Dont Attend ATP

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

It dont bother me that you guys post your negative exeriance about a school... It bothers me when you guys here are saying theres only one way to go about it and ATP is as worthless as it gets. I cant stand when I see people tell me that ATP is the only way to go either. I remember when you was going through training you would post about ATP too just like these other new ATP guys are now... maybe you should read some of your post history just for fun?

I dont think anyone is saying there's ONLY one way in which you can train. However the product as an over all product can be thought of by many as subpar. However you are right as I went through CFI school I was very pleased. There are certain RATINGS I highly recommend ATP for. I highly recommend people doing their Atp, CMEL add on, MEI/CFII and if they had CFI school doing the inclusive CFI program.

However I do not really find the product of the 90 day program as very quality. I saw too many things I did not think were anything better then subpar. That's all. Anyone who comes on and ask about other programs I highly recommend atp. Anyone who can and has time to do training I recommend a FBO route. If there's a career changer who has the money and wants to blow it, i might recommend the 90 day program. It just depends on the situation.

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

IMO theres nothing worse then responding to someone who has NEVER been through the WHOLE accelerated program yet they think its the worse thing on earth.

My response is to the attitude of 3 engine, and a lot of other private pilots at day 40 in ATP's program. Granted you get some punk kids at FBO's, but i've seen far more private pilots in training with this entitlement come out of ATP and the likes lately.

And no, i've never been through the WHOLE program. In fact, never been through any of the program. Did all of my ratings for half the cost, and paid for 4.3 hours of multi engine time. The rest, I was paid for...And I could also say, I don't think i'd ever have landed my dream corporate job, paying nearly 2.5 times my peers at the regionals, if I did go to ATP. Works both ways buddy.

[stillageek]

Originally Posted by tiredofshoveling

I had one bust on my instrument rating which could easily have been avoided if I had had a proper brief on the checkride. And if had my flights slightly more spaced out I may have done better.
TOS

Ummm proper brief on the checkride? It's called the PTS. If you can't make it through ATP 90 day course good luck with airline ground school. The same fire hose training at ATP is the same fire hose training at an airline. My training at Eagle was a little harder for me as I was a self paced student (I finished the private and career in 10 months..so I wasn't tooo self paced...worked a 40 hour a week job).

I'm not saying ATP is perfect. But if you are an adult (not just 18+) and 100% research and understand what you are getting in to...ATP is just fine.

[Doug Taylor]

It's pretty simple folks.

DO NOT attend a flight school that advertises "accelerated instruction" expecting spoon feeding.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

My response is to the attitude of 3 engine, and a lot of other private pilots at day 40 in ATP's program. Granted you get some punk kids at FBO's, but i've seen far more private pilots in training with this entitlement come out of ATP and the likes lately.

And no, i've never been through the WHOLE program. In fact, never been through any of the program. Did all of my ratings for half the cost, and paid for 4.3 hours of multi engine time. The rest, I was paid for...And I could also say, I don't think i'd ever have landed my dream corporate job, paying nearly 2.5 times my peers at the regionals, if I did go to ATP. Works both ways buddy.

My attidude? sorry maybe I did get a little heated in my last post...

My point is I dont like being told that I am some how less of a pilot simply because im going through a 90 day program. That is bullcrap and you know it.

ATP may not be the best school in the world but it is certainly not as bad as people on here make it out to be.

The fact that you didnt even attend ATP yet you knock it is even worse. If you did not go to the school you have little room to talk.

Those that did and had bad experiances sure, post your thoughts. But knock the instructors and the school, dont post saying the pilots that come out of ATP are horrible.

The examiners are fair, I studied my ass off for my checkrides and to have someone like you come here and diminish my success is insulting.

Again, if you dont like ATP the answer is simple, dont go. If you had a bad experiance im sorry for you but dont take it out on current students or people who went to got their ratings at ATP.

[rickdb]

You are right about ATP. They are a pilot shop who treat their customers like crap. Overall, I thought it was a better time than a local FBO, but absolutely no ground. Their selling point is the ME time, and of all the places I looked before I went I couldnt find a better deal.

But you are right, considering the customers are what drive and sustain ATP as a company, they treat you like crap.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Right now there is no reason to go to ATP. Go rush through your 90 day program, get 2 or 3 checkride busts if you're not careful/ready so you can then... look for a job when very few regionals are hiring 250 hour wonders? Or you can go at your own pace, maybe take two months longer but come out with no checkride busts (maybe) and still be in the same situation -- looking for a job.

I went throuh ATP -- I found the instruction was adequete. I felt prepared for my checkrides, even the initial CFI checkride. I just dont think the program is worth it now. It wouldn't even be worth it at the price I paid, which is a lot less than what it costs now.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by stillageek

Ummm proper brief on the checkride? It's called the PTS. If you can't make it through ATP 90 day course good luck with airline ground school. The same fire hose training at ATP is the same fire hose training at an airline. My training at Eagle was a little harder for me as I was a self paced student (I finished the private and career in 10 months..so I wasn't tooo self paced...worked a 40 hour a week job).

I'm not saying ATP is perfect. But if you are an adult (not just 18+) and 100% research and understand what you are getting in to...ATP is just fine.

Now I am not trying to poke fingers at anyone here. But you say you did the self pace program. I am wondering how many hours you got hired at AE with? The reason is because I would almost argue if you were a 200 hour pilot a lot of it could be that reason right there. There is NOTHING about a 121 training program that is insane and or tougher then college. Heck I would beg to say college was harder then 121 ground school. I know this is also echoed with many buddies at RAH, ASA, Skywest and also AE. Had quite a few buddies who were hired at AE. Never once did anyone say fire hose. Heck Comair nearly has a 12 week program. Needless to say I think this is the classic example about the fast pace programs. There's nothing in the 121 world in which ground school should be nearly impossible. You study and do your job 121 ground is really not that difficult. In the end it comes down to either A) you can fly or B) you cannot fly. In the end that's all there is about the 121 world and passing ground/simulator in my oppinion. Needless to say no one in my 20 failed out. All of them passed and none of which were 90 day wonders.

[3green]

Had quite a few buddies who were hired at AE. Never once did anyone say fire hose

Meyers is right, there was no fire hose at the schoolhouse in DFW. ATP if not anything is good at getting people in their front door. Nice advertisement with an RJ on it and +400 hired! says it all. Good luck to anyone going to any accellerated program right now, with the way the industry is there isn't anything going fast except furloughs, cutbacks and when your gonna pay that loan back.
</div>

[BillH]

Why get so worked up over ideology?
Hey Listen, you pick the school that fits your style and go for it. Once your sitting in the right seat of what ever you wanted to fly, none of that crap matters. If some one can't cut it, they will not become career pilots and they go back to their office job.
<edited>

[MichaelCPS]

Originally Posted by BillH

<Edited inappropriate comment>.

Did you forget the tag at the end there? That statement is going to get you in trouble. Not the most PC thing to say.

[anavalairman2]

"Good luck to anyone going to any accellerated program right now, with the way the industry is there isn't anything going fast except furloughs, cutbacks and when your gonna pay that loan back."


I like the idea of going accellerated right now, fast way to become an instructor and start building time so when the hiring does begin again, you'll be up to bat.

[MikeOH58]

Is that ATP's new slogan?

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

No just your righteous attitude since you started sitting in the right sit of a CRJ.

Making fun of someone who ends up in the same seat as you seems pretty ridiculous.
Each to their own.

Making fun of someone?

I don't think I pointed specifically towards one person. Just the overall general mindset of most "get there quick" individuals.

My righteous attitude has nothing to do with what equipment I'm flying. It should be pretty damn clear that I've held these same opinions (fly at a small FBO, or FBO-like establishment rather than a get there quick 90 day program - quality vs. quickness in my book) for some time - thanks in large part to those who pointed me in the right direction a little over 2 years ago.

Nevertheless. . .my explanations have never really stuck in your mind anyway Mike.

[Flight81]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Is that ATP's new slogan?

Nope.... It's common sense. Be ready when they call. It's being ahead of the curve. Think about it, when things pick up again then lots will be rushing to get their ratings and hours to get hired on. Those that get it done now will already be in line to get hired. Behind those furloughed of course...

[BillH]

Originally Posted by MichaelCPS

Did you forget the tag at the end there? That statement is going to get you in trouble. Not the most PC thing to say.

<Edited>

[BillH]

Originally Posted by Flight81

Nope.... It's common sense. Be ready when they call. It's being ahead of the curve. Think about it, when things pick up again then lots will be rushing to get their ratings and hours to get hired on. Those that get it done now will already be in line to get hired. Behind those furloughed of course...

Sure if you can find a job to keep yourself flying in the mean time... Consider yourself lucky today if your making money with your tickets...

[Flight81]

Originally Posted by BillH

Sure if you can find a job to keep yourself flying in the mean time... Consider yourself lucky today if your making money with your tickets...

I suppose your right.... However, like I've always said, you had better have a plane and a solid understanding of what your getting into when going to a school like this at a time like this. If you don't, then it's your fault for any hardship you may encounter, not ATP's fault. Sometimes I feel as those who talk bad about the school didn't have a plane or take serious the recommendations laid out by ATP. Just my opinion.

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Making fun of someone?

I don't think I pointed specifically towards one person. Just the overall general mindset of most "get there quick" individuals.

My righteous attitude has nothing to do with what equipment I'm flying. It should be pretty damn clear that I've held these same opinions (fly at a small FBO, or FBO-like establishment rather than a get there quick 90 day program - quality vs. quickness in my book) for some time - thanks in large part to those who pointed me in the right direction a little over 2 years ago.

Nevertheless. . .my explanations have never really stuck in your mind anyway Mike.

I guess I just don't get the knocking a path to the right seat of a regional jet. At the end of the day you uhhhh end up in the right seat of a regional jet. The folks that "got there quickly" probably have a better chance of not getting furloughed. If you are going to go the slow route and get a better quality learning experience, which I advocate by the way, I just wonder why you'd settle for that kind of a job. Sounds harsh but in all reality why would you want to share a seniority list with the likes of people you hate the way they go there.

[turbomax97]

Originally Posted by tiredofshoveling

Let me be clear, I have never and will never knock anyone for going to ATP. I am knocking the school itself. Primarily the management. It is a money making machine for them. That bubble will be coming to end. At my location they pushed people too hard particularly if you are having a hard time. The more people they wash out the more money they end up making off of them. I never read their contract, there was no point they basically can do whatever they want to you for any reason. If you look at the chief pilot cross-eyed they can kick you out. They then will issue a refund that will look something like this

40 hours of ftd @ $500 per = 20000
bunch of fees and what not = 10000

left over = 30 grand beat it

nothing to show for it

Be Careful, There are other schools out there will more sensible pay structures and individual quality instruction. After the instrument phase at ATP you basically get no more instruction.

TOS

Yes the pro-rated charge is steep but last I saw a few weeks ago it was $375 per hour of Seminole time + $125 per hour of FTD... You're being kind of outrageous with your example. Also, as I think we can all agree, the instruction you receive really depends on if your CFI felt like doing his job or not.

That being said - It's hard to advocate doing any kind of accelerated program for the next few years. There's no point.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

The training is different, that's the whole point. ATP's training SUCKS. They train you for the test, and only for the test, they know exactly what you'll be tested on, and that's what you are taught. There is very little real-world experience, no creative thinking, not much thinking at all infact.

You know, I sort of take offense to that. By the time I finished up instructing for them I had about 800 of dual given and 80 or so sign offs (plus a whole bunch of ATP rating non sign offs). I just went back through my records and I can count on one hand the number of guys I taught to "just pass the test" and those were mostly military guys who were going to be going back to flying their F16 in a completely different environment anyways. I did a hell of a lot more then teach just to the test. I covered the PTS. You can be damn sure I made sure they knew what the examiners were likely to do, but that was not the extent of the training. No "real world" experience? No "creative thinking"? I think not. I wouldn't dare put my name in a students log book as being ready for a ride unless I was sure they could hack it AFTER the ride.

You're painting ATP's instructors with an awfully large brush and it's sort of ticking me off.

[3green]

you had better have a plan and a solid understanding of what your getting into when going to a school like this at a time like this. If you don't, then it's your fault for any hardship you may encounter, not ATP's fault.

This is spot on. This school is like any other, it provides a service and its up to the consumer to make the choice. FBO would be more prudent with the lack of hiring right now at the regional level. I just think its much wiser to spend less for training in times like these with the industry at a virtual standstill in terms of hiring... think thats economics 101

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by mikecweb

I guess I just don't get the knocking a path to the right seat of a regional jet. At the end of the day you uhhhh end up in the right seat of a regional jet. The folks that "got there quickly" probably have a better chance of not getting furloughed. If you are going to go the slow route and get a better quality learning experience, which I advocate by the way, I just wonder why you'd settle for that kind of a job. Sounds harsh but in all reality why would you want to share a seniority list with the likes of people you hate the way they go there.

Well Mike, you bring up some great points. First and foremost though, I wouldn't say I settled for any job I've ever held. I'm not that desperate, lol.

Overall though man, this is obviously taking the thread off track. . .but. . .my personal options were that I didn't want to commute, and the availability and overall increased time it would take for me to personally get to the goal I set for myself and my wife when I left the military would not have been met. I already had enough set backs and the timing just was not going to work out if I continued down the path I was.

I think I did everything the correct way, and I didn't get hired at some scumbag operation (although it could be said all 121 regional operations are scumbag - debatable though).

Looking back though, I miss GA flying greatly and would enjoy it a great deal to get back into a light twin / single flying something other than student pilots around.

On the other side of the coin, I greatly appreciate the structure that 121 flying provides. It's the structure that I needed and desired.

Who knows what the future holds. . .perhaps I'm only building time so I can meet 135 minimums (eh?) . . . or perhaps I'm just enjoying the flying I have going on right now and will in the long term enjoy it even more. Who knows.

But you're right. . .I went through class with some of guys who went to ATP. I have to say though, they're great guys, two of the four were instructors (even more respect), the other two did the short cut CRJ course which it should be obviously clear is not something I support - nevertheless - they're both good guys to be around and I'm certainly in no position to evaluate their abilities as pilots, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give them just a little piece of my mind.

It should also be obviously clear that thanks to the wisdom gained from JetCareers I've developed some extremely pro-Labor, Pro-Professional Respect ideas, staying away from the actual scumbag operations (must they really be named?). Many of which includes the hatred towards PFJ/PFT establishments, and the negative impact of CRJ Courses, and poor labor relations at certain companies.

Because of these opinions and stances I ventured into this career with the knowledge to not devalue one's self by paying even more for training that one would get when hired by a company. If only more people could realize that, yes. . .it's the regionals - and it sucks - but spending 3-15 grand more for some course that you're not really getting any flight time out of, much less a real FAA certification is really just pouring money down the drain. All for what? 150-200 seniority places? That's nice if you were hired in 2005 or 2006. But if you were hiring in 2007 you're still close to the very bottom of a number of the companies that are putting, or will soon be, putting guys out on the street. Now what did that RJ Course get you? Now what did that 90 day PPL-CFI get you?

At least if (when) I'm sent out on the street, I won't have an extra 15 grand worth of debt hanging over my head - and I'll have some actual fond memories of GA flying that I can think back on instead of a blur of 90 days of go go go flying where I didn't really become an aviator but rather just another pilot factory widget.

Anyway - I'm off to watch Swingers with the old lady, and enjoy a brew.

[tiredofshoveling]

I think I started quite the post. Just a note about 200 replies and 5000 views are the most for any thread here on ATP forum. I'm up to about 75 and over 500 in about week.

Incidentally since we are a "country of whiners" regarding my instrument training my instructor was mia for the first 5 out of 21 days that I received at ATP. Wasn't my instructors fault, but I should of been set up with another instructor. That may not sound like a lot but when you have that limited time its good to get going asap. I ended up flying 7 hours 2 days before my checkride and 6 the day before, plus the flight plan. Out of a total of about 35 hours 13 in the last 2 days I wouldn't call efficient use of training time. I don't mind flying a lot but should have been more spaced out when you are training, to much is not productive.

And I never said I wanted to know exactly how the checkride was gonna go, but it would be nice for your instructor to sit down with you and talk about what might occur and what he has seen in the past from a given examiner. Thats just good checkride strategy.


TOS

Keep up the excellent posts, I'm learning ALOT

[moose]

I attended and finished ATP. Started with my PPL all the way through my CFI ratings and can say that it was the worst $39000 I ever invested into my flying career.

If I were given a chance to do it all over again I wouldn't think twice about doing it locally but unfortunately I don't have that luxury.

3engine: Only thing I have to say to you is that you have serious attitude adjustment coming your way and its going to leave a bruise on that ego of yours. Good luck with your career.