Dont Attend ATP

[tiredofshoveling]

I passed ATP's Jet Course. The "course" consisted of memorizing about half a dozen profiles and flows and parroting them in the ftd. The ftd was cool though. A bunch of military trainers operate the simulators and some current younger pilots and ex-pilots. Select the later times if you go to the school to avoid the military guys. They treat you like an enlistee not a paying customer. DO NOT pay for the school. Only go if you are a career student and when u have memorized the flows and profiles from the binder they send. Basically ignore the system portion of the binder as you are not tested on it in any way. I completed my ratings through both commercials and opted out of CFI "school". People were surprised I opted out. I think I would have made it but I decided to mitigate against that risk. ATP will not work with you if you are having problems.
I received 5 hours of training for my commercial multi-engine and 4 hours for my single engine commercial. I was lucky to pass the single engine as I hadn't flown a cessna in like 6 months. You will receive 5 hours for your MEI and 2 for you CII. You will have 7 hours to complete your single commercial and CFI together. Total dual given was about 40 hours 50 if you attend CFI school.
For CFI "school" be advised you will arrive on a sunday and and checkrides will be the following week. So one week to study, with 2 flights in there. Most people do pass eventually but the bust rate is extremely high and checkrides are 500 bucks. Not really proper preparation in my opinion. Las Vegas is a wreck.
I'd like to say that ATP is not the place to go for your flight training. My experience was generally negative, although I did better than many others. I had one bust on my instrument rating which could easily have been avoided if I had had a proper brief on the checkride. And if had my flights slightly more spaced out I may have done better. For the money you spend you are treated like complete dirt. There is an unecessary lack of attention given to students who undoutedly will struggle in some area. There is no ground. I made myself into a pilot of the seminole in the simulator at night. Without that I wouldn't have made it. I'll be gettin my CFI's at another school, where the pace is sane and you get some ground. I really didn't need much ground just someone to refer to when I was confused on a point. I'd be happy to speak with anyone regarding my experiences.

If you insist on attending go to a small location, and select the 10 month option if you can. Visit the location. Get a couple of students on the side and talk to them about the location, there are sometimes problems like lack of instructors etc. Try to go to an established location that is small.

ATP is particularly hard on younger students who are maybe not prepared or properly prepped for the pace of the program. Exercise your options. Many people, who are "washed out", I feel are too embarrassed to post here or too uninterested. Nearly all the students I talked with agreed with my opinion by the end of their training if not right away. Don't let ATP screw you. I met some excellent people though, nothing to do with ATP.



TOS

[Minuteman]

• Introductory Paragraph
  • Motivator (I'm a student, but I'm not happy there. Let me share my insight.)
  • Thesis Sentence (They are not good because they eat babies.)
• First Body Paragraph (The syllabus was unsatisfactory)
  • Specific Support
• Second Body Paragraph (The training location was disorderly)
  • Specific Support
• Third Body Paragraph (The pace and saturation of training are not conducive to the traditional five stages of learning.)
  • Specific Support
• Concluding Paragraph
  • Reworded Thesis (There may be more suitable options and I encourage you, the reader, to investigate them.)
  • "Clincher" (I'm living proof!)

(sorry, I've been drinking. )

[anavalairman2]

May be harmful to heath. Blister agents present in operating area, dawn gas masks and conform to MOPP Level 4 instructions. Now set General Quarters.

[LoadMasterC141]

The ATP program, looking in as an outside CFI, is definitely fast paced. I would agree some of the times required to get things done are quite fast, but within reason. As someone with a perspective from other flight schools as well, I can tell you that there are similar and unique problems outside as well.

As far as "bang for the buck"....I believe the greatest value in attending ATP is the opportunity to instruct at ATP.

I had the honor of other options that would have paid more and afforded me more time off, but ended up with ATP for a few personal reasons and then alot of common reasons:

1) Guaranteed Income- Not too many schools out there offering a guaranteed income. As hiring slows, it is logical training will as well. For those going by the hour, it is going to hurt.

2) Multi time- Not going to get it anywhere else as much as at ATP.

3) "Agreements". Take it for what it is worth, but ATP does have some sort of relationship with alot of the regionals.

4) Motivation to get you hired -ATP goal in life is to keep their pipeline rolling, and an ATP instructor is the blockage at the top they need to get rolling. It has to be good to know they are extrememly motivated to keep you moving. So I am sure they will be exhausting opportunities to get people hired wherever and whenever they can.

Instructing at ATP has been a fun and rewarding challenge so far for me and I love the fact I fly gorgeous new twin aircraft around for a living now!

[777forever]

DO NOT do the 10 month self paced at ATP. Its the same price as the Fast Track. By going to ATP you are paying big mula for getting your ratings done fast(3 months). If you need 10 months you might as well go to an FBO and get it done in the same about of time for 1/3 of the price. Highly recommend Skymates. Some Indian students have gone zero to hero in 5 or 6 months

[Flight81]

Originally Posted by tiredofshoveling

I passed ATP's Jet Course. The "course" consisted of memorizing about half a dozen profiles and flows and parroting them in the ftd. The ftd was cool though. A bunch of military trainers operate the simulators and some current younger pilots and ex-pilots. Select the later times if you go to the school to avoid the military guys. They treat you like an enlistee not a paying customer. DO NOT pay for the school. Only go if you are a career student and when u have memorized the flows and profiles from the binder they send. Basically ignore the system portion of the binder as you are not tested on it in any way. I completed my ratings through both commercials and opted out of CFI "school". People were surprised I opted out. I think I would have made it but I decided to mitigate against that risk. ATP will not work with you if you are having problems.
I received 5 hours of training for my commercial multi-engine and 4 hours for my single engine commercial. I was lucky to pass the single engine as I hadn't flown a cessna in like 6 months. You will receive 5 hours for your MEI and 2 for you CII. You will have 7 hours to complete your single commercial and CFI together. Total dual given was about 40 hours 50 if you attend CFI school.
For CFI "school" be advised you will arrive on a sunday and and checkrides will be the following week. So one week to study, with 2 flights in there. Most people do pass eventually but the bust rate is extremely high and checkrides are 500 bucks. Not really proper preparation in my opinion. Las Vegas is a wreck.
I'd like to say that ATP is not the place to go for your flight training. My experience was generally negative, although I did better than many others. I had one bust on my instrument rating which could easily have been avoided if I had had a proper brief on the checkride. And if had my flights slightly more spaced out I may have done better. For the money you spend you are treated like complete dirt. There is an unecessary lack of attention given to students who undoutedly will struggle in some area. There is no ground. I made myself into a pilot of the seminole in the simulator at night. Without that I wouldn't have made it. I'll be gettin my CFI's at another school, where the pace is sane and you get some ground. I really didn't need much ground just someone to refer to when I was confused on a point. I'd be happy to speak with anyone regarding my experiences.

If you insist on attending go to a small location, and select the 10 month option if you can. Visit the location. Get a couple of students on the side and talk to them about the location, there are sometimes problems like lack of instructors etc. Try to go to an established location that is small.

ATP is particularly hard on younger students who are maybe not prepared or properly prepped for the pace of the program. Exercise your options. Many people, who are "washed out", I feel are too embarrassed to post here or too uninterested. Nearly all the students I talked with agreed with my opinion by the end of their training if not right away. Don't let ATP screw you. I met some excellent people though, nothing to do with ATP.



TOS

So in otherwords, you had to work hard...??? I'm heading there in a few weeks and they tell you from the start that you will have to work hard and study on your own. They tell you to have writtens done, they tell you you will NOT be spoonfed. They are upfront about all that. Sooo, if someone knows that from the start then its their own fault if they struggle in the program. You should know before hand if you can handle that type of training.

[meyers9163]

Well good write up. Hopefully those who are the LOVERS with glossy eyes will respect your thoughts on ATP. You are entitled to them and thus have them. Be proactive and share your feelings with people who are about to attend ATP. Nothing wrong with giving them the pros and the cons.

[tiredofshoveling]

Flight81

You sound pretty confident. Sounds like you are making the proper preparation. Please be careful. Where I was we had a particular student who was struggling in the beginning, but ended up doing well in the end. Many of the comments were "they knew it was a fast paced program" they need to step it up. Funny thing is those same people had problems later and did or were nearly washed out. ATP will NOT work with you. You will be out A LOT of money if you wash out after say the instrument training with NOTHING to show for it.

I would recommend finding a GOOD FBO or another school. I wont make any recommendations though, you will need to get your multi-time.

ITS not necessary to get done in 3 months anyway. Also ATP will hire you if you come from the outside if they need instructors.


Good Luck

TOS

[Flight81]

Originally Posted by tiredofshoveling

Flight81

You sound pretty confident. Sounds like you are making the proper preparation. Please be careful. Where I was we had a particular student who was struggling in the beginning, but ended up doing well in the end. Many of the comments were "they knew it was a fast paced program" they need to step it up. Funny thing is those same people had problems later and did or were nearly washed out. ATP will NOT work with you. You will be out A LOT of money if you wash out after say the instrument training with NOTHING to show for it.

I would recommend finding a GOOD FBO or another school. I wont make any recommendations though, you will need to get your multi-time.

ITS not necessary to get done in 3 months anyway. Also ATP will hire you if you come from the outside if they need instructors.


Good Luck

TOS

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the write-up. I FULLY believe in knowing both sides of the coin before making a decision. I have read just about every post in this forum and talked to many ATP grads before choosing the school.

And yes, I am confident.... Being an Officer in the Air Force kind of makes you that way, especially the career field I was in. I feel as if I am used to the fire hose method of training and expectations of doing on your own. Like I said in my first post, you should know what to expect before going into the training and if you can handle that type of training. If you dont know those two things then its that persons own fault....In my opinion...

[3enginejock]

I dont know, Im attending ATP right now in Riverside. I just passed my instrument checkride the other day and im starting the cross-country time building phase now for the commercial.

Ive never felt like I was not prepared for the checkrides, my instructor constantly spent time on the ground with me to make sure I was ready for the oral exam. We spent about 10+ hours sitting in a classroom going over oral exam questions for the instrument.

Maybe it changes from here on out I dont know we will have to see, but so far im pretty damn satisfied.

Sounds to me like you may have had a bad instructor, and youll get those at any flight school.

[Sled14]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

I dont know, Im attending ATP right now in Riverside. I just passed my instrument checkride the other day and im starting the cross-country time building phase now for the commercial.

Ive never felt like I was not prepared for the checkrides, my instructor constantly spent time on the ground with me to make sure I was ready for the oral exam. We spent about 10+ hours sitting in a classroom going over oral exam questions for the instrument.

Maybe it changes from here on out I dont know we will have to see, but so far im pretty damn satisfied.

Sounds to me like you may have had a bad instructor, and youll get those at any flight school.

Yeah same here. I got alot of ground for my private multi. I have a new instructor for instrument now and we do as much ground as we want. He asked us from the beginning if we wanted to do ground every day or once a week with whatever questions we have. I'm pretty good at self study so that isnt a problem for me, plus the instructors are around all the time and will be more than willing to go over whatever we want to. I have about a week and half before my instrument checkride and am feeling like everythings going really good so far.

[DL31082]

I agree with you on some points but on others I don't. I just finished up the program in ATL about 2 months ago. The program is extremely fast paced and you are right you do not get much ground school. That is why the program isn't a 141 program, they expect you to study at home. I never once had a problem getting an instructor to help me out if I was having a problem, but I had a great instructor. I never went got pushed into a checkride before I felt ready, but then again I never busted a checkride so I have nothing to blame on someone else. Your are right though if you start to fall behind they will make the decision to kick you out of the program. They expect you to work hard all of the time and they are not scared to tell you that up front. The only time frame I had a problem with was the CFI school. It is more like a CFI study session, but 4 hours of flying the same exact maneuvers that you have been flying for the past 2 months shouldn't need more time then that. Yes you only get 2hrs for CFII, but again you just finished your instrument time about a month ago. So all in all it is not that bad. It sucks that you had a hard time with the program, but at least in my case they told me exactly what to expect before I ever showed up and spent the money.

[fletchersteel]

I did not expect to get spoonfed at ATP, but I feel that the 90 day program was, and still is, not the best built product out there. My local FBO type school at home was much better at producing quality pilots, and not the "ATP assembly line" style. I went through the fast paced program and opted out of the CFI school for several reasons. A. The pass rate was really low. B. Literature from ATP said 2 weeks for CFI initial, everyone I knew was closer to 4 to 5 days. C. I felt that the training thus far was not adequate enough for CFI school. D. Personal issues, I ran out of money to keep the family running a home (my fault not ATP). I felt that the training I had received through the program was ok. It seemed they would teach the checkride and not the skills. I wanted to become the best pilot I could be, and not someone who only passed checkrides.

There are benefits from ATP that I received that are not always apparant. I met alot of really great students and some instructors there during my time in the trenches. The cross country's were a ton of fun, but considering the program cost, not sure if they were worth it there or not. Having dispatch tell you to fly through a building squall line during convective sigmets and thunderstorm warnings, in which the big birds were being diverted around, is not my idea of a good time!

Overall, I have mixed emotions about ATP. Looking back, I don't think that I would choose them again. It can be done much cheaper and much, much better locally (FBO's). Felt alot like college biology class, a number and not a student. Difference is I am shelling out the doe now, not uncle Sam! I think that the majority of the instructors cared about the students, but the machine did not. It just wanted another $60,000 from another sucker!

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by fletchersteel

I did not expect to get spoonfed at ATP, but I feel that the 90 day program was, and still is, not the best built product out there. My local FBO type school at home was much better at producing quality pilots, and not the "ATP assembly line" style. I went through the fast paced program and opted out of the CFI school for several reasons. A. The pass rate was really low. B. Literature from ATP said 2 weeks for CFI initial, everyone I knew was closer to 4 to 5 days. C. I felt that the training thus far was not adequate enough for CFI school. D. Personal issues, I ran out of money to keep the family running a home (my fault not ATP). I felt that the training I had received through the program was ok. It seemed they would teach the checkride and not the skills. I wanted to become the best pilot I could be, and not someone who only passed checkrides.

There are benefits from ATP that I received that are not always apparant. I met alot of really great students and some instructors there during my time in the trenches. The cross country's were a ton of fun, but considering the program cost, not sure if they were worth it there or not. Having dispatch tell you to fly through a building squall line during convective sigmets and thunderstorm warnings, in which the big birds were being diverted around, is not my idea of a good time!

Overall, I have mixed emotions about ATP. Looking back, I don't think that I would choose them again. It can be done much cheaper and much, much better locally (FBO's). Felt alot like college biology class, a number and not a student. Difference is I am shelling out the doe now, not uncle Sam! I think that the majority of the instructors cared about the students, but the machine did not. It just wanted another $60,000 from another sucker!

Dispatch does not take away your PIC authority. Why would you fly through a squall line just because dispatch sent you a route that says to. You call them, you tell them the situation and wait it out or get another route. The first thing my instructor at ATP told me when passing my instrument was dont let dispatch try and force you to fly in dangerous conditions, you are PIC and the final authority lies with you. Then again dont abuse that authority just beacuse you get lazy and dont feel like flying that day.

Is the program expensive? Yes
Is there other programs that get you this much multi engine time that fast? No there is not.
Is there any other program that will get your from Private Pilot to CMEL, Instrument, CFI,II,MEI in 90 days? No, not that I know of.

Thats the bottem line really, theres good and bad instructors at every school you go to. Again ive never felt rushed so far. You have your oppinion and I respect it but again I really think your issues have more to do with having a bad instructor than ATP itself.

[surreal1221]

But but but. . .why not?

They advert says they've had over 400 students go to the airlines this year!!?!11

I WANNA FLY FOR THE AIRLINES!!1 I'M GONNA GOTO ATP!!!1

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

But but but. . .why not?

They advert says they've had over 400 students go to the airlines this year!!?!11

I WANNA FLY FOR THE AIRLINES!!1 I'M GONNA GOTO ATP!!!1

[fletchersteel]

It was not me that dispatch tried to over ride my PIC authority, it actually happened on three different occasions by several students. It is the fact that you payed a lot of money to learn to fly, and pay for your cross countries, only to let dispatch push you around while you are still paying for it. Understandably, the airline dispatchers may try the same things on a PIC during their career, but it should not be that way while paying for your training.

Before I committed to ATP, I priced out my local FBO. It was an $18,000 difference in price. Lower price for the same hours, same aircraft, and the same cross countries as ATP. Why did I chose ATP? I chose b/c I could not get a loan at home to cover living expenses, the interest rate for ATP was much lower than home, and I assumed that I would be able to instruct for ATP afterwards.

3engine, I would have to agree with you on your reply. There were some really good instructors at ATP, but my issue was with the machine itself. I had a difficult time with the way the system was built. When they tell you that you have x amount of hours to learn something in flight, that is where I begin to having problems. It was not often that the machine would work with an individual. I think that was my biggest complaint. No individualism. ATP or the highway. No more, no less.

[meyers9163]

Oh lordy. One person says not to attend and we basically jump on him. Meyers and Delups have said things negative over the years and we get yelled at that we know nothing and should not say such things. Amazing how those who have been there and done things dont know anything. Those who have moved onto the 121 world know nada. The fact of the matter is ATP isnt what its cracked up to be.

For a previous post. There are programs you can get as much Multi and do it cheaper. There are programs you can do it as fast as you want and if you want to get it done in 90 days you can. There are programs in which have agreement with airlines. There are programs that have way better CFI's then ATPs and others that dont. There are programs in which take 6 months because the last three are spent on doing a CFI and making sure their students know their crap before they instruct (Ariben, Skymates, Falcon) just to name a few sponors on this website. Thus you get what you pay for. You pay to get your crap done as fast as possible no matter what the cost. And at the end that's what you get. Your ratings done no matter how many you fail, no matter how much it cost you in retraining and no matter how much you go into debt. And ultimately there have been quite a few FEDEX babies who just left the PFN location who had the attitude, "My dad works for Fedex I'll take the jet course and get hired with Pinnacle." Well guess what? Pinnacle isnt hiring right now and its unlikely they are going anywhere. Probably going somewhere else now to do their CFIs.

So in the end. If you speak negative of ATP on here you are clueless. If you speak positive you know it all. In the end neither of the sides know anything expect how to bash on each other and carry on pointless and mindless thread wars on public forums. Thus in the end right now the industry is taking. Many qualified 121 piltos are without jobs and anyone training probably should be willing to instruct for about a year before things are going to pick up. But again what would I know.

[DE727UPS]

"Is there any other program that will get your from Private Pilot to CMEL, Instrument, CFI,II,MEI in 90 days? No, not that I know of."

No, and that's a good thing....

Going through all those ratings that fast is a bad idea. You get all these "licenses to learn" all at once without taking the time to do the "learn" part in between. And then you go out and teach the next poor newb...

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Is there any other program that will get your from Private Pilot to CMEL, Instrument, CFI,II,MEI in 90 days? No, not that I know of."

No, and that's a good thing....

Going through all those ratings that fast is a bad idea. You get all these "licenses to learn" all at once without taking the time to do the "learn" part in between. And then you go out and teach the next poor newb...

Well said man.

[fletchersteel]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Well said man.

Agreed

[tiredofshoveling]

RAL was a rocking location from what I remember D/D cafe and all. Its like I said go to the smaller locations. You dont need any corporate "chief pilots" walking around busting you out of the program. I learned more from the chief mechanic.
I made a bad decision going to a location where you can fly everyday. I'm from the midwest so I was sick of weather related delays. But at ATP you want weather related delays, to chair fly or study etc. I'm not a slacker and I knew many people who attended ATP who were not slackers and had rough time on a rating etc. What ATP does may come back to bite them one day. The boom is over so ATP's insane pace looses some appeal. I'm going to a older respected CFI school. Its a month long and I'm taking my time studying the PTS and flying the maneuvers prior to heading out. With the amount of people that were washed out at my location I'm very surprised that their are not more negative posts here. Some people did deserve it, many did not. I agree somewhat with the "machine" analogy. However its not a "machine" its bad management. A company that has grown too quickly without more oversite. Management creates the environment which the student operates. Things are the way they are because management wants it and fosters that environment. The CFI's are tools to be used. Some are very good. Most are good enough, some are outright bad. Please be careful ATP is NOT what its cracked up to be.

TOS

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

Not feeling the laughs today huh?

Seems to be a bug going around this place.

The inability to laugh. No cure as of yet.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Is there any other program that will get your from Private Pilot to CMEL, Instrument, CFI,II,MEI in 90 days? No, not that I know of."

No, and that's a good thing....

Going through all those ratings that fast is a bad idea. You get all these "licenses to learn" all at once without taking the time to do the "learn" part in between. And then you go out and teach the next poor newb...

What do you call the minimum 85 hours required before you can start, +25 PIC XC hours. What do you call the time building phase between Instrument and Commercial? Your welcome to your oppinion but im sorry its flat out wrong.

ATP students build the same experiance that anyone else builds at an FBO, they just fly more often which is why it gets done quicker. The only part where experiance may be lacking is when your at CFI school.

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

What do you call the minimum 85 hours required before you can start, +25 PIC XC hours.

85 hours...Big freaking deal. I call that about any 3 weeks of log book time over any of the past couple months.

85 hours +25 PIC XC hours....laughable.