need to make that descision for me when there was nothing close to an emergency situation? Since when is returning to the airport for a relatively mundane mechanical problem an emergency requiring multiple fire trucks and rescue personell? Especially when me, as pilot in command, didnt even hint that I needed any type of help!

Their perogative. Probably declared a precautionary due to electrical problem/IFR being vague enough for him/her to think it necessary. Sometimes they ask, sometimes not. You should make clear to ATC if you wish to not declare an IFE. Plus, the fire department has nothing to do anyway...nice to run the trucks a bit.

I don't know why civvies are afraid to delcare IFEs if need be, or get offended if it's done as a precautionary. Same thing I see with civvies that get offended by a military or joint-use field tower that gives a "check wheels down" advisory prior to landing clearance.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by MikeD

WHY THE HELL are civilian pilots SO afraid of the E-word, or even being associated with it? It's not a stigma at all, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Im not affraid to declare an emergency. I never said I was. I just dont understand why an emergency was declared FOR ME.

Originally Posted by MikeD

I don't know why civvies are afraid to delcare IFEs if need be, or get offended if it's done as a precautionary. Same thing I see with civvies that get offended by a military or joint-use field tower that gives a "check wheels down" advisory prior to landing clearance.

Ill tell you why. If I actually had a situation that warrented me to decalare an emergency, I would have no problem with this "precaution"...although, if I had an actual emergency, bet your ass that I would decalare!

I am simply wondering why the controller did this. Is this SOP for anything "abnormal" happening while flying under IFR?

I also dont understand the harsh response MikeD. You almost seem annoyed by my question. Chill out man!

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Im not affraid to declare an emergency. I never said I was. I just dont understand why an emergency was declared FOR ME.

Not saying you are personally, but I see this idea a lot; and your post was a good lead-in for me to pose the question, that's all.

Ill tell you why. If I actually had a situation that warrented me to decalare an emergency, I would have no problem with this "precaution"...although, if I had an actual emergency, bet your ass that I would decalare!

I am simply wondering why the controller did this. Is this SOP for anything "abnormal" happening while flying under IFR?

I also dont understand the harsh response MikeD. You almost seem annoyed by my question. Chill out man!

No no! Aren't annoyed at all at YOUR question. Your question is a good one and I'm sure many wonder why this happens and how this works. YOUR post is good; I was just, again, posing some extension-questions that relate to your post of feelings I see from a good number of pilots out there, and I don't know why there is that type of feeling.

An ATC guy can answer your question better to the specifics, I just know that ATC can declare if they see a potential need to. It's one of those things of no harm/no foul if the trucks are called out and not needed, vice if something happens, and time is spent getting the trucks out of the station (former ARFF firefighter MikeD talking here). That's all. And again, we have nothing else to do anyway!

Nothing harsh here to you partner; and apologize if it came across that way. Just soap-boxing on the back of your posting...

[Ian J]

I just posted something like this a few weeks ago. Alt failure, IMC. Found a hole, got VMC, landed no issue. Never declared because I never thought it was nessecary. If I was stuck IMC, sure. Parade of fire trucks followed me to parking... tower's decision.

Declaring is no big deal... it is for our safety. I certainly would have, if I thought it nessecary.

Glad to know I'm not the only one getting alt failures in the clouds though...

[SpiraMirabilis]

A lot of the times on smaller airports like EMT (only 1 runway if I recall) the emergency response people don't have much to do so they like to use any justification to get a little practice.

Thats my guess anyway.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

A lot of the times on smaller airports like EMT (only 1 runway if I recall) the emergency response people don't have much to do so they like to use any justification to get a little practice.

Thats my guess anyway.

LOL. Thats what I mean

Bored firefighters are a dangerous thing. Stuff starts getting broken, pranks start happening, etc, etc.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Luckilly i was on a Tower enroute IFR clearence so they didnt have my name. I dont want this type of thing asociated with my flight record etc.

A little more clarification, just so we don't perpetuate a misconception - even if you were on a standard IFR flight plan where your name was accessible, this kind of thing would not be put on "your record". Doesn't matter whether you declared the emergency, or ATC did it for you, it would not end up in your file. Your name might be on the report that is generated (governments run on paperwork, you know), but it would not, in any way, be considered a "black mark".

In contrast, declaring an emergency in this type of situation is just the kind of thing that interviewers like to have applicants talk about. It shows good use of all available resources, and it is much better to say "I had lots more help waiting for me than I needed. That is a much better result than not asking for help and ending up wishing I had."

There is no down side to declaring an emergency and not needing the help. There are really, really big down sides to the opposite.

[daveatc]

Most controllers are not pilots. As such, we don't always have a thorough understanding of the implications of various system failures. So, to err on the side of caution, if in doubt, ring it out. Ring that crash phone. I know that might wrinkle some pilots, as they are in charge, but when it comes to safety, we should go above and beyond.

The reg gives us controllers a VERY broad latitude in declaring for a pilot. All we have to do is say "In our judgment, the situation warranted it." No one will ever criticize a controller for ringing it out when they don't need to. Also, it may be a tower policy. That is also a possiblity. From a liability standpoint, especially if it's a contract tower, they will ring it out if they even think for a millisecond there's a possibility of things not working out well.

My recommendation is to flip the situation around. Envision the younger, less experienced pilot who might not be as savvy as you. Maybe a little hesitant to say "Emergency." They get in over their head. We've all heard of it, seen it, been there, etc. They don't say "emergency," and they definitely should have. Wouldn't it be better to have someone make that call for you? That's the way controllers should be thinking. Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by daveatc

Most controllers are not pilots. As such, we don't always have a thorough understanding of the implications of various system failures. So, to err on the side of caution, if in doubt, ring it out. Ring that crash phone. I know that might wrinkle some pilots, as they are in charge, but when it comes to safety, we should go above and beyond.

The reg gives us controllers a VERY broad latitude in declaring for a pilot. All we have to do is say "In our judgment, the situation warranted it." No one will ever criticize a controller for ringing it out when they don't need to. Also, it may be a tower policy. That is also a possiblity. From a liability standpoint, especially if it's a contract tower, they will ring it out if they even think for a millisecond there's a possibility of things not working out well.

My recommendation is to flip the situation around. Envision the younger, less experienced pilot who might not be as savvy as you. Maybe a little hesitant to say "Emergency." They get in over their head. We've all heard of it, seen it, been there, etc. They don't say "emergency," and they definitely should have. Wouldn't it be better to have someone make that call for you? That's the way controllers should be thinking. Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.

Agree with you and Steve. Wish it were the normal way of thinking.

[Fox Xray]

I can say many negative things about the FAA but one thing they are good with is emergencies, you will not got in trouble for declaring. You will not get grilled by the Feds asking if you really needed to declare one.

Operationally declaring an emergency helps us out, the seas are parted for an emergency A/C. We also get piece of mind, imagine how the tower controller would have felt if something happened at the field and rescue were parked in their stalls... Dave hit the nail on the head, hope for the best but plan for the worst.

Take a cue from the military and airline guys, they declare any time they have the slightest problem.

[mtsu_av8er]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

A lot of the times on smaller airports like EMT (only 1 runway if I recall) the emergency response people don't have much to do so they like to use any justification to get a little practice.

Even at larger airports!

I was at BNA one day heading out for departure, and an aircraft reported that he was having a problem and was headed back to the airport. The tower controller was talking with the fire trucks on 121.9 and advised them that they may be needed. Well, after a few minutes, the pilot reported that everything was kosher, but that he was still inbound, and did not need the trucks. So, the controller passed that word to the trucks.

The response? "Mind if we roll the trucks anyway? We're completely bored, and could use the excitement"!!

[adreamer]

Well, I had encountered an emergency during takeoff roll(engine failure). I asked left seat guy(PF) for declaring emergency. He refused. He said there are too many papers to be filled out if we declare emergency.

My question is What kind of paper work will need to be filled out? When are we require to fill out those papers?

[BobDDuck]

In *most* situation in non commercial ops there probably isn't any paperwork. I've declared 3 times now and never had to fill out anything. I called tower on a landline on the second 2 just to make sure everything was ok and to thank them for the help. As long as there is no aircaft damage or anything chances are you won't have to do anything. In a commercial ops environment chances are you are going to be feeling out at least an ops report for your company if not more.

As far as not declaring when an engine stops spinning (even if you have another one), not the brightest thing in the world.

[SpiraMirabilis]

LOL. Engine failure on take off roll is like the dictionary definition of when to declare an in flight emergency because it is in fact an in flight emergency :P
Well, unless you haven't rotated yet I guess it wouldn't be "in flight" but if I were in the Tower I'd be curious why that GA plane just started taking off and then stopped.

[KLB]

I had an alternator fail in VFR (severe clear) last week as my student and I were leaving the pattern at FTW. I didn't declare an emergency. I contacted the tower and told them of the situation. I told them that it wasn't and emergency, but they still rolled the trucks. I just figured they wanted the practice. Since the pattern was empty at the time, they cleared me as if it was an emergency. After I landed, I was followed to the ramp by a truck or two. They got my name and tail number just for their records. I joked with the firemen a little bit about them just wanting to practice and was on my way.

[ATC RET 2003]

As a general rule, I would not declare an emergency if the pilot said it was NOT one... however, information like that is passed on immediately to all who will be affected (next sectors/positions, plus the supervisor) and any among those also have the ability to override the pilot and declare it as an emergency.

As for rolling the trucks, most CFR folks where I worked preferred to skip the "standby at the firehouse" mode and go straight to the runway... not just for practice, but for the event that a "routine non-emergency" quickly escalated into a bona-fide "we better do something fast" situation. The response time is significantly reduced if the crash trucks are on the scene before the aircraft arrives.

Like many other respondents, I know of no situation where anyone was chastized for declaring an emergency.

[SIUAv8r]

this topic seems to be recurring lately. I posted about this about a month ago (alternator failure, fire trucks were waiting). In the future I dont think ill be as hesitant to declare.

[mtsu_av8er]

Never any shame in it!

[Looking4Lower]

Wait a minute, I thought this thread was about this: