SHortcuts..

[rausda27]

I was thinking the other night after the 5 or 6th Southwest flight asked for shortcuts and got denied, how exactly do controllers determine whether or not they can approve a direct-to shortcut?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by rausda27

I was thinking the other night after the 5 or 6th Southwest flight asked for shortcuts and got denied, how exactly do controllers determine whether or not they can approve a direct-to shortcut?

obviously southwest is using their profit to purchase fuel hedges this month instead of buying off the controllers

[rausda27]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

obviously southwest is using their profit to purchase fuel hedges this month instead of buying off the controllers

I dont know why they even bother..every time Southwest checks in they ask for shortcuts..By now I am sure the controllers are expecting a request.

[jonnyb]

Originally Posted by rausda27

I dont know why they even bother..every time Southwest checks in they ask for shortcuts..By now I am sure the controllers are expecting a request.

I know, it's quite annoying actually. I'm sure most if not all center controllers know that Southwest will take a shortcut any chance they can get one.

[BobDDuck]

There are very few times I've ever heard anybody turn down a short cut. I have a few times if we are going to be heavy on gas on landing, but that is rare.

I love when SWA is speed restricted behind you and they ask for faster and ATC asks you what your best speed would be. "Uh... we are restricted to 280 today". Is that wrong?

[EDUC8-or]

Yeah, it sure seems like most of the time when SWA asks for a shortcut they get it. I can even remember on several occaisions going into BNA getting slowed by the center while doing 320 so SWA who is on another transition on the arrival but behind us doing 290 can go first.

Also saw them land the other day on 35 in PHL. Hmm...

[casey]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

Also saw them land the other day on 35 in PHL. Hmm...

you should see CAL 75's doing the circle to 29 at EWR

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by casey

you should see CAL 75's doing the circle to 29 at EWR

It's not so much the arrival but rather the short runway (I know, midway is shorter and they go in there all day, but there isn't another option there).

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by casey

you should see CAL 75's doing the circle to 29 at EWR

That's 6800' of runway. PHL's 35 is 5460', and MDW's 13L is 5141'. At MDW you don't have an option for a 10,000' runway.

Believe it or not, a 75 has better landing and stopping performance than a 73. Those double tandems have lots of braking power.

[FlyChicaga]

You also see EMB-145s, DC-9s, A320s, B737s, B757s, B767s, B777s, and B747s doing the circle-to-land runway 29 at EWR. Yes, B747s. Subracting the displaced threshold, 29 at EWR is not 6800 feet long. You'll have about 5400' for the rollout on 29. At MDW on 31C, you'll have 4925' for the rollout. Not sure about 35 at PHL, since I do not have my Jepps. But I'm sure they were fine, since they have an OPC (On-Board Performance Computer) behind the pilot seats to check landing performance data. Now they check it without thrust reverse as well, from what I understand, due to the MDW accident.

[jonnyb]

Believe it or not, a 75 has better landing and stopping performance than a 73. Those double tandems have lots of braking power.

Even more than that, I would attribute it to the 75's wing. Obviously very efficient and at typical landing weights, the 75 has very slow ref speeds.

[EDUC8-or]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

You also see EMB-145s, DC-9s, A320s, B737s, B757s, B767s, B777s, and B747s doing the circle-to-land runway 29 at EWR. Yes, B747s. Subracting the displaced threshold, 29 at EWR is not 6800 feet long. You'll have about 5400' for the rollout on 29. At MDW on 31C, you'll have 4925' for the rollout. Not sure about 35 at PHL, since I do not have my Jepps. But I'm sure they were fine, since they have an OPC (On-Board Performance Computer) behind the pilot seats to check landing performance data. Now they check it without thrust reverse as well, from what I understand, due to the MDW accident.

I thought 29 at EWR has about 6500' available for landing, but I go there as little as humanly possible at my company so I might not be right on.

I'm sure their OPC said they could do it, it just didn't seem to conservative to fly an approach to a shorter runway where there are tall ships passing on the river and you have to bring it in pretty low and plant it on the numbers when there is a nice long runway available.

[casey]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

I'm sure their OPC said they could do it, it just didn't seem to conservative to fly an approach to a shorter runway where there are tall ships passing on the river and you have to bring it in pretty low and plant it on the numbers when there is a nice long runway available.

thats more what i was getting at in my comparison. You have about 1000' more in EWR after the displaced threshold than PHL, but its the circle that makes it fun. Keep it in tight (JFK/LGA are right next door) and dodge the shipping cranes at the docks.

As for being conservative, they are probably helping out taking 35. I dont go into PHL often so i cant say for sure, but taking 11/29 in EWR helps thier acceptance rate and in some cases can cut down on holds/ground delays for other aircraft when they start running into volume problems (ie, every inbound bank).

[BobDDuck]

The day SWA starts landing 26 in PHL I'll start having problems. Of course, Air Jamaica tried that in a 321 last year. They finally washed off the skid marks two months ago. Apparently they confused 26 with 27R.

[flywithUS]

Originally Posted by EDUC8-or

Also saw them land the other day on 35 in PHL. Hmm...

Naw, that's nothing. Many times ATC gives them an option if they want 35 for a quicker arrival, and many do take it. I've landed on 35 on a 733 with US once, no biggie.

I love watching the 170's land on 26. It's really neat seeing such a "big" plane landing with so much ease on a small runway.

[flywithUS]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

The day SWA starts landing 26 in PHL I'll start having problems. Of course, Air Jamaica tried that in a 321 last year. They finally washed off the skid marks two months ago. Apparently they confused 26 with 27R.

Did he actually land?

[Fox Xray]

As for shortcuts it depends on so many factors... the controller, the controller at the next sector, how busy the sector is, etc.

I work with guys that never give em' and others who give one to everyone they can. I try and accommodate if the request is not outrageous and it does not negatively impact anyone.

As for SWA getting more that may be due to them flying into the lesser known airports. I know one of the sectors I work SWA is the only major carrier going into a specific airport so their shortcut requests can be accommodated a bit more. Keep in mind that due to the airports they fly to they do not get caught up in GDP's either.

[ATC RET 2003]

I agree with Fox Xray... especially the part about not negatively impacting anyone.

One more thing... if it works for all involved and for me, too... it'll probably be approved before you even ask for it!