Visual Approach Following Traffic

[BobDDuck]

I'm probably just overlooking something basic but...

Several times (ok, most of the time) going into Charlotte, approach will say somthing like

"Traffic 2 to 3 oclock. Airport 1 oclock 10 miles. Report either the traffic or the airport in sight."

If we respond that we have the airport they clear us for the visual number what ever, following the traffic. That makes sense.

However, if we just report the traffic they often say (and I'm not sure I am getting the phrasing right

"Following the traffic, cleared for the visual approach to runway XX."

Now, I was under the impression to be cleared for a visual you must have the runway complex or the runway in sight. In this instance we only have traffic we are following in sight and have no idea where the runways are. I mean, we do have the pretty white line getting us there on the MFD, but I don't think that counts.

[Minuteman]

5-4-22. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight. This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial. Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-22

Sound reasonable and within the spirit of the visual approach ... just hope the guy ahead of me knows where he's going.

[meritflyer]

As mentioned above - For the visual you must have

1) 1000 ft. ceiling and 3 sm visibility; and
2) The airport in sight or the preceeding aircraft.

Chances are the aircraft in front of you will have the airport in sight.

[DE727UPS]

"I was under the impression to be cleared for a visual you must have the runway complex or the runway in sight"

That is incorrect. You only need to see the following aircraft and not necessarily the airport.

Visuals can be a can of worms and I won't take one unless I see the traffic, the correct runway, have the warm fuzzies about it, and am familiar with the airport. I've pissed off many an arrival controller cause I just won't play.

I refused to play in DEN not long ago when United was taking them left and right. I'm not that familiar, there were clouds in the area, there were multiple runways going the same direction, and I just wasn't comfortable with it. ATC annoyingly had to give us a box pattern back around for the ILS. Probably cost us 10 minutes and the controller wondering what was my major malfunction.

I have no regrets and would do it again.

[jonnyb]

Yeah Don, I mean are we up here cause they're down there or are they down there cause we're up here?

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

As mentioned above - For the visual you must have

1) 1000 ft. ceiling and 3 sm visibility; and
2) The airport in sight or the preceeding aircraft.

Chances are the aircraft in front of you will have the airport in sight.

Also, cannot clear an a/c for a visual if the lead aircraft is a heavy or a B757.

[BobDDuck]

As I said... I was probably missing something. Thanks for clearing that up. I knew you couldn't do it behind a heavy which was leading me to believe you couldn't do it at all.

[meritflyer]

What are the standards to follow heavy aircraft in?

[daveatc]

It depends on where you're talking about. EnRoute standards are different than terminal are different than non-radar, etc, etc. The rule of thumb is to apply minimum wake turbulence separation, issue a cautionary and let it flow from there.

However, I misspoke a bit earlier. Need to learn how to read the full question! You cannot tell an aircraft to maintain visual separation following a B757 or a Heavy. However, you can clear them for a visual approach to follow a B757 or a Heavy as long as the required wake turbulence separation is maintained. You can never go wrong with 6 miles in trail, which is the highest minimum separation. This is probably one of the biggest gray areas in ATC. It is very difficult to enforce in a tower environment, even with STARS or a DBRITE, especially if you go with 3 minutes rather than 6 miles. It's all academic really, but most controllers I know go with 6 miles in trail.

[rickyrhodesii]

Here’s a simple breakdown for Visual Approaches I like to use when I’m training a new controller. (All taken from the FAAO 7110.65 Ch. 7 Sec. 4)

Weather Requirements
Weather at the airport of intended landing must be VFR. However, to VECTOR an aircraft for a visual approach, the reported ceiling must be at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is 3 miles or greater.

So, what if we can’t vector them for a visual approach due to weather?
Simple, we vector them for ILS/VOR/GPS etc., approach and when they report the airport (without a control tower) or runway in sight, you clear them for the visual approach.

When can I issue a clearance for a visual approach?
Controllers may initiate or pilot may request a visual approach when the pilot reports:

• The airport or runway in sight at airports with operating control towers
• The airport in sight at airports without a control tower.

What if there are multiple aircraft involved? When can I clear the aircraft?

• The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, OR
• The aircraft is following a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight, instruct them to follow it.

What if the aircraft is number 2 and he has the airport in sight but not the preceding aircraft?
Clear the aircraft for the Visual approach, but radar separation must be maintain until visual separation can be provided.

DE727UPS, there's more info on approaches to mulitple runways if you'd like to give it a look!

Hope this helps!

[DE727UPS]

Couldn't get the link to work without modification.

Try this: www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#7-4-4

"What if the aircraft is number 2 and he has the airport in sight but not the preceding aircraft?
Clear the aircraft for the Visual approach, but radar separation must be maintain until visual separation can be provided"

That sounds like a bad idea. You're saying you see the airport but not the traffic and would accept a visual? No way I'd do that. I'm not that good at TCAS self seperation yet...hehe. You might get me to play if you promise me a vector and speed for spacing until I see him.

Another thing controllers need to understand about visuals is the sun could be in the wrong place and sometimes that makes it really hard to see traffic.

We need to get the controllers back in the cockpit for observation rides and we need to get pilots into the ATC facilities to see how things work. I think some pilots would be humbled....

[DE727UPS]

"It depends on where you're talking about. EnRoute standards are different than terminal are different than non-radar"

I didn't know you could use visual seperation in the EnRoute environment.

[Bandit_Driver]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

We need to get the controllers back in the cockpit for observation rides and we need to get pilots into the ATC facilities to see how things work. I think some pilots would be humbled....

They should design a program that put a controller in the JS for day and then have the pilots plug in for day with the controllers. I sat in with a controller back in college and was amazed how hard there job was at times. I was impressed with all the balls they juggle at once.

[daveatc]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"It depends on where you're talking about. EnRoute standards are different than terminal are different than non-radar"

I didn't know you could use visual seperation in the EnRoute environment.

Yep.

• b. EN ROUTE. You may use visual separation in conjunction with visual approach procedures. Visual separation may also be used up to but not including FL 180 when the following conditions are met:

• 1. Direct communication is maintained with one of the aircraft involved and there is an ability to communicate with the other.
  

• 2. A pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed to maintain visual separation from it as follows:
  

(a) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft including position, direction and unless it is obvious, the other aircraft's intentions.


(b) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot that the other aircraft is in sight.


(c) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual separation from that aircraft.


(d) Advise the pilot if the radar targets appear likely to converge.


(e) If the aircraft are on converging courses, inform the other aircraft of the traffic and that visual separation is being applied.


(f) Advise the pilots if either aircraft is a heavy.


(g) Traffic advisories and wake turbulence cautionary advisories shall be issued in accordance with para 2-1-20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary Advisories, and para 2-1-21, Traffic Advisories.



And yes, we should both absolutely be doing 'fam flights' with each other. It would make life much easier.

[BobDDuck]

Interesting addition to this...

I was going into Allentown, PA two nights ago. I couldn't find the airport from the angle we were coming in at. We were number three for the runway behind a Colgan Saab and a ABX 727. We never saw the Saab but did find the 727. The captain called it in sight and then we were cleared for the visual. By the time I found the runway (I had the ILS up anyways) the 727 was throwing out the anchor and I had to scramble to keep us 3 miles behind him. Of course our ref speed is about 25 knots faster then his anyways. Moral of the story was we got about 150AGL and got blasted by his wake and ended up going around. Would have being delayed in the vectoring until I actually had the runway in sight have helped? Probably not, but just an interesting side note to this thread.