my app got accepted

[SkyFlier33]

As far as ATP is concerned, I'm not saying anything about the quality of their training - don't know that yet, so can't testify.

But just on the financial side, I spent 15K at the local FBO and wasn't close to getting my Private with 65 hours. It was dragging on and on. There were never any checkrides scheduled because students would spend 100+ hours in training just for the Private. With rates like 280$ for a Twin Commanche I would have spent at least 30K for the multi time that I'm gonna get at ATP.

So 18K for Private, 15K for instrument, 30K for multi time, 15K for the MEL rating itself, 13 for CFI ratings would've come up to about 100K for everything! See why I decided to go with ATP?

Basically, what I'm trying to point out is that some cases it's actually makes more sense in terms of cost.

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

the thing is sky flier, If you goto an FBO, and you dont like how things are going, there is an out. Just stop going, or find a new FBO, your not penalized.

But with ATP, its the whole thing. So say you sign up for the career program, after 10 hrs in the seminole you decide this just isnt for you. Instead of the program price of 200-250$ / hr in the seminole, its 400$, oh, and your 1000$ deposit, gone. Oh 10 hrs you never had in the sim, guess what your paying it. What I am saying, ATP as a program sucks folks in, and if you decide you want out, ATP is gonna suck you for as much as they can. I have seen it done. PMEL and an IR for $30k? yup. it happened, feel bad for the guy.

I have always wondered how the loans are worked out. Cause I know FBO's have a hard time working with banks to get students financing for endeavors like this. I wonder if they try to portray themselves as a 141 school or something? I dont know.

I see what you mean here. I guess it's good for some and not for others. I've tried the FBO route-didn't work out for me too well.. Hopefully I'll have a better experience at ATP.

How did you end up getting your ratings, by the way?

My ex-FBO was a 141 school, worked thru Sallie Mae. Not sure how they're doing it now..

[crazyjeep]

Flier, I went to ATP. But in afterthought it was a bad decision. I started in the spring of 08. Back then the jobs were still there, even had a buddy at colgan say get your commercial multi and I had a job. By the time I finished in October, things were bad. Fuel was expensive, pilots were furloughed, jobs became scarce. My wife got pregnant while I was at ATP. Our first, my daughter is now 7 months old. Im unemployed, but I get to stay home with my daughter. Ive been trying to find work in the area as a CFI, but alas, economy blows in Detroit. ATP is a great program if the demand for jobs were great, and achievable. But they just arent right now, and that's why I recommend folks hold off, there are plenty of other avenues to get your ratings cheaper. If you got your private, join your civil air patrol, very few places can beat the price you can rent a plane, plus CFI's can't charge for their time.

One thing to take note, all of ATPs facilities are part 61, except for the VA one I believe is a 141.

Ive been tossing around the idea of forming a small flight school here in the area to give quality instruction while not breaking the bank for folks. I got access to a 172 and pa28-180. Been talking with my wife of maybe doing some freelance, and if a student wants to get their IR or PSEL, or commerical they could stay with us while they train. But its prolly a pipe dream. I wonder what the demand is for 1 on 1 training thru a rating everyday.

[DeuceOfAces]

Just an observation...

Did the OP mention if he had a degree yet? If he/she doesn't, they should look into attending a college where they can get a degree and earn their pilot certificates simultaneously. It's a win-win situation. An even bigger plus would be if they can find a school that is also ATC-CTI, then they'd have that option available as well.

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by SkyFlier33

Basically, what I'm trying to point out is that I'm not necessarily crazy to sign up for ACCP. In some cases it's actually makes more sense in terms of cost.

Well that's not true, unless you are trying to duplicate the ATP program. Which is a total of about 140 hours of multi, if you come with a ppl of 85 hours. The rest is filler sim to meet commercial mins. Even then you'd have to go to a pretty expensive place to come close to ATP prices.

If you do it all single engine you would be paying half at the local FBOs or even the second tier academies around the country. Become a CFI at the academy and get the MEI later. Save money. What matters to the airlines is that you meet their mins, not that you did your training in multi.

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by fly8slep

Well that's not true, unless you are trying to duplicate the ATP program. Which is a total of about 140 hours of multi, if you come with a ppl of 85 hours. The rest is filler sim to meet commercial mins. Even then you'd have to go to a pretty expensive place to come close to ATP prices.

If you do it all single engine you would be paying half at the local FBOs or even the second tier academies around the country. Become a CFI at the academy and get the MEI later. Save money. What matters to the airlines is that you meet their mins, not that you did your training in multi.

Fly8slep, If you go to a 141 part school, you still have to meet the faa mins. For a commercial you'd still have to get about 150 hours - don't remember exactly. Ok if I go SEL it can be cheaper, but where do you get the multi time then? I know a bunch of guys who instructed for a couple of years only in 172s and didn't have enough multi time when the hiring was at the peak.
The school I was studying at was doing Frasca for instrument and they charged over 200 per hour. Guys would end up spending 15K for their instrument rating.
Might be cheaper if you go to part 61 school, but I've heard many of them don't have a worked up program like big schools like the above mentioned and 141 schools. I think it depends on where you are in the country. I personally didn't have much of a choice.
Some people mentioned flying with CAP unit - sounds like a good idea.

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by DeuceOfAces

Just an observation...

Did the OP mention if he had a degree yet? If he/she doesn't, they should look into attending a college where they can get a degree and earn their pilot certificates simultaneously. It's a win-win situation. An even bigger plus would be if they can find a school that is also ATC-CTI, then they'd have that option available as well.

Erhhh... Not so sure of that. Those schools aren't the cheapest places by far..

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

Flier, I went to ATP. But in afterthought it was a bad decision. I started in the spring of 08. Back then the jobs were still there, even had a buddy at colgan say get your commercial multi and I had a job. By the time I finished in October, things were bad. Fuel was expensive, pilots were furloughed, jobs became scarce. My wife got pregnant while I was at ATP. Our first, my daughter is now 7 months old. Im unemployed, but I get to stay home with my daughter. Ive been trying to find work in the area as a CFI, but alas, economy blows in Detroit. ATP is a great program if the demand for jobs were great, and achievable. But they just arent right now, and that's why I recommend folks hold off, there are plenty of other avenues to get your ratings cheaper. If you got your private, join your civil air patrol, very few places can beat the price you can rent a plane, plus CFI's can't charge for their time.

One thing to take note, all of ATPs facilities are part 61, except for the VA one I believe is a 141.

Ive been tossing around the idea of forming a small flight school here in the area to give quality instruction while not breaking the bank for folks. I got access to a 172 and pa28-180. Been talking with my wife of maybe doing some freelance, and if a student wants to get their IR or PSEL, or commerical they could stay with us while they train. But its prolly a pipe dream. I wonder what the demand is for 1 on 1 training thru a rating everyday.

Jeep, wow, your situation is tough. .Must be tough having a small kid now..
I have a couple of friends who finished their time-building (didn't have to do much back in '08 ), got on with airlines and then were furloughed right away. Again, some guys I know got on with companies like Eagle about a year earlier, like '07, and are already not in a bad spot on the seniority list and have acceptable salaries.
I guess in this industry it's like a gamble. Gotta be at the right place the right time..


As far as your idea about starting a school.. You know, I'm not an expert But I've been watching my ex-school owner doing his thing with the FBO.. and tell you what, you've gotta know the right people to make it work. It's not easy,especially these days. If you don't have a lot of students, your overheads will kill your business. Just from my observation. My instructor - great guy- used to have a heli school. Said he wouldn't go into it again, ever. Just too expensive to maintain and too unpredictable.

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

Well, first, lets be honest. You work for ATP.

Absolutely. I have always been honest about that here at JC and anywhere else I post.

I have worked for ATP for a year and a half now.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

From a PR standpoint, ATP doesn't care about their students once they are signed up, and after they finish. The only thing that matters is keeping the next few students in line to sign up. .

On my own personal time, and we all know how precious that is, I have brought graduates in to sim to keep currency. I have sent letters of reccomendation out. I have put 10 hours of ground in when the syllabus calls for 4. The only time I won't go out of my way for a student is when they put no effort in for themselves.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

Arlington was one of my more amusing stops on my cross-countries. We stopped in to swap planes and some grub(What a burger). We hiked from the ramp to the ATP build(so fracking far btw). We went in to check the weather real quick, noticed some books, etc. No biggie, just got the weather and got lunch. We got back, preflighted the new plane, and this ATP Instructor comes running out(again long hike), Tells us a DPE is all pissed we went into the weather room, and accused us of modifying a online Iacra for a student he was doing a checkride on. We didnt do anything, just checked weather. The Instructor told us to hussle back, as soon as we got there the DPE had left a few min earlier and refusing to give them their licenses until he spoke to us. Idiots. .

Well then I guess we have actually met. I don't know that I was anything but cordial with you guys that day. It was a comedy of errors...The DE left his door unlocked, you guys walked in when everyone was flying, assumed it was a weather room, he comes back and sees someone has been in his office and wants to know who. As I knew no student of ours could have gone in there, it had to be a XC student. I don't recall him ever actually accusing you of modifying any IACRA though.

Again, not the best impression of GKY, and certainly not typical.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

They advertise they can train VA's, too bad it costs more, and only at one facility, nothing like jacking our VA's. .

It costs more because they get more actually. Being a Vet, I would never work for a company that treats servicemen and women poorly.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

You being a CFI, I am sure you must have had some students getting dispatched into thunderstorms, or in our case hurricanes. One flight, we couldnt come home to RIC because of rain, but it was ok to send us to LZU to swap the plane out, rain, tornado warning, wind shear and all. All for maintenance Smart eh?

I have seen times that the forecast weather was not the actual weather yes. Dispatchers are not the guys in the cockpit. The student should make the final decision on go/no go. I have seen students tell dispatch no without any sort of retribution.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

Your a CFI at ATP, How do you like Jim's micromanagement. Cutting back on benefits for you CFI's? And then as soon as one gets hurt/dies(FLL Midair last December) you become expendable contract employees. How are the ZAON MRX's? I remember reading an article about how ATP was toughting them as TCAS. Feel safer? Or do you guys have the TIS planes down there?.

Mainer was a friend of mine and I take that very personally. He was a wonderful person. ATP made great efforts to improve safety as a result. The PCAS system works fine. We do also have TIS in our newer Seminoles. However, TIS is a ground feed in busy airspace only. PCAS interrogates other Mode C transponders.

Jim has always been completely fair with me. Not sure what you mean by micromanagement.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

Yourself I see is at 135 mins...Granted you may like being a CFI...But can you yourself get a job with the hours you got? Its a hard market, everyone is hurting. And fooling these kids into spending a small fortune to get ratings fast and nowhere to go is counter-productive. They have a few years before they can hope to get an airline job, take their time.

I do indeed love being a CFI and have passed a few jobs so far. As far as your airline prophecies...they're worth as much as mine. I can lay down a holy mailstrom of counter arguments and even deeper informed information to counter, but in the end noone can tell what and when things will change. I like to look at who got hired first from the last downturn, and it was those who were prepared, not the ones that waited until a full hiring spree and faced possible furlough on the other end.

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

There are plenty of guys who went to ATP, finished, and say the same things I do. You don't think ATP management doesnt read these boards? post in this boards? Maybe they dont, but what takes them 5 min to spin a good tale to their story could return them in thousands in profit. ATP is a business, and unfortunately they don't see their students as customers, but rather students they can kick around as they please..

There are plenty that are completely happy as well. Believe it or not, most of the students I have ever asked about Jetcareers have no idea it exists or have seen it and think it is a whine board, because, well there is often alot of people giving one sided stories.

Truly I am sorry your experience was bad. I go out of my way to help my students. There is not an instructor here that does not care about their students.

Do not think I have not been on the other end of it either. If you have not seen my story before, I did not train at ATP, at all. The FBO route is not peaches and cream...very very far from it. After training elsewhere and working at ATP, I wish I had gone to ATP because of the structure of the program alone. The program only works with an instructor that follows that program AND, and this is a big AND, the student puts forth the effort...not out drinking his or her butt off partying with friends instead of glued to the books. In my short time here, I have seen that program become even more structured, and more check put in place to ensure the instructors are fllwing the syllabus to a tee. Not to mention, they got rid of people who were not here for the right reasons, which can be found abound at an FBO I assure you.

[crazyjeep]

Well, the deal I got from the airplanes owners is, 100$ / hr wet on the planes, then 25$ an hour for me. Alot cheaper than anybody around here for training. I think next best rate is something like 110$ for the plane, and 45-50 for the cfi. Plus after 10 hrs I can solo the student, around 15 I can let them loose to fly solo. Unlike ATP, I find that solo time is where you learn alot about yourself. As long as you dont get stupid, and rely upon the experience and knowledge on those before you.

Im pretty sure anybody who has gone to a pilot mill, you have some realizations. When you get your PSEL, your amazed you got it, and excited. At 100 hours, you realize this is still new to you, but your way better than when you were at 40. At 200 you call your previous self a newb, and when you get your CFI at 250 it starts all over.

[LoadMasterC141]

Well that sounds exactly like my training outside of ATP to a tee...Maybe they really are licenses to learn..anywhere.

[NolePilot]

I think the air needs to be cleared crazyjeep has been ranting and raving about ATP... Since he is unemployed because he can't find a flying job out there? Well aren't other places hiring? As I recall crazyjeep was one of those students who liked to party.... On several occasions he didn't show up at the training center or was several hours late due to drinking.....

[crazyjeep]

Originally Posted by NolePilot

I think the air needs to be cleared crazyjeep has been ranting and raving about ATP... Since he is unemployed because he can't find a flying job out there? Well aren't other places hiring? As I recall crazyjeep was one of those students who liked to party.... On several occasions he didn't show up at the training center or was several hours late due to drinking.....

Now that is amusing. Nole, dont know who you are. But if you knew me when I attended ATP, then you would know I hit the books.

Lets get one thing straight. I did not "party" at ATP. I think I may have drank on a few occasions to celebrate passing a checkride. I was down there with my wife, we had a place down in Chesterfield. I rarely stayed at the apartments, and my roommate can definitely attest to that. The times I did stay at the apartments was to study for an upcoming check ride without the annoyance of my wife. Nothing better to prepare for a check ride than going over the books with fellow pilots, especially ones a few weeks ahead of you.

So whomever you are, nice try, just doesn't wash. I feel honored you pulled out the anonymous avatar on my account. Got any proof to back up your slanderous statement? *holding my breath on this* LOL

Can we play 20 questions? Cause to be honest there are only few folks who were around still working for ATP. Have you ever had a prop strike at KTYS? Yes or No works fine for me, cause there is only two of you left. Do you really have to start slinging personal insults?

And LoadMaster, I got no problem with you, I didnt mean to come off that way. In all things, there are good things and bad things with ATP. Being a student who went through the program I have a viewpoint, and it is biased. I'm glad folks are working, even you at ATP, in this economy you got to get it anyway you can. I just hope to give some of these young aspiring pilots options. They dont have to go out and blow $50k, when there are few jobs around. And as much as Nole says there are jobs out there, there are alot of resumes buzzing around to get those jobs, and sudo-green CFI's dont jump high on the list right now. To all their own, and good luck to them.

Where you the CFI that came out running from GKY? In all, we found the situation amusing, not bad, just the DPE's paranoia. And I do hear about things changing at ATP, for the better? I think thats undecided, we'll have to wait until the next big batch get thru the program.