Commercial Manuvers

[C5crewChief]

So, im not going for a rating and a certificate or anything like that but my school requires me to perform commercial maneuvers to PTS prior to getting in the multi. So i have been struggling with lazy eights.

When i do the lazy eight everything seems fine in the beginning. I'm at Va, then pitch first then bank to about 15 degrees at my 45 degree outside reference. Then the trouble begins. Going to my 90 degree reference point i have gained about 3 - 4 hundred feet and then it hits. The stall horn. Can the stall horn come on at the 90. When it comes on i don't let it stall. My instructor says the stall horn shouldn't come on at all in the lazy eight. Also, just prior to the 90 im told to increase my bank. So i usually bank to about 45 degrees. Is that allowed? I thought it was 30 degrees. Then from my 90 to 135 then to 180 im descending way too fast and I either bust my altitude or don't get there. Any tricks or words of experience would be great. I'm not saying that my instructor is horrible but shes been instructing for about a year off and on.

Also, do other flight school make their PPL students perform commercial maneuvers to PTS prior to progressing to the multi? This is a time building block and at the end of the block you have a check ride to do commercial maneuvers. If you fail you have to do 4 hours of remedial w/ an instructor then you get another shot at it. the check ride includes

-Power off 180 accuracy landing
- short field TO and Landing
-soft field TO and Landing
- Chandelles, Lazy eights, eights on pylons, steep spiral, eng. failure, steep turns to 50 degree bank
Thanks

[LoadMasterC141]

I am not sure this should be in the ATP section as we certainly do not, to my knowledge at any location, require this of students until it is Commercial Single time. Also, to be clear....You are not going to do any of these in the Multi right?

• Lazy 8's -
  • Emphasis on the L-A-Z-Y. Perform them slowly, lazy.
  • Bank, Pitch, and Airspeed should ALWAYS be changing during the manuever.
  • The Manuever is visual, meaning almost all of your time should be spent looking outside. Pick a road to turn on so you can see the reference points. Spend most of your time looking at the nose of the aircraft.
  • The manuever should be setup so your turn is INTO the wind.
  • Begin pitch up and bank. By the 45 degree point, you should be at around 15 degrees of bank and be at your highest pitch. Due to the overbanking tendency of the plane, you should not have any more aileron input past around 10 degrees. Simply continuing to pitch will cause the airplane to bank more. If you have done your job right by the 45 degree point, you can pretty much lock your control inputs where they are and the plane will fly the rest of the way through the 135 degree point.
  • At 90 degrees, the plane should be at its' highest altitude and the nose should fall, usually on its' own, to 30 degrees of bank and be "slicing" through the horizon.
  • At the 135 degree point, the airplane is at the lowest pitch and hisghest speed. Bank should be back to 15 degrees.
  • From here, rolling the bank SLOWLY out will move the horizontal component of lift back to vertical, helping the nose come to a level pitch.

You should consult the commercial single engine PTS for all your maneuvers. Also, have a look at some Youtube videos of others performing the manuevers. Finally, use the Airplane Flying Handbook or Jepp Instrument/Commercial book to study them a bit more.

Lazy 8's seem to be fairly subjective in nature. I have had an inspector tell me the horn should sound and a DE say 60 knots(C172) is just right. Truly, the PTS standard does not specify a slowest airspeed. The most important thing is that the 8's are symmetric, coordinated, and you arrive within 100 feet of entry altitude, 10 degrees of heading at EACH 180 degree point.

All the Commercial maneuvers are best performed in smooth air. Get up early in the AM and it will be alot easier to understand them without having to make control inputs to correct for convective turbulence.

[tgrayson]

Originally Posted by C5crewChief

I'm at Va, then pitch first then bank to about 15 degrees at my 45 degree outside reference.

As stated, it doesn't sound right. You don't roll into 15 degrees of bank at the 45, you are continually increasing the bank from the entry point TO the 45, whereupon you should have about 15 degrees.

Going to my 90 degree reference point i have gained about 3 - 4 hundred feet and then it hits. The stall horn.

That's fine.

Also, just prior to the 90 im told to increase my bank. So i usually bank to about 45 degrees. Is that allowed? I thought it was 30 degrees.

I believe the airplane flying handbook says the max should be "approximately 30 degrees".

Then from my 90 to 135 then to 180 im descending way too fast and I either bust my altitude or don't get there.

Remember to **slowly** lower the nose through the horizon as you turn towards the 135 degree mark. Do it the same way every time. If you are consistently high, reduce the power prior to entry. If you are consistently low, increase power prior to entry.

Also, do other flight school make their PPL students perform commercial maneuvers to PTS prior to progressing to the multi?

Never heard of it before. Hope she isn't confused.

[LucasM]

PTS says not to exceed 30 degrees of bank at the steepest point

[LS024]

The PTS says "approximately 30 degrees bank at the steepest point"

[Clocks]

One thing that always helped me was to fly the maneuver with my fingertips. Having a deathgrip on the yoke jacks everything up.

[C5crewChief]

Well I want to thank everyone for their advice. I'm currently at FSA and looking at moving on to ATP. It is very fustraiting that I can't perform the lazy eight to PTS to move onto the Seminole. I have failed the stage check twice because of that maneuver. I have been screwing around with this same stage check for 3 months. No other school i have spoken to makes a private pilot perform commercial maneuvers prior to moving on in training. So i do not recommend Flightsafety at all.

Any ways I was just curious of your ATP flight school makes private pilots perform commercial maneuvers to advance in training, guess not.

-Have a great day!!

[SpiraMirabilis]

I always had students who had trouble with the lazy eights when I was a CFI -- the main problem was their instructor taught them incorrectly the first time and law of primacy means they're kind of messed up until they can get over that first instruction. I'm on reserve and havent flown in forever -- come up to Denver and rent and cessna and I'll show you! Hah

[T56Maniac]

Sounds like your looking inside the cockpit to much. Common error. I demo my students how fluid the maneuver should be and keep your eyes out side. Only glance inside for the coordination ball. By the way.....passing the 90 degree point you shouldn't increase your bank angle too much further past 30 because that will cause you to increase your rate of descent causing you to increase your airspeed.

If you keep your eye's inside, you will be "mechanical" with the maneuver.

Best of luck,

[ILS37R]

Re: the lazy--

Here's a funky idea, but it's worked for a lot of students: try singing a slow song while performing the maneuver. It's very easy to do lazy 8s too quickly. Having a slow beat in your head sometimes helps in working through that.

[Roger, Roger]

Yeah, put emphasis on the lazy. If you take it slow and look outside, it's not too hard to do a nice lazy eight.

Also, if you haven't already, have your CFI demonstrate one or 2 while you look only outside so you can "reset" your mental picture of how it should look.

[MikeOH58]

Keep your eyes OUTSIDE! Pitch Pitch Bank! Pick Good points