Dont Attend ATP

[mikecweb]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Not feeling the laughs today huh?

Seems to be a bug going around this place.

The inability to laugh. No cure as of yet.

No just your righteous attitude since you started sitting in the right sit of a CRJ.

Making fun of someone who ends up in the same seat as you seems pretty ridiculous.
Each to their own.

[Fly_Unity]

Before I went to ATP I went on these forums and it scared me to death about everyone here saying its soo hard and way to fast, and many people drop out. I almost didnt go because everyone saying it was like a fire-hose etc. However I went and did not find it that difficult. I mean common, How hard is it to learn to shoot approaches, and a learn a few more maneuvers?. You already know how to fly, Your writtens should be done. It still amazes me why it takes people beyond 90 days to do all this at a FBO. Why not get the training all over with, and then get paid to fly all while still learning? Its not like you stop learning the instant you get done with your training. You will still get to fly in all 4 seasons of weather, its just the last 2 you'll be getting paid to do it.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

85 hours...Big freaking deal. I call that about any 3 weeks of log book time over any of the past couple months.

85 hours +25 PIC XC hours....laughable.

Thats enough experiance imo to start instrument training. Feel free to disagree.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

What do you call the minimum 85 hours required before you can start, +25 PIC XC hours. What do you call the time building phase between Instrument and Commercial? Your welcome to your oppinion but im sorry its flat out wrong.

ATP students build the same experiance that anyone else builds at an FBO, they just fly more often which is why it gets done quicker. The only part where experiance may be lacking is when your at CFI school.

Well to be quite honest I call the PIC time in which Private students log in actual while having a CFI in the right seat ILLEGAL. However ATP is known for distorting the regulations and getting DPE's to buy it. If they dont the DPE's no longer are allowed to do checkrides for atp.

Also I would say coming from someone who has family in the BUISNESS. You should know that Don who works for UPS is speaking from his personal experience. I guarnatee it that he knows a heck of a lot more about the real world then you and I do combine. In addition he knows though experience why he has his feelings the way he does. In addition as he already said and it cant be worded any more correct you are getting liscense to learn. How much are you learning when your liscense all come in 90 days. Its a valid point.

Also one last thing how much time of that is SOLO? How many students actually fly their cross countries with a HOOD on? How much of that time should we take away due to it not actually being safety pilot time when the hood isnt being worn? We can continue on if you would like. Basically in the end I'm saying that yes things are working out so far for you at ATP. And that's great. However there are some people on here who know quite a bit themselves and Don being one. I'd really take a few minutes to put some thought into what he has to say. Its got some validity to it.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Well to be quite honest I call the PIC time in which Private students log in actual while having a CFI in the right seat ILLEGAL. However ATP is known for distorting the regulations and getting DPE's to buy it. If they dont the DPE's no longer are allowed to do checkrides for atp.

Also I would say coming from someone who has family in the BUISNESS. You should know that Don who works for UPS is speaking from his personal experience. I guarnatee it that he knows a heck of a lot more about the real world then you and I do combine. In addition he knows though experience why he has his feelings the way he does. In addition as he already said and it cant be worded any more correct you are getting liscense to learn. How much are you learning when your liscense all come in 90 days. Its a valid point.

Also one last thing how much time of that is SOLO? How many students actually fly their cross countries with a HOOD on? How much of that time should we take away due to it not actually being safety pilot time when the hood isnt being worn? We can continue on if you would like. Basically in the end I'm saying that yes things are working out so far for you at ATP. And that's great. However there are some people on here who know quite a bit themselves and Don being one. I'd really take a few minutes to put some thought into what he has to say. Its got some validity to it.

I did, and I understand sort of where he is coming from. Look at it from this angle.

2 Commercial pilots each having 350 hours.

Pilot A- Spent 5 years at an FBO getting to his multi commercial and 350 hours, he only flew once or twice a week, sometimes he only flew a couple times a month.

Pilot B - Went to ATP, spent around 90 days...

Both pilots have the same amount of experiance, but according to Don... Pilot A is somehow more experianced than Pilot B simply because he went to an FBO and spent years getting his license... That does not and will not make sense to me. Sure ATP costs more but that is a choice, the training is no differant.

[MikeOH58]

Information grows and matures over time. There is a lot more to learning aside from what a book tells you. Unfortunately, you are being asked to learn so much information in a 90 day period, that you simply don't have time to sit back, think, and explore theory's and idea's, because you will end up 5 lessons behind.

You need to slow your roll 3 engine. I'm fairly new to this game of being a professional pilot, but if there is one thing i've learned, it's sit back and listen. There will ALWAYS be people with more time, experience, flown more airplanes, and that have been there and done that than you.

[3enginejock]

I am listening to people, im listening to my uncle who has been flying for airlines since he was 19. Im listening to my godfather who also has been flying since he was 20. My grandfather who flew Connies and DC6's, who is still now a FAA inspector. My father who has been a FE since he was 19 on a DC8, 707 and 727. I could go on for awhile listing various cousins and family friends but whats the point. Not one has told me that ATP is a bad choice or recommended otherwise.

All of these people tell me that I am doing a great job and I made the correct choice. I did not have to get a loan to go to ATP which is why I dont have to deal with the whole debt thing, I got an inheritance that paid for ATP. I also have a job waiting for me as soon as I get my multi-commercial (im still getting the CFI's just incase I ever want to instruct). So getting the ratings quickly was a major + for me.

Im not trying to boast, im just letting you know why I get upset when someone starts spreading complete crap about a school simply because they get you done with your ratings in 90 days. Dont like the school? Dont go. But dont knock the ones that do.

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

I did, and I understand sort of where he is coming from. Look at it from this angle.

2 Commercial pilots each having 350 hours.

Pilot A- Spent 5 years at an FBO getting to his multi commercial and 350 hours, he only flew once or twice a week, sometimes he only flew a couple times a month.

Pilot B - Went to ATP, spent around 90 days...

Both pilots have the same amount of experiance, but according to Don... Pilot A is somehow more experianced than Pilot B simply because he went to an FBO and spent years getting his license... That does not and will not make sense to me. Sure ATP costs more but that is a choice, the training is no differant.

The training is different, that's the whole point. ATP's training SUCKS. They train you for the test, and only for the test, they know exactly what you'll be tested on, and that's what you are taught. There is very little real-world experience, no creative thinking, not much thinking at all infact.

Were I in charge of hiring, I would hire the 350 hour guy with 25 multi-engine hours who puttered around the countryside by himself doing cross-countries to build his time over the 350 hour ATP grad who has 300 multi-engine hours.

Multi-engine time is a box to tick, that's all it is. It's not hard to fly a twin, no different than flying a complex single, until an engine packs it in, and anyone with real multi-engine time will have very little spent on one engine.

[3enginejock]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

The training is different, that's the whole point. ATP's training SUCKS. They train you for the test, and only for the test, they know exactly what you'll be tested on, and that's what you are taught. There is very little real-world experience, no creative thinking, not much thinking at all infact.

Were I in charge of hiring, I would hire the 350 hour guy with 25 multi-engine hours who puttered around the countryside by himself doing cross-countries to build his time over the 350 hour ATP grad who has 300 multi-engine hours.

Multi-engine time is a box to tick, that's all it is. It's not hard to fly a twin, no different than flying a complex single, until an engine packs it in, and anyone with real multi-engine time will have very little spent on one engine.

I disagree and im glad your not in charge of hiring..

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by Ralgha

The training is different, that's the whole point. ATP's training SUCKS. They train you for the test, and only for the test, they know exactly what you'll be tested on, and that's what you are taught. There is very little real-world experience, no creative thinking, not much thinking at all infact.

Were I in charge of hiring, I would hire the 350 hour guy with 25 multi-engine hours who puttered around the countryside by himself doing cross-countries to build his time over the 350 hour ATP grad who has 300 multi-engine hours.

Multi-engine time is a box to tick, that's all it is. It's not hard to fly a twin, no different than flying a complex single, until an engine packs it in, and anyone with real multi-engine time will have very little spent on one engine.

Good thing your not in charge of hiring :P


Seriously though.. both pilots from both schools have the same experience... For me... I remember more of my ATP experience just because that's all I ever did... my FBO private is almost totally faded away..

Just like learning a language.. I remember way more words when going to Mexico for a week vs taking a year of it at school.. that's just my style of learning.. some people like Don (UPS) may be different

[Fly_Unity]

In all reality getting your ratings is such a SMALL part of your flying career, I can barely even remember if I learned anything then. Just get the ratings cheapest way possible and start your life. 2 years down the road you will look back and see it didnt matter squat where you got it at.

[sdfcvoh]

Ah, the never-ending fast or slow entry method argument....

I'd be interested in a poll of fast-track graduates a few years down the road who realized once they were out in the real world just how much training they lacked by memorizing PTS standards. Those PTS standards are minimums for a reason.

I've done both fast and not-fast. I regret the fast part.

Fast- you learn to just pass PTS standards and checkrides. If you are motivated you can even get through - its not too tough.

Not-Fast- you learn to be a safe and really complete pilot. You truly correlate the knowledge, not just memorizing the PTS.

Make your own presumptions, but, listen to the guys on here with 1000s of hours that were flying when we were just glimmers in our parent's eyes. They have wisdom that just doesn't come from a zero to hero school.

[sdfcvoh]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

What do you call the minimum 85 hours required before you can start, +25 PIC XC hours.

. . . minimums.

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

Good thing your not in charge of hiring :P

Seriously though.. both pilots from both schools have the same experience... For me... I remember more of my ATP experience just because that's all I ever did... my FBO private is almost totally faded away..

I could be in charge of you passing IOE or not though. I don't care how the person I'm training got their initial training, but trust me, there is a difference, and the fast track is not the better one. Multi-engine time is total crap too. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference in whether they can make it through training, or how well they fly the airplane. Once you get an interview, and it's verified that you didn't lie about it, your time is thrown out the window.

A ton of multi-engine time may help you get an interview, MAYBE. However, the guy with the bare minimum time who had an internal recommendation will get one first. Don't have any inside connections? Create one. That's how I did it.

Originally Posted by Fly_Unity

Just like learning a language.. I remember way more words when going to Mexico for a week vs taking a year of it at school.. that's just my style of learning.. some people like Don (UPS) may be different

I have no idea why you wrote this because it has nothing to do with the differences between fast-track and slow-track. Fast-track immerses you in a fabricated, completely spoon-fed, highly focused world. It is nothing at all like the real world, and does nothing to prepare you for it. Slow-track, generally, trains you in the real world, for the real world. As much as it is possible to do so anyway.

[3enginejock]

The high horse that some people sit on these days... im glad you guys are not in charge of anything otherwise you would require everyone have 1000 solo cross country hours to be eligable to take the instrument exam, and ATP would be forced to close down.

Seriously... its a flight school get over it. Dont like it? dont go... Dont like the way they teach? dont go... nuff said. Who the hell are you to make up imaginary hours needed to make up a complete pilot. I know for fact there are pilots out there 1000s of hours who are complete idiots but somehow managed to get a job.

If you pass the written exam and the checkride you qualify and EARNED that rating whether you self rightous people on here think so or not. That is FACT. No, passing the checkride does not mean you are now god and know everything there is to know. But it means the examiner thought you were qualified enough to use that rating/cert or he would not have signed your ticket.

Of course, you should not go out and shoot approaches in full IMC down to minimums the day after you pass the instrument. No one should, not the ATP grad or the guy who spent 20 years getting his instrument rating, even if he does happen to have 1000 solo VFR cross country hours.

For all the guys thinking of going to ATP and reading the crap that posted on this forum by old school people who just hate that people can get their ratings so fast because they could not or the people that couldnt hack the fast paced program. Dont listen to this, ask current ATP students and graduates (people who actually FINISHED the program through CFI school) what they think.

Dont buy into the lies that you will be a bad pilot, you will be just as good as the next guy. A pilot who trains at an FBO is not better than an ATP pilot. The training at ATP is just as good if not better than an FBO, you will have good instructors and there are some bad instructors just like an FBO. It is fast paced but if your instructor is good he will help you when you need it. ATP will work with you even if you fail a couple checkrides as long as you give the impression that you are atleast trying. If it looks like your being lazy and not studying or missing training days for stupid reasons they will not work with you.

If you get a bad instructor, you can call ATP up and request a differant one. I know this because the first thing my instructor told me was if I did not like the way he was teaching I could ask for a new instructor if I want to.

Take this from a current ATP student...

Yes ATP is expensive, if the price bothers you then dont go. If you can afford it and are willing to spend the money to go to ATP then go for it. The training is excellent. I was not told any lies, ATP does have agreements to get you an interview with lower minimums however none of those airlines are hiring.

There is a 10 month program but it is the same price as the 90 day so Id recommend going with the 90 day IF you can hack the fast pace. You dont get the apartment with the 10 month though.

[MikeOH58]

You sound like a real pleasure to fly with....Oh how I wish you were one of my students. That would make my day.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

You sound like a real pleasure to fly with....Oh how I wish you were one of my students. That would make my day.

But we forget if you say anything negative about ATP you are the anti christ.

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

But we forget if you say anything negative about ATP you are the anti christ.

ehh whatever...No point in responding to this "3 engine" again. Nothing worse than a private pilot in training who thinks he has a job and a sense of entitlement.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

ehh whatever...No point in responding to this "3 engine" again. Nothing worse than a private pilot in training who thinks he has a job and a sense of entitlement.

Who knows bro.... its why I am hesitant to post in the ATP section. if you have anything negative to say you get someone who just started flying 90 days ago telling you that you know nothing. Or you have someone who has been up in JAX with the "big wiggs" of ATP who manipulate the regulations telling you that you know nothing. Amazing how that happens.

You know the funny part of looking back. I remember Phil saying during our time in Jax about the airlines and eating in the cockpit. "If you have a drink or food in the airlines plane and you leave #### in the cockpit you can bet you will lose your job, that's multi million dollar equipment and they dont want you making it a trash can." Basically he want ranting on how CFI's were leaving oil cans in the planes and stuff and trying to compare it to the airlines. Well I can not remember the number of times I've walked into a flight deck and had news papers all over, pop cans or water bottles. And let alone all the crums on the floors. But according to Phil that doesnt happen and you get fired for it. Oh how they are removed from the now in the 121 world.

Now I'm sure Turbomax will come on here and tell me I dont know what I'm talking about Phil never would have said such a thing. Except he wasnt there and this is one of the many BS things that came out of that guys mouth. Or the good ole you better always be on time because pilots are never late, and if you are late you'll get fired.... The times I've walked to a plane already in less then 6 months and had a CA show up late. Yup they still have their jobs and rightfully should! Oh the good ole TWA days.

[Clocks]

SteveC is just a mouthpiece for ATP to spread their regulation manipulation campaign. Probably just started flying 90 days ago.

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

ehh whatever...No point in responding to this "3 engine" again. Nothing worse than a private pilot in training who thinks he has a job and a sense of entitlement.

IMO theres nothing worse then responding to someone who has NEVER been through the WHOLE accelerated program yet they think its the worse thing on earth. Im not saying one way is better or worse. I gave over a 1000 hours dual given at both FBO's and accelerated schools and I would recommend an accelerated schools if I was to recommend one. Some instructors disagree and I seen some students that the slower pace was better, and some the faster pace was better.
It drives me nuts when people come on here and say "this isn't the best way" or "this is the best way" because "I went this way and Im a RJ pilot". Both schools have the same amount of hours!!

I know I wouldve missed out on my dream corporate job had I went to a FBO for training. Just a bit of luck on my part making 3 times as much as Regional airline pilots. But thats just me.

This argument is senseless... If its better for you to retain information learning one or two days a week, That does not mean its better for me to learn that method.

As far as ATP, I dont recommend then to anybody anybody anymore because of their price. Id do one of the other accelerated sponsors here at JC if I had to go at it again.

[SteveC]

Moderator Comment

The posts concerning logging IFR PIC were moved here: http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-cor...nt-rating.html

[Fly_Unity]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Who knows bro.... its why I am hesitant to post in the ATP section. if you have anything negative to say you get someone who just started flying 90 days ago telling you that you know nothing. ...

It dont bother me that you guys post your negative exeriance about a school... It bothers me when you guys here are saying theres only one way to go about it and ATP is as worthless as it gets. I cant stand when I see people tell me that ATP is the only way to go either. I remember when you was going through training you would post about ATP too just like these other new ATP guys are now... maybe you should read some of your post history just for fun?

[Ralgha]

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

If you pass the written exam and the checkride you qualify and EARNED that rating whether you self rightous people on here think so or not. That is FACT. No, passing the checkride does not mean you are now god and know everything there is to know. But it means the examiner thought you were qualified enough to use that rating/cert or he would not have signed your ticket.

Well, I could argue that. I know how the ATP examiners work. Yeah, you hit all the requirements of each rating, but it's hardly a test. ATP knows exactly, word for word, what each examiner looks for. It's pretty much not possible to have it handed to you on a better platter (legally).

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Of course, you should not go out and shoot approaches in full IMC down to minimums the day after you pass the instrument. No one should, not the ATP grad or the guy who spent 20 years getting his instrument rating, even if he does happen to have 1000 solo VFR cross country hours.

Why not?

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Dont buy into the lies that you will be a bad pilot, you will be just as good as the next guy. A pilot who trains at an FBO is not better than an ATP pilot. The training at ATP is just as good if not better than an FBO, you will have good instructors and there are some bad instructors just like an FBO. It is fast paced but if your instructor is good he will help you when you need it. ATP will work with you even if you fail a couple checkrides as long as you give the impression that you are atleast trying. If it looks like your being lazy and not studying or missing training days for stupid reasons they will not work with you.

The training is not just as good. Overall, the pilots I get who came the slow route do a better job than those who took the fast track. Of course there are exceptions, that's why they're called exceptions.

Originally Posted by 3enginejock

Take this from a current ATP student...

Reason for a grain of salt right there.

[tiredofshoveling]

Let me be clear, I have never and will never knock anyone for going to ATP. I am knocking the school itself. Primarily the management. It is a money making machine for them. That bubble will be coming to end. At my location they pushed people too hard particularly if you are having a hard time. The more people they wash out the more money they end up making off of them. I never read their contract, there was no point they basically can do whatever they want to you for any reason. If you look at the chief pilot cross-eyed they can kick you out. They then will issue a refund that will look something like this

40 hours of ftd @ $500 per = 20000
bunch of fees and what not = 10000

left over = 30 grand beat it

nothing to show for it

Be Careful, There are other schools out there will more sensible pay structures and individual quality instruction. After the instrument phase at ATP you basically get no more instruction.

TOS