Dont Attend ATP

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

I choose ATP over my old FBO at Merritt Island because I did want to get through in 90 days. I know what the industry is like, in this industry you can't be scared by slowdowns in hiring, there will always be waves in the aviation industry. I will most likely go back and teach at my old FBO and be their primary multi instructor when I get back. I will also be working to help ferry some small twins for a friend who is very involved in aircraft sales. There are many outlets in the aviation world, I don't know if I will ever wind up working for an airline, but at least I will be qualified if I want to.

ATP's firehose method fits my style, I always did better in college during the summer when I was taking enough classes to keep me totally swamped by school. I guess, to each his own though.

[moose]

Don't get me wrong, I performed extremely well while attending ATP (finished ppl+90 day course in 120 days) but the reason for it is because I had a ton of help from mentors outside the program. It seemed as though instructors would find the guys that were able to keep up with the pace and left the guys who needed a little extra attention behind. It was sad to see my career partner bust 2 checkrides because of something the instructor could have spent a few more hours on. He eventually was given the boot even though his short comings were caused by the instructorS. I guess making sure we knew what order the DE would want to see the maneuvers in was a little more important.

I never thought it was a good instructor/bad instructor issue. It was more the ill informed, lack of experience instructors that caused the issue.

[DenverPilot8]

As I was going to attend ATP in March of this year I can say that I had weighted the pros/Cons of ATP Vs and FBO. But through all my analysis I can't understand why anyone would pay the money to go there NOW. In the current enviornment the cost justification seems crazy now (kinda was before the downturn too).

[BobDDuck]

So I wonder what has changed? 5 years ago it was VERY rare for a student to get booted out of the program. In the entire almost 2 years I was at ATP (between being a student and instructing) I think I saw maybe 3 guys get let go. And one of them was for drinking IN an airplane. Back then it was more common for the instructor to get kicked out then the problem student.

Now it seems pretty common for people to be let go with some regularity. Has the tolerances ATP has gotten that much higher? Has the skills/maturity/dedication of the students gotten that much lower? Is the quality of instruction that much worse?

Anybody?

[Airdale]

Wow, 3 years since I went to ATP and the same arguments are being made! Awesome!!

Trust me, get over a year experience at the Airlines and you'll forget all about ATP and their crappy program, then you'll realize the whole idea they paint in your head about the Airlines is a joke. And the agreements with airlines? Thats a marketing joke too.

The quality of training you get at ATP is DIRECTLY related to your instructor. I got lucky and had GREAT instructors when I did the 10-month program. I felt like my instructors gave me some great ground and air instruction. A lot of people I know got stuck with CFI's who were lazy and never lifted a marker on the board.

I agree with Bobbyduck, you can't blanket all of ATP instructors. I had good instructors and I tried to pass that on to my students as well.

Looking back, the experience I had at ATP was preparation enough to fly a Beech 1900 in the Northeast, but my first job on the 1900 is where I REALLY learned to fly.

Where you get your training is such a small part of your career. I'd opt for a really good instructor at a local school where the price is much cheaper. I used to advocate for ATP until I got some experience at the Airlines and realized that ATP was mostly just marketing hype. The multi time helped me get the first job, but I feel kind of stupid for not trying to get the stuff done cheaper.

Now I'm getting furloughed and still have that loan from ATP.

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Wow, 3 years since I went to ATP and the same arguments are being made! Awesome!!

Now I'm getting furloughed and still have that loan from ATP.

Yep, same old same old. Especially about the CFI school in Vegas The training is not hard, CFI school though you're on your own and I really do believe that the planets have to align for you to get your CFI ratings succesuly. There are so many things going against you, instructors, weather, timing, your will in the bumpy 120 degree heat, very limited time to get things done, and I think that's where people get pissed of the most at ATP and feel like they got ripped off.

My example, I did really well the start of CFI school. My first flight on right seat went real good with the instructor and he even commented that I was one of the better guys he'd seen coming out of RAL location in quite some time....(summer of 07 guys didn't like RAL, something about santa clause examiners) Then we had to do the same thing with FRANK. But what happened was that my flight got scheduled for the afternoon and for some reason I didn't feel great that day but we had to go anyways. In the 120 degree bumpy air, even a seasoned instructor would probably had a hard time teaching let alone a guy who only had 2 hours of teaching from the right seat in a TWIN!!!! So I didn't get signed off by the GOD himself and that's where things got sour.

Still say whatever you want about atp but I learned a lot from that place. Particularly that no-one but your self will help you get through a flight training program. I guarantee you those that ask a lot of questions and need hand holding through all the steps will not make it through an airline training event. Yea all the stuff ATP does is a lame recreation of airline procedures but it's surprisingly similar and it does prepare you for airline training. Also the 75 hours that you get to fly as PIC around the country will make you into a better pilot, guarantee, that's where I think I got my moneys worth out of ATP and got the confidence required to be a commercial pilot. It's expensive but I'd say ATP is still the best value out there.

[Capt. Caucasian]

Who wants to hear the story of an ATP grad from 1997? It ends with a job a SouthernJets.

[FD4life]

I think one thing people need to look at with ATP, is first like most people say, it depends on the instructor. My time at ATP as both a student and instructor were descent. If you have a great instructor (Swank'nassious) to help you out you can do very well. If you don't, find one and talk to them. The good instructors are always willing to help out a student. Also, instructors are FORCED to work for more than they should at ATP. Students need to understand that some of their instructors would love to help them out more, but are so beaten down by the machine that is ATP, they can only do enough to keep the company off their back. For students, put in the work that is required and you'll do well. While I was an instructor, some students thought ATP was a big party and did not put in the work required to get that many ratings in such a short time span. The students who worked hard did well in the course, the ones who didn't did not. ATP is what you make it. Yeah, it is not for everyone, but it can be a descent place to go to. I left ATP to fly cargo and have done very well in all the training and on the line. I have not felt deficient in one area.

[Lead Sled]

All I'm thinking about now is that it sounded great a year ago, you could "race to the bottom" in less than a year. But now, seems like furloughed RJ pilots with 121 experience will beat out newbies for awhile to come. The "fast track" seems more like a 2 to 3 year deal rather than 7 to 12 months. I was impressed with what I saw on my tour at ATP but I think I'll sleep on it awhile longer at this point.

[FD4life]

Yeah, ATP's whole marketing strategy is "get there first!", well, that is not gonna work anymore because no one is getting hired. People should use the downturn to take their time, work on the ratings at their pace, and make the best out of the downturn.

[ppragman]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Wow, 3 years since I went to ATP and the same arguments are being made! Awesome!!

Trust me, get over a year experience at the Airlines and you'll forget all about ATP and their crappy program, then you'll realize the whole idea they paint in your head about the Airlines is a joke. And the agreements with airlines? Thats a marketing joke too.

The quality of training you get at ATP is DIRECTLY related to your instructor. I got lucky and had GREAT instructors when I did the 10-month program. I felt like my instructors gave me some great ground and air instruction. A lot of people I know got stuck with CFI's who were lazy and never lifted a marker on the board.

I agree with Bobbyduck, you can't blanket all of ATP instructors. I had good instructors and I tried to pass that on to my students as well.

Looking back, the experience I had at ATP was preparation enough to fly a Beech 1900 in the Northeast, but my first job on the 1900 is where I REALLY learned to fly.

Where you get your training is such a small part of your career. I'd opt for a really good instructor at a local school where the price is much cheaper. I used to advocate for ATP until I got some experience at the Airlines and realized that ATP was mostly just marketing hype. The multi time helped me get the first job, but I feel kind of stupid for not trying to get the stuff done cheaper.

Now I'm getting furloughed and still have that loan from ATP.

Truest words ever spoken. You really learn to fly at your first job.

[rickurukus]

Originally Posted by tiredofshoveling

I passed ATP's Jet Course. The "course" consisted of memorizing about half a dozen profiles and flows and parroting them in the ftd. The ftd was cool though. A bunch of military trainers operate the simulators and some current younger pilots and ex-pilots. Select the later times if you go to the school to avoid the military guys. They treat you like an enlistee not a paying customer. DO NOT pay for the school. Only go if you are a career student and when u have memorized the flows and profiles from the binder they send. Basically ignore the system portion of the binder as you are not tested on it in any way. I completed my ratings through both commercials and opted out of CFI "school". People were surprised I opted out. I think I would have made it but I decided to mitigate against that risk. ATP will not work with you if you are having problems.
I received 5 hours of training for my commercial multi-engine and 4 hours for my single engine commercial. I was lucky to pass the single engine as I hadn't flown a cessna in like 6 months. You will receive 5 hours for your MEI and 2 for you CII. You will have 7 hours to complete your single commercial and CFI together. Total dual given was about 40 hours 50 if you attend CFI school.
For CFI "school" be advised you will arrive on a sunday and and checkrides will be the following week. So one week to study, with 2 flights in there. Most people do pass eventually but the bust rate is extremely high and checkrides are 500 bucks. Not really proper preparation in my opinion. Las Vegas is a wreck.
I'd like to say that ATP is not the place to go for your flight training. My experience was generally negative, although I did better than many others. I had one bust on my instrument rating which could easily have been avoided if I had had a proper brief on the checkride. And if had my flights slightly more spaced out I may have done better. For the money you spend you are treated like complete dirt. There is an unecessary lack of attention given to students who undoutedly will struggle in some area. There is no ground. I made myself into a pilot of the seminole in the simulator at night. Without that I wouldn't have made it. I'll be gettin my CFI's at another school, where the pace is sane and you get some ground. I really didn't need much ground just someone to refer to when I was confused on a point. I'd be happy to speak with anyone regarding my experiences.

If you insist on attending go to a small location, and select the 10 month option if you can. Visit the location. Get a couple of students on the side and talk to them about the location, there are sometimes problems like lack of instructors etc. Try to go to an established location that is small.

ATP is particularly hard on younger students who are maybe not prepared or properly prepped for the pace of the program. Exercise your options. Many people, who are "washed out", I feel are too embarrassed to post here or too uninterested. Nearly all the students I talked with agreed with my opinion by the end of their training if not right away. Don't let ATP screw you. I met some excellent people though, nothing to do with ATP.



TOS

some people need to man up ... atp is great and cfi school is a cakewalk

went through whole program in 90 days exactly spent exactly 2 weeks at cfi in vegas... mei on monday cfi single on thursday and cfii on saturday.. busy week but all you gotta do is study and its soooo easy

dont bash on a flight school when you dont know how to work hard simple as that ive seen way too many people come through here and "opt out" because they are scared of cfi school... one thing to say is grow a pair

l8

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by rickurukus

some people need to man up ... atp is great and cfi school is a cakewalk

went through whole program in 90 days exactly spent exactly 2 weeks at cfi in vegas... mei on monday cfi single on thursday and cfii on saturday.. busy week but all you gotta do is study and its soooo easy

dont bash on a flight school when you dont know how to work hard simple as that ive seen way too many people come through here and "opt out" because they are scared of cfi school... one thing to say is grow a pair

l8

Gotta love Mr. Internet Tough guy.

So tell us...what experience do you have? Other than the ink still wet?

[ljg]

The way I see it 95% of the users on this board have their ink wet. There's very little difference between all of us, in my opinion.

Different people have different learning styles. Atp is probably great for some and perilous for others.

[rickurukus]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Gotta love Mr. Internet Tough guy.

So tell us...what experience do you have? Other than the ink still wet?

715 total time 420 multi 400 dual given with majority of that time in multi

not too wet but still wet

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by ljg

The way I see it 95% of the users on this board have their ink wet. There's very little difference between all of us, in my opinion.

Different people have different learning styles. Atp is probably great for some and perilous for others.

Shhh! It's entertaining though!

This is coming from a webmaster that went to ERAU, wouldn't go back but figures it's probably good for some people, but not for others. More than one way to skin a cat.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Shhh! It's entertaining though!

This is coming from a webmaster that went to ERAU, wouldn't go back but figures it's probably good for some people, but not for others. More than one way to skin a cat.

I'm never coming to this website again.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Gotta love Mr. Internet Tough guy.

So tell us...what experience do you have? Other than the ink still wet?

Yeah agree totally Dave..... I think many on this forum have been to ATP and have experienced many things..... Those whom opt out are probably the ones who just cant cram what takes a year to learn in 1 week of CFI ground... just a wild thought.

[DL31082]

I agree with Meyers CFI school at ATP is really a joke, and this coming from someone who went to ATP and finished in 90 days without a bust. CFI school is more like a CFI study session, but that being said I kinda feel sorry for all of the people that opted out of CFI. It's hard enough to get a job right now with your CFI let alone without.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by rickurukus

715 total time 420 multi 400 dual given with majority of that time in multi

not too wet but still wet

Well you're definitely on your way.

My point is that "macho" attitudes, while somewhat common in this field, are absurd. Just because you were able to succeed through ATP's program (like myself and many others), doesn't mean that everyone can have the information shoved down their throat in such a short time frame and be successful. This doesn't mean they need to "grow a pair", it just means that maybe they actually need instruction, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I think ATP's program was good in the sense that it fit my desire to learn aviation, I was able to fly well maintained aircraft and they were all multi engine. The price was a huge selling point for me when I went there because you couldn't get all the ratings in a single for that price in my hometown.

Putting down people and telling them to "grow a pair" when it comes to learning aviation is not a healthy nor mature approach. I certainly hope you aren't telling your students that if they aren't doing the VMC demo properly in 4hrs of stick time that they need to "grow a pair". Rich T. is good guy and he's an awesome pilot, but his approach to students, customers is wrong. ATP is not the best school and they provide nothing better or worse than any other school. Rich likes to run his place in Jax like its some sort of privelaged military academy. Well, the military doesn't scream and yell at people in airplanes, especially when they are learning how to fly. Don't let Rich convince you that Aviation is some elite corner of the universe fit for only those who can solo in 8hrs and get all 3 CFI ratings in less than 2 weeks.

I know Rich. He was my instructor for my PPL and he pushed me to solo at 10hrs. He creates an unhealthy environment in an airplane with people just learning to fly, and your "grow a pair" attitude is a classic example of a Rich T. influenced ATP instructor.

When you get to the Airlines, you need to drop whatever attitude ATP plants in your head. With passengers sitting behind you, there is no place in the professional cockpit for a macho attitude. I don't care how good of a pilot you think you are coming out of ATP because you got all your ratings in 90 days, you will make mistakes and the first time that Turbine aircraft hands you your ass on a golden plate, you'll be damn thankful if your Captain just smiles and says "My controls". Believe me, it WILL happen and more than once.

[rickurukus]

lol ya i did have a little bit of a macho attitude i guess i dont think im good or privileged or anything i just hate seeing people whine constantly about something that really isnt as bad as they make it seem especially when they havent even been there or tried it how would they even know..... and dont think i pass this on to my students lol i dont talk like that but i do try to convince them that as long as they apply themselves they will do fine... as for the rich t comment thats hilarious and so true ahha

[SteveC]

Punctuation is your friend!

[rickurukus]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Punctuation is your friend!

im not even gonna dignify that with a response

[SteveC]

Ah, but you just did! Irony alert!

[Fly_Unity]

[quote=Airdale;925744]

When you get to the Airlines.... [/quote]

One of my bigest perks about ATP is that most everyone who came out of their program cant really see anything except the airlines.

I just read a statistic that GA carries more passengers then all the airlines combined every day. Yet ATP and JC seems to think Airlines is what flying is all about. And oh my goodness I don't know how many times I hear from these pilots "when you get to the airlines you will really learn how to fly" My co worker has 7000 hours in the bush flying the small planes, and it was funny to hear a 1000 hour airline pilot asking this guy when hes going to get a "real job", and then he freaked out when he heard we was going into hard IMC in a Cessna with no auto pilot!!.