Something to Bear in Mind Before Starting ATP

[Asta]

Which is that ATP cannot promise you a job, so don't expect to walk into an airline when you are done with your ratings. Don't even expect to get an interview, as ATP promises, in the current hiring environment. The hiring downturn is not ATP's fault, of course, though they ought to be more honest in their promotional materials, which lead you to believe they have special relationships with airlines. They don't, or if they do they are not magical relationships that will get you a job when airlines are laying people off by the hundreds. You will get your ratings fairly economically at ATP, and if that is your aim then godspeed. You will not, however, get an airline job. Reduced hiring minimums are only relevant when airlines are hiring. Expect to build time after graduation until the downturn turns around, and that is probably a good idea anyway.

[cfii2007]

Yeah...and expect to instruct for a while.

[turbomax97]

Originally Posted by Asta

Which is that ATP cannot promise you a job, so don't expect to walk into an airline when you are done with your ratings. Don't even expect to get an interview, as ATP promises, in the current hiring environment. The hiring downturn is not ATP's fault, of course, though they ought to be more honest in their promotional materials, which lead you to believe they have special relationships with airlines. They don't, or if they do they are not magical relationships that will get you a job when airlines are laying people off by the hundreds. You will get your ratings fairly economically at ATP, and if that is your aim then godspeed. You will not, however, get an airline job. Reduced hiring minimums are only relevant when airlines are hiring. Expect to build time after graduation until the downturn turns around, and that is probably a good idea anyway.

Actually they do have special relationships with the airlines. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the higher ups go out on a limb to get guys interviews even when they weren't actively hiring or competitive with the pool of applicants available to the airlines at the time.

Other than that - you are correct - but anyone who has common sense would know that hiring is going to slow/ come to a halt, unless they live in a bubble.

[Kleigh]

I couldnt agree more with Turbomax. Anybody who thinks the "higher ups" are just after the money have very little information or experience with said "higher ups." I was in a meeting today at a training center where one of them said we were going to instruct for quite some time and it was better for us and better for ATP and flight instruction as an ideal, but they were still pulling for us to all get hired as soon as possible. I am looking forward to it, actually. And I will say this, when the hiring begins again (and it will) I think that an ATP instructor is going to be on top of the list with more multi, the RJ course which will be free, and probably their ATP ratings.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Kleigh

And I will say this, when the hiring begins again (and it will) I think that an ATP instructor is going to be on top of the list with more multi, the RJ course which will be free, and probably their ATP ratings.

After the thousands of furloughed 121 pilots, you might be right. All the furloughed pilots will either: 1. Be recalled before anyone even glances at your application. 2: Be applying at the few places still hiring/first places to start hiring.

CFI'ing at ATP isn't wasted time. Just be realistic. If I was in your shoes I'd stay as a CFI too. It's going to be a while, buckle down and enjoy your time.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

I can't tell you how many times I've seen the higher ups go out on a limb to get guys interviews.

The point is to get a job not an interview, and ATP is not even getting us our "guaranteed interviews"--pointless though they would be in this market. Again, I'm not blaming ATP for the furloughs, obviously, but only want to give a head's up to the guys thinking about starting the program.

[Lead Sled]

I’ve been wondering how long they can keep those lowered minimums agreements with all those regionals. I’ve heard a lot of speculation that mins will go way up next time the industry picks up. I have absolutely no idea what’s going to happen but it seems like a start up like me will be looking at two or three years instead of just 7 months to get in somewhere. But hey, if you're gonna be broke anyway what's an extra couple years of it and more valuable time as an instructor?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

Actually they do have special relationships with the airlines. I can't tell you how many times I've seen the higher ups go out on a limb to get guys interviews even when they weren't actively hiring or competitive with the pool of applicants available to the airlines at the time.

Other than that - you are correct - but anyone who has common sense would know that hiring is going to slow/ come to a halt, unless they live in a bubble.

If you really believe they have "special" relationships with airlines you are out side of your mind. They have agreements. Agreements that any major flight academy and or University has. They do not have anything over anyone else. Those agreements are only worth what you make of it and what you have on your resume. If you have no connections, no personality, no skill, etc you will land no where. As you can and already know just because you get hired means nothing. Where are those Comair guys going that got hired? Oh or the AE guys? Oh or better yet what about the PSA/Pinnacle/ExpressJet guys? Oh yeah most are getting A furloughed if at the airline and or B not getting called anytime soon.

And as CLocks has already put it out there ATP instructors are no better off then anyone else. You now have thousands of 121 qualified pilots you are going against. You have guys with SIC's in Jets and have already completed 121 training before. You are going against guys who have connections that are personal with many who are at places that are still hiring. I might add with the way the training has gone over the past year many airlines realize ME doesnt matter. The applicant will either pick up and do well in training or wont. It doesnt matter what their ME time is. Hell minus a V1 cut a jet doesnt fly anything close like a seminole engine out etc. I dont know. I just really think you all need to realize ATP is only doing what other places do. They have nothing any more special then a DCA/Ariben etc indeed have.

[Kalikiano]

If Instructing will be the way to go for a little while how many hours a month do most ATP instructors log?

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Kalikiano

If Instructing will be the way to go for a little while how many hours a month do most ATP instructors log?

I was at a medium sized location (RIC) not doing anything special to pick up hours and averaged 75ish a month.

[Lead Sled]

sorry to hear about your current "location"

[turbomax97]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

If you really believe they have "special" relationships with airlines you are out side of your mind. They have agreements. Agreements that any major flight academy and or University has. They do not have anything over anyone else. Those agreements are only worth what you make of it and what you have on your resume. If you have no connections, no personality, no skill, etc you will land no where. As you can and already know just because you get hired means nothing. Where are those Comair guys going that got hired? Oh or the AE guys? Oh or better yet what about the PSA/Pinnacle/ExpressJet guys? Oh yeah most are getting A furloughed if at the airline and or B not getting called anytime soon.

And as CLocks has already put it out there ATP instructors are no better off then anyone else. You now have thousands of 121 qualified pilots you are going against. You have guys with SIC's in Jets and have already completed 121 training before. You are going against guys who have connections that are personal with many who are at places that are still hiring. I might add with the way the training has gone over the past year many airlines realize ME doesnt matter. The applicant will either pick up and do well in training or wont. It doesnt matter what their ME time is. Hell minus a V1 cut a jet doesnt fly anything close like a seminole engine out etc. I dont know. I just really think you all need to realize ATP is only doing what other places do. They have nothing any more special then a DCA/Ariben etc indeed have.

Yikes, didn't mean to hit a sore spot there! haha.

I know you had a not so great experience and all, but I spent a lot more time than you at ATP as an instructor, and got to see another side of ATP that you didn't. At the end of the day - I personally know plenty of people that the higher ups bent over BACKWARDS to help out when they were called upon. I'm sorry you didn't get to see that.

As for the second part of your post, I suppose it's general ranting and not directed at me? It's irrelevant that being "hired" means nothing. Trust me, I know this is true - I lost my job before it even really started at the regional I was hired at leaving me jobless. Keep in mind the agreements give ya an interview, not a job - just like you said, the resume, personality etc etc are what get you the job (albeit since no one is hiring anymore its a moot point).

[kfour]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

I know you had a not so great experience and all, but I spent a lot more time than you at ATP as an instructor, and got to see another side of ATP that you didn't. At the end of the day - I personally know plenty of people that the higher ups bent over BACKWARDS to help out when they were called upon. I'm sorry you didn't get to see that.

Agreed.

[FlyingPoke]

I think anyone with a brain can figure out nobody is going anywhere for a while and to get comfortable where you are.

I'm considering instructing at ATP - not because they have some special hookup with airlines, but because of the high total/multi time available and cost of living... the free jet course wont hurt either. The more flight time youre getting the better, afterall its not like all the other instructors out there have just stopped flying... gotta stay competitive (at least after the furloughs get called back anyway).

[Lead Sled]

Originally Posted by FlyingPoke

I think anyone with a brain can figure out nobody is going anywhere for a while and to get comfortable where you are.

I'm considering instructing at ATP - not because they have some special hookup with airlines, but because of the high total/multi time available and cost of living... the free jet course wont hurt either. The more flight time youre getting the better, afterall its not like all the other instructors out there have just stopped flying... gotta stay competitive (at least after the furloughs get called back anyway).

Not to mention, Oklahoma State rules!

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

Yikes, didn't mean to hit a sore spot there! haha.

I know you had a not so great experience and all, but I spent a lot more time than you at ATP as an instructor, and got to see another side of ATP that you didn't. At the end of the day - I personally know plenty of people that the higher ups bent over BACKWARDS to help out when they were called upon. I'm sorry you didn't get to see that.

Well glad you know my story. If you want to hear it lets pm... Because until then your general assumtption just made the A** out of you and me. But way to go buddy. Secondly if you believe they will go out of their way to get you HIRED you are insane again. In general what was said is what ATP offers is nothing SPECIAL. Ariben, DCA, UND, Purdue and many other places offer the same thing. But perhaps you are blinded by only training at ATP. I might add I spent a lot of time at FBO's across Indiana and other flight training places and know what QUALITY is like. That's all. What you learn in 90 days as opposed to a year is amazing. Some places IMO are better as far as QUALITY go and thus what I keep saying on here. You get what you pay for when you want to get it done in 90 days. Goes down to basicaly psychology (majored in that) and if you want to debate that again hit me in a PM. I'd be glad to let you know how the brain can only process a certain amount of information and how that works. But you are right its a beef and not a fact of the matter that I know from studies and undergrad that the general, "stuff your brain with info" approach only works so well. Its all.

Originally Posted by turbomax97

As for the second part of your post, I suppose it's general ranting and not directed at me? It's irrelevant that being "hired" means nothing. Trust me, I know this is true - I lost my job before it even really started at the regional I was hired at leaving me jobless. Keep in mind the agreements give ya an interview, not a job - just like you said, the resume, personality etc etc are what get you the job (albeit since no one is hiring anymore its a moot point).

You are right you did find out. It sucks. But its the beast of the industry. Also its meant in general. Right now it doesnt really matter. You tried to make it sound like ATP has some sort of special connections and with the times as they are now they still have them. Well if you are posting that on here you are absolutely incorrect and should not be saying such. They have GENERAL agreements and that's it. It means nothing. Especially when you have over 500 furloughed from xjet, 27 from PSA, 45 from TSA and many more who are out there who have been let go from Bankrupt carriers. How is ATP making their grads more marketable then them? Oh that's right they cant especially with the industry at the current state now can they?

[FlyingPoke]

Originally Posted by Lead Sled

Not to mention, Oklahoma State rules!

... I like this guy!

To add something to the converstion... it should be noted that ATP is offering the 'refund' now for the jet course as they know nobody will be interviewing for a while with any airline. So, dont expect some kind of special treatment... back to earning it like the good 'ol days I suppose

[turbomax97]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Well glad you know my story. If you want to hear it lets pm... Because until then your general assumtption just made the A** out of you and me. But way to go buddy.

How did it make an ass out of you and me? I'm confused. If I did I apologize.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Secondly if you believe they will go out of their way to get you HIRED you are insane again.

Insane? No, saw it with my own eyes. I didn't say that everyone leaves the program with the same taste however. I know people that had a rough time dealing with issues as well.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

In general what was said is what ATP offers is nothing SPECIAL. Ariben, DCA, UND, Purdue and many other places offer the same thing.

Fair enough. I don't feel cheated though - I went into it knowing what I was getting, and I got just that, nothing more. Sure the industry blows right now and that doing a fast paced program got me nowhere, but hindsight is 20/20. Also, doing it any slower wouldn't have made much of a difference on my situation either.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

But perhaps you are blinded by only training at ATP. I might add I spent a lot of time at FBO's across Indiana and other flight training places and know what QUALITY is like. That's all.

I didn't only train/ give training at ATP. I'm primarily a free-lance instructor, and at the end of the day - you can find SOMETHING wrong with every flight school, fbo, and CFI if you strain your eyes hard enough. I've said this before, and I firmly believe it; the training you receive LARGELY depends on your immediate instructor, not really ATP so much. I had damn good instructors for certain phases, and guys who scared the crap outta me for others. I suspect this would be the case at most flight schools, albeit fast paced or not - cfi's are at the bottem of the aviation totem pole, and the result is lack of experience and knowledge.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

What you learn in 90 days as opposed to a year is amazing. Some places IMO are better as far as QUALITY go and thus what I keep saying on here.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

You get what you pay for when you want to get it done in 90 days. Goes down to basicaly psychology (majored in that) and if you want to debate that again hit me in a PM.

I double degreed in Bio/ Neuroscience so there's not much to debate on the psych side, we're in agreement for the most part. One common theory of learning from the biological/ neuroscience school of thought is that it's not just the idea you're learning, but the environment in which you are learning it, that matters just as much as the original idea - if that makes sense. Simple facts decrease cerebral activity, vs. immersion in the topic stimulates both cerebral hemispheres. That being said - there are WAY too many variables here that you and I could write a book on, comparing say ATP and the badass school in Indiana you were talking about. Oh and btw - can you pm me the name of the school? A good friend of mine may be flying soon. Thanks.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

I'd be glad to let you know how the brain can only process a certain amount of information and how that works. But you are right its a beef and not a fact of the matter that I know from studies and undergrad that the general, "stuff your brain with info" approach only works so well. Its all.

See above.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

You are right you did find out. It sucks. But its the beast of the industry. Also its meant in general. Right now it doesnt really matter. You tried to make it sound like ATP has some sort of special connections and with the times as they are now they still have them. Well if you are posting that on here you are absolutely incorrect and should not be saying such. They have GENERAL agreements and that's it. It means nothing. Especially when you have over 500 furloughed from xjet, 27 from PSA, 45 from TSA and many more who are out there who have been let go from Bankrupt carriers. How is ATP making their grads more marketable then them? Oh that's right they cant especially with the industry at the current state now can they?

They do have close relationships with the HR departments at these airlines, but as we are all in agreement with(and that common sense dictates) it doesn't matter if they're not hiring. The close relationships aren't something I'm telling anyone to rely on to get a job - it's simply a fact. For the regular Joe Schmoe- he's getting the letters of agreement, and that's it.

I'm going to sleep now, tired of job hunting for the night.

[LoadMasterC141]

Moved

[777forever]

Nothing wrong with instructing right now. Bear in mind that the airlines are not the only way to. The airlines might not be hiring but hundreds of freight and corporate companies are.

I know several ATP instructors that got hired on at nice corporate gigs. Go instruct, build time up to the 1200-1500hr range and you should see the opportunities rolling in. I know Turbo built a lot of time at ATP and he'll already picked up a 135 job offer.

It is possible to get to a major without go to a regional fellas. Its also possible to be at a major without it being a airline (Netjets). Lots of opportunities still available. Just think outside the airline box.

[turbomax97]

You are absolutely right. The freight guys are hurting still. I've had 3 interviews in the last 2 days for freight. The corporate guys - not so much, and same goes for cfi'ing. I think a lot of it has to do with no movement up from the CFI ranks, and whatever spots are left are accounted for with guys coming back from their lost airline job.

Dallas in general is a pretty tough market to break into, but I'm giving it all I got.... need to eat once in a while!

[777forever]

The CFI market see little movement right now because most are relatively low time CFIs. I know alot of them are discouraged they won't be at an airline after 3 months of CFIing but they'll get over it, build time and move on. They might even leapfrog some of us at the regionals in terms of building time because there's going to be alot of pilots at the regionals on reserve for quite a while.

[L-16B]

Originally Posted by Kleigh

I couldnt agree more with Turbomax. Anybody who thinks the "higher ups" are just after the money have very little information or experience with said "higher ups." I was in a meeting today at a training center where one of them said we were going to instruct for quite some time and it was better for us and better for ATP and flight instruction as an ideal, but they were still pulling for us to all get hired as soon as possible. I am looking forward to it, actually. And I will say this, when the hiring begins again (and it will) I think that an ATP instructor is going to be on top of the list with more multi, the RJ course which will be free, and probably their ATP ratings.

Over a guy that was furloughed or on the street with thousands of hours of turbine time? Over an ATP instructor? What flavor koolaid? Strawberry?

[Asta]

I wonder what form this guarantee takes, since I haven't gotten a single interview nor has anyone in my class except one guy with an Eagle hook. Perhaps turbomax can get someone at JAX to go out on that well travelled limb and hook me up.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/attachm...1&d=1215813498

[SoonerAv8r]

BOOMER SOONER

Silly boys.....Real men wear Crimson!!!

Originally Posted by Lead Sled

Not to mention, Oklahoma State rules!