Career Choices

[Cessna Driver]

Hi Everyone,

My first post here at JC, although I've been reading them quite a bit lately, and learning a lot.

A bit about me, and then I'd like to solicit some advice!

I just graduated from Embry Riddle through the Distance Learning Program, so the 4 year degree is finally done. It wasn't financially possible for me to fly AND go to school, so now I'm looking at flight training options. I do already have my private pilot certificate, but want to flying for a living someday.

I'm looking really hard at ATP's 90 day program, possibly starting in January sometime. I'm figuring at least $45,000, maybe $50,000 by the time its all said and done. I know the program is $39,995 right now, but you have to factor in food, misc. expenses, and examiner's fees, etc. These loans would be with SLM, and possibly Wells Fargo...the going rate is 12-14% now - with great credit. There is so much I like about ATP, but those rates and 20 year terms are daunting.

Another option is (believe it or not) to go through an in-state community college, where I can enroll in aviation ground school classes that have associated “flight labs.” These labs are considered to be a class, and as such I would be able to use my remaining VA benefits for them. Whatever the VA didn’t cover would qualify for federal loans (5-7% with 10 year terms). Through the community college I could get my instrument and commercial over the course of the next 12 -18 months or so, and then always go to another school (such as ATP) to get the CFI with Instrument and Multi-engine add-ons in a matter of weeks.

The downside to this local route is the longer period of time to obtain the same ratings that would be possible in 90 days with ATP. Going the local route would mean I would earn my CFI in March or so of 2011. With ATP I could have it done by March of 2010, and start building time right away. Additionally, ATP includes the multi time, which I understand is extremely attractive to future employers.

I think perhaps my biggest hang-up right now is shelling out $45,000+ at private loan rates to rush into this current job market, or lack thereof. I really want to go to ATP, but am having a harder and harder time convincing myself that’s what I should do all things considered. If it wasn’t for my wife working as a nurse, I wouldn’t even be considering this dream, but even her hours have been cut back lately, and taking on too much in the way of student loans is sounding less and less fun. Fortunately the VA paid for my Bachelors, so as of now I’m student-loan free.

My bottom line question would be: can the expense of ATP be justified given our current conditions and market outlook for the next 12-24-36 months? Or would a slower, more financially conservative route be advisable? I’m leaning towards the latter, but would appreciate any thoughts and feedback.

Thanks!

[jskibo]

[awf]

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

Hi Everyone,

My bottom line question would be: can the expense of ATP be justified given our current conditions and market outlook for the next 12-24-36 months? Or would a slower, more financially conservative route be advisable? I’m leaning towards the latter, but would appreciate any thoughts and feedback.

Thanks!

Welcome to the forums!
This topic has been discussed at length over and over again. do a search for any of the following terms "ATP", "zero to hero", "academy or fbo" there is tons of information already available. Bottom line is everyone here will tell you that in the current economy it's absolutely not worth it, 99% of the folks on this board will tell you it's not worth it in any economy.
Good Luck!

[juxtapilot]

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

Hi Everyone,

My first post here at JC, although I've been reading them quite a bit lately, and learning a lot.

Hey Welcome to Jetcareers!

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

I'm looking really hard at ATP's 90 day program, possibly starting in January sometime. I'm figuring at least $45,000, maybe $50,000 by the time its all said and done. I know the program is $39,995 right now, but you have to factor in food, misc. expenses, and examiner's fees, etc. These loans would be with SLM, and possibly Wells Fargo...the going rate is 12-14% now - with great credit. There is so much I like about ATP, but those rates and 20 year terms are daunting.

I would highly recommend staying far, far away from loans. My friends who are paying back their loans are miserable right now.

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

Another option is (believe it or not) to go through an in-state community college, where I can enroll in aviation ground school classes that have associated “flight labs.” These labs are considered to be a class, and as such I would be able to use my remaining VA benefits for them. Whatever the VA didn’t cover would qualify for federal loans (5-7% with 10 year terms). Through the community college I could get my instrument and commercial over the course of the next 12 -18 months or so, and then always go to another school (such as ATP) to get the CFI with Instrument and Multi-engine add-ons in a matter of weeks.

Would the VA cover ATP's VA program? If so, then it may be worth it. Keep in mind there are LOTS of CFIs looking for work right now. Even CFI jobs have become very competitive. You are not guaranteed a job if you go to ATP.

I think AriBen Aviator has some sort of college program for their flight courses. Their loan program is different from ATP's; I believe it's a lower interest rate. If you must get loans I would HIGHLY recommend looking for a more reasonably priced option.

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

The downside to this local route is the longer period of time to obtain the same ratings that would be possible in 90 days with ATP. Going the local route would mean I would earn my CFI in March or so of 2011. With ATP I could have it done by March of 2010, and start building time right away. Additionally, ATP includes the multi time, which I understand is extremely attractive to future employers.

Again, you are not guaranteed a job if you go to ATP. You don't need to rush so much... 90 days is really fast. 180 days to get everything done would be more reasonable in my opinion.

As for Multi Time... You will get a lot of it at ATP, but you will also get a lot of it building time to reach 1500TT (if you plan to go the airline route.) Multi time is not the gold like it used to be.

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

I think perhaps my biggest hang-up right now is shelling out $45,000+ at private loan rates to rush into this current job market, or lack thereof. I really want to go to ATP, but am having a harder and harder time convincing myself that’s what I should do all things considered. If it wasn’t for my wife working as a nurse, I wouldn’t even be considering this dream, but even her hours have been cut back lately, and taking on too much in the way of student loans is sounding less and less fun. Fortunately the VA paid for my Bachelors, so as of now I’m student-loan free.

You do not need to go to ATP to become a pilot. There are many more reasonably priced programs around. Take a year or two and save money like crazy. Then find a school you like and pay cash. Being student loan free is good, but if you pride yourself on that, then I ask you why you are even considering getting a private loan for your flight training. As you know the interest rates are INSANE. Going into debt right now would be very foolish in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

My bottom line question would be: can the expense of ATP be justified given our current conditions and market outlook for the next 12-24-36 months?

Hell no. I don't believe ATP can be justified ever again. The zero to hero era is done.

Don't be discouraged. You can be successful in the airline business either by saving money and paying for your flight training and enjoying a debt free airline lifestyle, or getting a loan for your flight training and enjoying a miserable ramen eating lifestyle.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do, and welcome to JC!

[mshunter]

Originally Posted by juxtapilot

As for Multi Time... You will get a lot of it at ATP, but you will also get a lot of it building time to reach 1500TT (if you plan to go the airline route.) Multi time is not the gold like it used to be.

This is the only thing I disagree with. It may not be gold, but it is still very desireable. I would think of it as silver.

[jerrywhite7]

why rush into it at ATP??? There are no jobs right now!!!! So in three months you have all the ratings and the new loans start up, and you have NO JOB!!!! Right now, take your time, think long term! In a year or so, things may be looking up, great. . . now you have somewhere to go, there will be flights schools (like ATP) that will need instructors cause everyone may start moving on to the airlines. Dont be in a hurry to go No where right now. Also, look into a part 141 FBO flight school, you can do it that way as well. GO for it! Also, tell them that you want to structure the training much like ATP, so go build some multi time! And if you do it at a local FBO you can actually take folks up, and go to fun places . . . so go take your buddies up (split some of the cost) and have fun.

[planesiscool]

I am going to ATP in December to get my ratings and did have to take out about half the cost of the program in loans. However, and this may sound strange, I think the FBO route is probably the best if you have the TIME and PATIENCE. I got my PPL through an FBO and it took 2.5 years because of flaky instructors and shoddy maintenance. I am doing ATP because I live in Alaska and it costs the same to do the FBO route up here as it does to do ATP. Plus my family circumstances dictate that ATP is my best route, however when I get out I am not sure I'll be able to get a full time job flying. I have another career to fall back on and I know several people who have planes that want an instructor to teach in their plane. So, if worse comes to worse I will do my day job and instruct at night and weekends. Maybe it doesn't make sense to some but it is the best route for my circumstances. It will be awhile before I could fly for an airline either way but this way I get it done and I'm not overextended financially.

[esa17]

Originally Posted by Cessna Driver

My bottom line question would be: can the expense of ATP be justified given our current conditions and market outlook for the next 12-24-36 months? Or would a slower, more financially conservative route be advisable? I’m leaning towards the latter, but would appreciate any thoughts and feedback.

Thanks!

No. If you're willing to drop $50k then why don't you get a loan for half that and buy an airplane. Then when you're done training sell it and get your money back.


(Yes, a 172 can be had for $25k)

[t-cart]

Originally Posted by esa17

No. If you're willing to drop $50k then why don't you get a loan for half that and buy an airplane. Then when you're done training sell it and get your money back.


(Yes, a 172 can be had for $25k)

I agree.

[LoadMasterC141]

I looked deeply into the "buying an airplane" route at one point.

Unfortunately, the risk and other costs were too high for my liking. Not to say it cannot work, but I certainly did not like it.


Besides the 25k for the plane, don't forget insurance (3-6K per year), and fuel.
The big thing was maintenance for me though. It is a big unknown. Yes a good pre-buy goes a long way, but I watched a few buddies still pay dearly for maintenance. One forked out $15k for a motor overhaul. Another bought an Arrow for $60k and leased it back to a flight school, thinking he could get some of the cost back by sharing the plane. In a year, he had to pay for a blown muffler, a new wing (his own hard landing), a landing gear motor, numerous avionics, and even a new prop.

For my own calculations, even taking the purchase cost of the plane out, it seemed I could fly my own plane for about 3/4 the cost of renting. But the unknown risk of maintenance and worth of the plane on the other end was not worth it. My one buddy that bought the Cessna...he paid $50k for it. He can't get 30 for it right now.

[Cessna Driver]

25K - that's amazingly cheap!!!

[t-cart]

Loadmaster, on a slightly side note, are you the one on here that built a Escapade/Hilander? I have been checking those things out lately and they look pretty awesome for the money.

Now back to the discussion.

[Cessna Driver]

All I appreciate the input, I really do! It seems that the local route is the smart choice to make for me, even though i WANT to go to ATP and get it all done. Its interesting how that not once choice is a good fit for everyone.

By the way, I just picked up a copy of "The Savvy Flight Instructor" from ASA - for all the CFI's out there, its a great read on how to build your business! I'm trying to get a head start.

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by t-cart

Loadmaster, on a slightly side note, are you the one on here that built a Escapade/Hilander? I have been checking those things out lately and they look pretty awesome for the money.

Now back to the discussion.

No sir. I remember that conversation but I cannot remember who it was.