Class B ad lib?

[triple7]

So, here is an interesting scenario I encountered yesterday while doing some maintenance ferries. I am based out of JYO(nw of IAD and under class b shelf) and our maint is done at HEF(s/sw of IAD under bravo). I usually fly about an 8 dme arc(sfc area is 7dme off armel vortac) and navigate between a familar road and a prominent mountain ridge. Lately Potomac controllers have been somewhat grumpy...not all of them, but just some. Anyways, the way to HEF was uneventful. I flew at 1200 msl below bravo along rt 15 and bull run at between 7.5 and 9 dme. The way back the controller told me that I "would not enter class bravo"(understandable) and "would not fly closer than 10 dme to AML"....not so cool. This "detour" added an extra 20 mins to my trip, and I was already tight to get back for a student. Now my question. If I were anywhere else that I didnt need to talk to approach(becasue of ADIZ) they would have had no control of me as long as I was clear of class B. But since I had to talk to them because of the ADIZ they felt the need to control me, even though radar services are rarely provided and I was VFR. If I had had the balls to say unable and not comply what enforcement action might they have been able to pull? woudl I have violated any regs? I figure the airplane is no place for a pissing match so I let it go, but I just felt it was a tad unfair so I wanted to get a prof opinion. Isnt the bravo set up to keep VFR guys clear of arrivals and departures? I know there is a nw runway I would be flying through the departure corridor but seeing how I was below the tops of a ridge I am pretty sure they wouldnt come close to hitting me...prob hit the ridge if anything. thanks

[casey]

its class E under the Bravo, but being ADIZ i wouldnt want to get into it with potomac either. I used to run the 8 mile arc around AML from HEF and over to GAI when approach wouldnt let me in and east of IAD, fun times. God forbid when we had to do that trip IFR.... HEF..CSN..MRB..EMI..GAI

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Technically, they are not in control of you unless you're inside the Class B. Its been a while since I moved away from Virginia, but my experience with the ADIZ consisted of the controllers stating "squawk code observed" when you were showing the assigned code (keep in mind, I was entering the ADIZ, not operating from two airports within). This is not the same as "radar contact" which puts you "under their control". You, being VFR, never have to comply with an ATC instruction if you are not in their airspace, but like you said, I wouldn't get in a pissing match with Potomac inside the ADIZ. Controllers often neglect the "suggest" part of their instruction to VFR aircraft. Just as a tower controller without radar cannot vector an aircraft, an approach controller cannot issue headings or altitudes to a VFR aircraft that is not within the lateral boundaries of their airspace. They can only suggest headings, because the ultimate responsibility of navigation and collision avoidance lies with the pilot.

If you want to discuss it, call the facility and speak with the manager.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by TFaudree_ERAU

If you want to discuss it, call the facility and speak with the manager.

Exactly. It may take a week or two for someone to get back to you, but this is the best advice. Just be up front, polite, and ask if this is something that is in an SOP, or a NOTAM someplace. Otherwise, how are you to know to maintain the 10DME arc as opposed to the 8 around the SFC area.

[Fox Xray]

Due to the UN meeting there have been a ton of TFR's and other stuff going on I cannot post about. I know there have been a ton of A/C that violated the TFR's and WERE scrambled on. There very well may have been something like that in effect.

I would advise against challenging the controllers on this, mainly because we are just the mouthpieces in these instances, very often supervisors or managers are monitoring the sectors during these times and giving orders. Homeland security can get involved as well as other agencies. I am in no way saying that you are wrong, just to pick your battles.

Once on the ground contact the facility and explain that you are simply looking for clarification to understand the operation. If they give you a hard time or blow you off then contact your local politicians and AOPA. Write letters to the editor, get your story out.

The new motto in the FAA is that you are no longer a "user" of the system, you are now a "customer" and like any business if you are unhappy with the service then make a complaint.

Just don't pick your battle on frequency, you will never win that way. Make a note of the day, position, frequency (to ID the sector), and any other pertinent info and save that info to use later in your complaint.

[Van_Hoolio]

E-mail Randy Horner: Randolph.Horner@faa.gov

I got dicked around getting back into the ADIZ a couple weeks ago and got some satisfaction with the response I got. He works for Potomac and handles complaints. Let him know time, place and frequency. He can pull the tapes and see what happened. If no one complained, nothing would get done about matters like this.

Another strategy is to deny having GPS or VOR/DME capibility, and tell them you want to remain clear of Class B over a known route. Or you could ask to terminate radar services, but remain on the code and frequency for the ADIZ everytime they tell you to go out of your way.

Mike

[triple7]

I went on a tour of Potomac tracon yesterday and brought up this question to an active controller in that sector, as well as randy. I was pleased with the response I got. That is one thing PTC is very good about...customer satisfaction and improving services. I will email the QC woman tommorrow for someone to look into this, but the reaction i got was "he had no right to do that.....you can train ability but you cant train attitude...we have been working to fix that problem for a while...." its all very clear to me now that this particular guy was "just having a bad day"...we will see. thanks for all the insight.

[dingo222]

I ageee, that airspace around IAD has been really hectic lately. I got a groundhold in CHO for an hour on my way to IAD on a clear and a million day. I wouldn't pick a fight in the air either. Everytime i've had a problem with a controller, I just noted the time, date, and location and gave them a call afterwards. I had the same type of problems with Socal appr sometimes. In their defense, they are working a tons of IFR arrivals and departures, so when they get to a VFR aircraft, I can see how they would just start to move them around like an IFR one without even thinking about it. Who knows, give them a ring and see what happens!