my app got accepted

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by USRaven

Well, in my case, going full time to flight school is time away from ANY sort of income (no matter how small it may be as a pilot). the sooner I am done with school, the sooner I bring TOP RAMEN back to the table to eat.

Low Expectations = High Morale indeed... Best of luck. Make sure you do that RJ course too so you can get hired at my airline after I get recalled in 2012...

[3enginejock]

Dont knock the guy for wanting to get his ratings done fast. Its his money if he wants to do it then go for it.

ATP is a great school. However, it is expensive. The airline industry isnt doing so hot right now and the few airlines that are hiring are not hiring anyone with 250 hours. Having said that, if you have some connections and you can get job right out of school I would say getting your ratings fast is definatly worth it. I was able to secure a 135 SIC gig right out of school so it can happen.

If you do not have a connection then all your gonna have a debt and no job. Even CFI jobs are difficult to come by these days.

IMO, if you do not have a job lined up for you already when you get your ratings then take it slow. If you need to work then get a job at Home Depot (lord knows it pays more than being a regional pilot) and get your ratings part time at a FBO. You will save money and hopefully the industry is a bit stronger when your ready.

Thats my 2 cents, take it for what its worth...

[bunghole]

It obvious that a choice to attend ATP at this moment in time is based on a combination of emotion and tunnel vision.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

D

ATP is a great school. However, it is expensive. The airline industry isnt doing so hot right now and the few airlines that are hiring are not hiring anyone with 250 hours. Having said that, if you have some connections and you can get job right out of school I would say getting your ratings fast is definatly worth it.

There is no place today that will hire you with 250 hours even if you know someone, unless you are paying for the job. The days of wet commercial to a tprop or jet job are over.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by bunghole

It obvious that a choice to attend ATP at this moment in time is based on a combination of emotion and tunnel vision.

Actually in her case it doesn't matter since it's GI Bill. I would actually even go to a more expensive place than ATP, like Flight Safety Academy. 78k!!!!! for private to instructor. And you will be paid 16 an hour as a CFI too!

[3enginejock]

Sorry but your wrong. Someone came online at my airline 2 weeks ago with a wet commercial and 250 hours as a Saab 340 SIC... Connections help a LOT in this business.

And no, he did not pay for his training. And neither did I.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Sorry but your wrong. Someone came online at my airline 2 weeks ago with a wet commercial and 250 hours as a Saab 340 SIC... Connections help a LOT in this business.

And no, he did not pay for his training. And neither did I.

Uh... so connections don't pay for training but street guys do? Is that legal?? Point is you're very lucky.

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by bunghole

It obvious that a choice to attend ATP at this moment in time is based on a combination of emotion and tunnel vision.

Emotion - yes, but tunnel vision - ??? Maybe some people just have a few extra $$ to spare, you know.

[USRaven]

I would agree to my tunnel vision, but I smile when I call it focus. I understand the job situation. I have 0 bills. I own my car outright, and do my own work on it. I don't want too much more than I already have. And worst case, ehh... I guess I just pick up an avionics job. I planned a couple years ago on my plan B when flying is too slow to work out.

My thing: I like the idea of standardized training (especially since I have been failed by an instructor already). I want to be a CFI. I don't mind paying 30 grand for my CFI, MEI, II ratings. I don't believe all the hype of the schools, but have done my homework enough to know this is where I want to go. That being said-- I am not extremely hardheaded. My reason for posting here is to learn from you guys that have been where I'm going in life. If you have a quicker option let me know.

1 more reason to finish quickly- I want to finish my 4 year degree After ATP. School is free. Should take 1.5 years. After, I want to pursue a commision in the USAF Reserve (already enlisted). I wouldn't mind applying for a pilot slot before my age cutoff (1.6 years away). It's worth a shot.

Wife is a lawyer... But a new one... And I try not to rely on her money.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by Socal321

Uh... so connections don't pay for training but street guys do? Is that legal?? Point is you're very lucky.

No, in-house training is free, if you get sent to Pan Am you have to pay. I am very lucky but my point stands. If you have the right connections anything is possible.

Also dont believe I got my job handed to me. I had to work at the company for 6 months as a fueler making less than I do now. During that time I sat in on every ground session that I could, and studied at home every night. I jumpseated often as well and spent many hours practicing on the CPT. I made sure when I got my chance that I was ready. The guy that just came online did the same thing.

Most people that get hired do not have to go through that, even the 250 hour FO's. Most interview get called back eventually then have a class scheduled at Pan Am.

In the event we do hire FO's in the future I believe they still will be low time FO's. They prefer it over guys with more time because they will not stick around. Why would a guy with 5000+ hours want to sit right seat in a Saab for 18k a year? The answer is he wouldnt and would leave the first chance he got. Which is why the days of 250 hour FO's is not over, atleast not in the 135 world. You hire a 250 hour FO you pretty much know hes staying for a couple years atleast, more if he upgrades.

Anyway, my point was if you are able to set something like this up and have a job right out of school then ATP is definatly worth it if you have the money. If not then I would take it slow because finding a job right now on your own with 250 hours is nearly impossible.

[crazyjeep]

ATP's CFI standardization isnt really standardization in my opinion. Its a way to weed out the people management just doesn't like. Ask around, and you will find folks asked to do multiple sim sessions for their "standardization", be perfect and then they tell them they didnt like something stupid, pack your stuff and go home. There are plenty of CFI's at ATP who are there to build time, not teach wholeheartedly.

When I went last summer, I was lucky with the CFI's I had. But there were a few who well, lets just say didn't stand up. I will go thru a couple of them with you guys. My primary instructor, AK, for my PSEL pushed us thru real fast(no arguement), but my very first cross country was at night. We took off, got flight following and during the cruise of each leg he would close his eyes, turn is ipod on. I'd ask a question and he wouldn't hear it due to the ipod. He was homesick, so he got us to the faa mins pretty fast and signed us off for our checkrides and went down to ATL. Unfortunate I was not 100% ready. I should have known better, I busted on some strong crosswinds and a little shear. I was disappointed. AK came up from ATL a few days later and didn't say anything, he was more pissed he didn't get his "bonus".

On another XC flight, the CFI who wasn't a bad guy, just lazy a little ended up sleeping all the way there and all the way back. Didn't learn jack on that ride, but you better believe ATP calculates his time into the cost of the program.

The problem I have is with ATP is that you can very easily get the ratings at a local FBO, but because costs are so high they suck you in because you can get financing for it easier thru them. If FBOs had an easier way to provide financing to their students ATP wouldn't be in business today.

As I alot of the folks I speak to regarding ATP and how to get the ratings. If your young, get a job, cut grass at the FBO, get your private license, then join up with a CAP unit(hopefully a good one in your area), then you can get your ratings thru cap while training to give back to GA. You really cannot beat the rates you can get thru CAP. For instance here it is roughly 80$ an hour wet(36$ dry) for a 2007 182 g1000. You cannot get that thru an FBO, period...So do the math, 200 hrs * ~80$/ hr (CAP doesnt allow us CFI's to charge) = $16000...so, get your private($5-6k), join a CAP unit, spend a year or two getting your ratings, then find a nice FBO you can teach at to get your multi and get some multi time, while CFIing at your local CAP unit. So, What is the overall cost, $22k? or goto ATP where you spend $50k, but you got all that multi time. Your wife, parents, kids, etc will thank you for saving a butt load of cash. I wish someone knocked some sense into me before going to ATP.

Again, this is all from my experience at ATP and opinion of them, I still do keep in touch with some of the CFI's there, and it doesn't sound like things are rocking for them.

[guywhoflies]

Very good points Crazyjeep. I think everyone who ever did any training at ATP can share similar stories: instructors being overworked and underpaid and, as a result, slacking off at times and passing off the laziness to the students. Not to get a CAP debate going, but it is a great way to build time. Also, if you become a mission pilot then the flight time is free.

[n6149s]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

No one payed 50-60k in training loans 15 years ago. 15 years ago you could get your training done for like 20k or less. Hell, about 10 years ago you could go through the ATP ACPP for like 30k.

How much will the 60 k loan cost after it is all paid off? What happens when you go to gulfstream, what is that 80k + interest?

[USRaven]

I am in currently in CAP (prior cadet). My unit flies a lot. I have to get my form 5 checkride... and then start flying. about 70 bucks wet for a c172. not bad.

As far as ATP... I have to say this. I really dont mean to come off like an A-hole, but that wouldn't last past the first fllight with me. I would pull that kid aside, and remind him that I rely on him to teach me things that may save my life one day. If he can't stay awake, he can't fly in my cockpit! If he went sideways, even a little bit, I would be in the chief pilot's office behind closed doors. PART 141 is a HUGE responsibility - (I assume this didn't happen at Panama City) a detailed report like that to the FAA would be a WRECKING BALL, one that ATP would surely want to avoid. I don't have any problems with reporting trash like that in the cockpit. There are too many GOOD guys waiting in line for that crap to go on.

I can see the instructors being tired. I understand work gets long. But it is that attitude that leads to fatal accident reports on NTSB's desk. When you're young and wreckless, it's easy to forget that you can kill people- including people on the ground.

Just saying. Sorry about the soapbox. Maybe it's a little bit of the military in me, or maybe lessons learned from life experiences... but flying is serious, and deadly.

[bunghole]

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

ATP's CFI standardization isnt really standardization in my opinion. Its a way to weed out the people management just doesn't like. Ask around, and you will find folks asked to do multiple sim sessions for their "standardization", be perfect and then they tell them they didnt like something stupid, pack your stuff and go home. There are plenty of CFI's at ATP who are there to build time, not teach wholeheartedly.

When I went last summer, I was lucky with the CFI's I had. But there were a few who well, lets just say didn't stand up. I will go thru a couple of them with you guys. My primary instructor, AK, for my PSEL pushed us thru real fast(no arguement), but my very first cross country was at night. We took off, got flight following and during the cruise of each leg he would close his eyes, turn is ipod on. I'd ask a question and he wouldn't hear it due to the ipod. He was homesick, so he got us to the faa mins pretty fast and signed us off for our checkrides and went down to ATL. Unfortunate I was not 100% ready. I should have known better, I busted on some strong crosswinds and a little shear. I was disappointed. AK came up from ATL a few days later and didn't say anything, he was more pissed he didn't get his "bonus".

On another XC flight, the CFI who wasn't a bad guy, just lazy a little ended up sleeping all the way there and all the way back. Didn't learn jack on that ride, but you better believe ATP calculates his time into the cost of the program.

The problem I have is with ATP is that you can very easily get the ratings at a local FBO, but because costs are so high they suck you in because you can get financing for it easier thru them. If FBOs had an easier way to provide financing to their students ATP wouldn't be in business today.

As I alot of the folks I speak to regarding ATP and how to get the ratings. If your young, get a job, cut grass at the FBO, get your private license, then join up with a CAP unit(hopefully a good one in your area), then you can get your ratings thru cap while training to give back to GA. You really cannot beat the rates you can get thru CAP. For instance here it is roughly 80$ an hour wet(36$ dry) for a 2007 182 g1000. You cannot get that thru an FBO, period...So do the math, 200 hrs * ~80$/ hr (CAP doesnt allow us CFI's to charge) = $16000...so, get your private($5-6k), join a CAP unit, spend a year or two getting your ratings, then find a nice FBO you can teach at to get your multi and get some multi time, while CFIing at your local CAP unit. So, What is the overall cost, $22k? or goto ATP where you spend $50k, but you got all that multi time. Your wife, parents, kids, etc will thank you for saving a butt load of cash. I wish someone knocked some sense into me before going to ATP.

Again, this is all from my experience at ATP and opinion of them, I still do keep in touch with some of the CFI's there, and it doesn't sound like things are rocking for them.

Wow....great advice! The CAP idea sounds like an awesome opportunity to save some cash while flying good equipment with a CFI that won't be taking naps in flight.

While most feedback about ATP has been positive I believe that the most important concern is the financial burden that can really put allot of stress on yourself and marriage.

[Captain_Bob]

Anybody notice the new price reduction?

[USRaven]

JUST talked to Greg Ferris up at JAX a few hours ago. THEY DROPPED the inclusive housing. Now they charge 200/ week for the dorms across the street. They STILL pack you in like sardines (2/room). They offer contracted apartments with La Quinta Inn about 3 miles away for 400/week.

How about it? I'm flying up there Saturday with my wife to tour the school.

[Stomp16]

Originally Posted by USRaven

They offer contracted apartments with La Quinta Inn about 3 miles away for 400/week.

[crazyjeep]

Originally Posted by USRaven

As far as ATP... I have to say this. I really dont mean to come off like an A-hole, but that wouldn't last past the first fllight with me. I would pull that kid aside, and remind him that I rely on him to teach me things that may save my life one day. If he can't stay awake, he can't fly in my cockpit! If he went sideways, even a little bit, I would be in the chief pilot's office behind closed doors. PART 141 is a HUGE responsibility - (I assume this didn't happen at Panama City) a detailed report like that to the FAA would be a WRECKING BALL, one that ATP would surely want to avoid. I don't have any problems with reporting trash like that in the cockpit. There are too many GOOD guys waiting in line for that crap to go on.

I would have, but things at ATP operate a little differently. Like everyone has posted before me, Once they got you signed up, the first few payments, ATP has their teeth in you.

I made a post here during my training explaining the good and the bad experiences I had during my training. A few days later the head honcho at our facility pulled me into his office, threatened me over my post. Basically said, your comments are not appreciated on in the public forums. And to remove the post or be removed from the program all together. And my post was rather benign, at the time I liked the school. Since then, I see the big picture and have had plenty of time re-evaluate my time spent there, and talk to many other students about their experiences.

Some are quite happy, others, like me, felt that ATP dropped the ball. I busted one checkride, didnt give them any crap, did what they told me to do. In most business's, growth is based on customer satisfaction...I dont need to tell you how that poll would turn out.

I got my ratings, and I got out. One thing that I am really suprised on is the amount of CFI training candidates get. When I was down in LZU for CFI school we got there, spent 1 day doing nothing, I got a training flight in with a regular instructor only cause I took the initiative and then we were just told to hit the books. 2nd day we were all sped thru spin training, three to the left, three to the right, and then we got our endorsements. For the remaining 5 days, we got one more flight for 2 hrs practicing maneuvers, then we were signed off for the checkride. We didnt get any ground except for a really cool VMC demo and how to instruct it. The VMC demo was cool and all, but tips/tricks to be a CFI were never discussed. Such as how do we guard the controls, etc. There is alot more to being a CFI than what is in the FARs or the FAA handbooks, those were never taught. My buddy and I stressed over our checkrides, and suprisingly we both passed, and got our initial CFI. But we still to this day wonder how we passed with such inadquete training for the rating. I guess to get that, you have to be hired and pass ATP standardization.

Again as always, this is my opinion on ATP after my experiences going through the program. It is fast, 90 day took almost 5 months(June to October) for me, i finished the day before my 1 yr anniversary...drove 12 hrs to make sure I didn't miss it. I sat for two weeks because they didnt have enough airplanes, or the instructors had too many students. It was a mess. Whatever you decide, I think an pilot here will wish you much success, but we just try to help you not make the same mistakes we have before.

[LoadMasterC141]

Hey Jeep...I may have missed this before, but what ATP location were you at? I was just wondering because I have honestly not seen the same things you have mentioned at mine.

As far as CFI school...I attended a very comprehensive CFI program and STILL did not feel like I had the teaching nuances that make a fantastic instructor. Some things are better learned by doing and getting advice from peers I guess.

[Socal321]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

No, in-house training is free, if you get sent to Pan Am you have to pay. I am very lucky but my point stands. If you have the right connections anything is possible.

Also dont believe I got my job handed to me. I had to work at the company for 6 months as a fueler making less than I do now. During that time I sat in on every ground session that I could, and studied at home every night. I jumpseated often as well and spent many hours practicing on the CPT. I made sure when I got my chance that I was ready. The guy that just came online did the same thing.

Most people that get hired do not have to go through that, even the 250 hour FO's. Most interview get called back eventually then have a class scheduled at Pan Am.

In the event we do hire FO's in the future I believe they still will be low time FO's. They prefer it over guys with more time because they will not stick around. Why would a guy with 5000+ hours want to sit right seat in a Saab for 18k a year? The answer is he wouldnt and would leave the first chance he got. Which is why the days of 250 hour FO's is not over, atleast not in the 135 world. You hire a 250 hour FO you pretty much know hes staying for a couple years atleast, more if he upgrades.

Anyway, my point was if you are able to set something like this up and have a job right out of school then ATP is definatly worth it if you have the money. If not then I would take it slow because finding a job right now on your own with 250 hours is nearly impossible.

I agree with you though obviously if you have some sort of deal lined up ATP is probably the quickest way to go from 0 to CPL.

[crazyjeep]

Originally Posted by LoadMasterC141

Hey Jeep...I may have missed this before, but what ATP location were you at? I was just wondering because I have honestly not seen the same things you have mentioned at mine.

As far as CFI school...I attended a very comprehensive CFI program and STILL did not feel like I had the teaching nuances that make a fantastic instructor. Some things are better learned by doing and getting advice from peers I guess.

Well, first, lets be honest. You work for ATP. I was at Richmond. I hear it got better after Todd was let go.

CFI school should have been more than sticking us in a room, told to study for 5 days, a 20 min spin flight(and that is all that it was), two 2 hr seminole rides doing steep turns over a lake, and flying around GA so Pat can be a tour guide sight seeing, How many folks know where Pat did his helicopter training?

My experiences from ATP are my own as a student, talking to past students, past instructors, and a few current ones. From a PR standpoint, ATP doesn't care about their students once they are signed up, and after they finish. The only thing that matters is keeping the next few students in line to sign up.

Arlington was one of my more amusing stops on my cross-countries. We stopped in to swap planes and some grub(What a burger). We hiked from the ramp to the ATP build(so fracking far btw). We went in to check the weather real quick, noticed some books, etc. No biggie, just got the weather and got lunch. We got back, preflighted the new plane, and this ATP Instructor comes running out(again long hike), Tells us a DPE is all pissed we went into the weather room, and accused us of modifying a online Iacra for a student he was doing a checkride on. We didnt do anything, just checked weather. The Instructor told us to hussle back, as soon as we got there the DPE had left a few min earlier and refusing to give them their licenses until he spoke to us. Idiots.

There are good CFI's, and bad ones. But that's not the entire picture of ATP. Like asking students to XC a plane into IMC with a broken AI, having equipment swapped out by a CFI, FAA inquiry follows. Or how about the guys who swapped planes in TTN, dual engine failure(power loss, could not maintain alt). They ended up setting it down at a nearby field. Couldn't get it to run up right. ATP Maint basically dropped the ball on the students. In the end the problem was never discovered, we think it was bad fuel/water in the tanks from apparently sitting around not flying for a month. Have a problem with a plane. Wait, some student has to fly it back to a maintenance facility, problem and all. They advertise they can train VA's, too bad it costs more, and only at one facility, nothing like jacking our VA's.

You being a CFI, I am sure you must have had some students getting dispatched into thunderstorms, or in our case hurricanes. One flight, we couldnt come home to RIC because of rain, but it was ok to send us to LZU to swap the plane out, rain, tornado warning, wind shear and all. All for maintenance Smart eh?

Your a CFI at ATP, How do you like Jim's micromanagement. Cutting back on benefits for you CFI's? And then as soon as one gets hurt/dies(FLL Midair last December) you become expendable contract employees. How are the ZAON MRX's? I remember reading an article about how ATP was toughting them as TCAS. Feel safer? Or do you guys have the TIS planes down there?

The cost for a program such as ATP can be completed much cheaper, and leave students with extremely less debt. Now, alot can be said about the nature of this industry we all aspire to partake in. Hiring is down, way down. Mins are up, and economists are thinking the airlines aren't going to bounce back to break even until 2012, or even 2013. Folks who are flying for the regionals or even the majors dont think hiring is gonna kick back up until 2012. Yourself I see is at 135 mins...Granted you may like being a CFI...But can you yourself get a job with the hours you got? Its a hard market, everyone is hurting. And fooling these kids into spending a small fortune to get ratings fast and nowhere to go is counter-productive. They have a few years before they can hope to get an airline job, take their time.

There are plenty of guys who went to ATP, finished, and say the same things I do. You don't think ATP management doesnt read these boards? post in this boards? Maybe they dont, but what takes them 5 min to spin a good tale to their story could return them in thousands in profit. ATP is a business, and unfortunately they don't see their students as customers, but rather students they can kick around as they please.

Ohh, I also forgot to mention. The private program. I solo'd 4 hrs into it...yes 4 hrs. I swore I was going to die.

[SkyFlier33]

Originally Posted by crazyjeep

ATP is a business, and unfortunately they don't see their students as customers, but rather students they can kick around as they please.

Ohh, I also forgot to mention. The private program. I solo'd 4 hrs into it...yes 4 hrs. I swore I was going to die.

Crazyjeep, I hear what you're saying. BUT I can also second that about my previous school - a local FBO in NJ. It's even worse - they kept students flying for 100+ hours before their checkride, most of them spent 15K and more just on their Private. If you had a MX problem and landed at another airport, you had to pay for another plane and 2 instructors' time to come pick you up AND that was the best school in the area, I heard that other FBO's around here don't give a * about their students' proficiency at all.

Unfortunately, it looks like it's the nature of the business. FBOs and schools aren't there not for charity purposes, they are making money. Heck, if I had my income depend on the amount of flight students I had, would I tell them that noone's hiring? I doubt it.

[crazyjeep]

the thing is sky flier, If you goto an FBO, and you dont like how things are going, there is an out. Just stop going, or find a new FBO, your not penalized.

But with ATP, its the whole thing. So say you sign up for the career program, after 10 hrs in the seminole you decide this just isnt for you. Instead of the program price of 200-250$ / hr in the seminole, its 400$, oh, and your 1000$ deposit, gone. Oh 10 hrs you never had in the sim, guess what your paying it. What I am saying, ATP as a program sucks folks in, and if you decide you want out, ATP is gonna suck you for as much as they can. I have seen it done. PMEL and an IR for $30k? yup. it happened, feel bad for the guy.

I have always wondered how the loans are worked out. Cause I know FBO's have a hard time working with banks to get students financing for endeavors like this. I wonder if they try to portray themselves as a 141 school or something? I dont know.

[fly8slep]

I did ATP back when all you had to do was fog a mirror to get a job. I hope the people that are trying to go to ATP get something out of this. And this is completely unbiased because I could care less about ATP and management. They charged 45 to 60k the last several years but they can still afford to drop the price now to 40-50K. I think the owners made out like bandits the last several years with the pilot shortage. But back to the topic...

ATP is a pilot mill. There is no doubt about it. If you want quality personal instruction, ATP is not the place. Anyone that has enough IQ to take out a loan for 50 grand or even to think they can become a pilot, should be able to do their homework. There is no hand holding at ATP, you have to be crazy to think anyone is going to make a good pilot out of you in 90 days, considering the CFI's themselves are wet behind the ears. What they can make out of you is a competent pilot, it's all up to you. Also I did feel like I was ripped off on the price because really, what do you get at the end of the day at ALL ATPS? Only 140 hours of multi for 50K, the other multi they claim is all sim time which is completely worthless. Plus you get the CFI ratings. The CFI academy has been beaten to death so I'm not going to touch on it, but today, at this time, you have to be absolutely crazy to go to ATP. It's not worth it. What they don't tell you is that in order to qualify for that 40K 90 day which is is actuall close to 45K with checkride costs and other things is that you need a PPL and a 85 hours before you start. So that it as least 8500 right there. before you even take out a loan for ATP. ATP will go out of their way to give you the absolute minimum multi engine hours.

With that said, here are the reasons why ATP worked for some. It worked for me because I had such a bad experience at the fbo where I was doing my training for the PPL that I was willing to pay 10k or more just so that I didn't have to deal with the logistics of going from ppl to being able to get a job. ATP does their job very well, and they've got it down to a science. When they say 90 days, they get it done. The other reason is that people were hiring, it was worth going in the hole 50 grand because you could make up for it. Now that is the last mentality that you should have not only for signing an ATP loan but for any other flight training, you should be focusing on saving money, the airlines won't be hiring for a long time.

To those guys with the GI bill, it doesn't matter, eventhough I still stand by that qulity of training comment. But for people that will actually go in debt, you can certainly do it cheaper other places. 10 to 20K cheaper. Look for second tier flight academies that actually care about the student and not their airline ambitions. ATP is a love hate thing, and their management knows it, on a side note I heard their waiting list to actually get some kind of cfi spot is over 6 months.... Train some place where you will get a job cfiing once you're done, and if you do an academy pretty much all of them will give you a cfi job.