PPL Through a Local FBO?

[JeffMSU]

I am looking into attending ATP starting in April/May of 2009 because I graduate from MSU in December and have an apartment lease that runs till the beginning of May. I am trying to use my time and money wisely so I am thinking of getting my PPL and my 85 hour requirement at a local FBO so i can enter into ATP's program. I would be doing this between August and April in Michigan so i am a little concerned about the time constraint with the unpredicability of a Michigan winter. Any thoughts on getting my PPL during this time span or should I wait to do everything at ATP?

Also, since there is not a huge selection of FBO around Lansing, what are important things i should look for or questions to ask the few FBOs that we do have in my area? Thanks for any thoughts or comments you may have!

Jeff

[3enginejock]

The price is going up. by May of next year it may not be worth it anymore, hell its not really worth it now. I paid 54k 2 months ago. Its over 60k now for the Airline Career Pilot Program and its going to go up again soon I heard.

Id wait and see what the price is like in 2009 before you make any commitments.

[JeffMSU]

I am not talking about making a commitment to ATP for April/May right now. The price at all flight schools will go up in the coming months because of what oil has done and will do for some time to come. If ATP and every other school does not raise their prices by years end, I would be very very surprised.

I am just looking into the option of getting my PPL and hours at a FBO in Michigan between August and April and wondering if this a good/feasible option.

[adreamer]

Well, it will be more easiler for you if you can get your PPL and instrument done while you stay at East Lansing. The whole idea is get it done as cheap as possible. At current industry environment, you can take your times for training.

You can come to AZO for training. It is about an hour drive.

[fletchersteel]

I did my PPL and time build at my local FBO. I am not too confident that the price that we paid, and will be paying for a long time, was worth all the trouble. Met a lot of great people, but the program seemed very rushed. I could have saved a bunch of doe by staying at home. The key to the FBO is finding an instructor that you can work with. As you have probably already heard, "ATP is not for everyone". Well, I think that something should be added to that: "At times it is and at times it is not".

[bpowell]

I would do all of your training at a local FBO. It'll take longer, it'll be cheaper and noone's hiring right now anyway.... Don't spend 70k to go make 24k (if that). I work for a regional, I like it and I got there only owing 25k with a degree.... Don't pay for multi time! Get 1200 hours and go work for Flight Express for about a year. Get paid to fly multi, it's great experience. I did all of my training at www.dutchwingsflightschool.com and then www.flightexpress.com .

good luck!

[yoman793]

bpowell is right on. im currently doing all my training at my local fbo. www.fly-eagle.com
i might have done a fast paced school like atp if the industry was still booming like it was a few months ago, but it isnt and i had to adjust. i hope to do exactly as bpowell did. im going through the ratings cheaper and plan to instruct till i get 135 mins and move on to flightexpress and hopefully fly their barons. this way i'll be hireable by the airlines or a corportae operation without a 60k loan to pay back and maybe only 30k worth of debt.

[Kalikiano]

I dont know how many classes your taking but I was working on my PPL while taking 18 credits in college and it really took a toll on my school work and flight training. I would have to stop flying here and there for a week or so when a big paper was due or to study for exams etc.. I was flying at a 141 and they felt expensive especially when I found out other schools were renting 172s for 95/hour I was paying $125/hour plus 50/hour for instructor. This was also back in 2007 might be more now.

[yoman793]

wow thats way to much! where were you flying at? our c-172 is $92 an hour and instructor is only $30. im taking 12 credits at FSU and flying at a part 61 school. it doesnt really get in the way too much. lots of long nights studying though.

[Kalikiano]

http://www.horizonflightcenter.com/rental_rates.htm
this is in Chesapeake va near Va Beach.

[tapcon]

Hard to believe that I paid only $33k for the ACPP. My advice would be to get you private and instrument (and, if possible, the rest of your ratings) at a local FBO. Focus on school and enjoy your time in college. You have the rest of your life to fly. Your young enough that you can take your time, which in turn will save you money. Hiring is going back down, so there's no need to rush into the bottom of a deep pilot pool. Enjoy your time instructing or towing banners, or if your lucky enough, getting a right seat 91 gig. Keep one thing in mind...once you start flying 121, the enjoyment factor of flying goes WAY down. Just my 2ct

[loubetti]

Originally Posted by tapcon

Hard to believe that I paid only $33k for the ACPP. My advice would be to get you private and instrument (and, if possible, the rest of your ratings) at a local FBO. Focus on school and enjoy your time in college. You have the rest of your life to fly. Your young enough that you can take your time, which in turn will save you money. Hiring is going back down, so there's no need to rush into the bottom of a deep pilot pool. Enjoy your time instructing or towing banners, or if your lucky enough, getting a right seat 91 gig. Keep one thing in mind...once you start flying 121, the enjoyment factor of flying goes WAY down. Just my 2ct

I cannot disagree with what "tapcon" said above.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[DL31082]

At this point in time I would say go the FBO route. There is much point in spending 60k to get your ratings in 3 months, get done and not be able to get a job. Its hard enough right now to find a CFI job let alone an airline job, plus ATP is even slowing down there hiring. Now the one thing about ATP that makes it a lot of fun is the people you get to be around the 75hrs of multi-engine x-country time. Whatever you do have fun!!!

[meyers9163]

WOW it makes me very happy to see the above posters, our Junior members, really know what they are talking about... all the above are dead on and the smile on my face is huge.... no point in going to ATP..... FBO is the way to go. Cheaper, your pace, and you can do it now.....

[DL31082]

Meyers- Why do you dislike ATP so much? I mean I'm not a huge fan of the company and right now I wouldn't recommend going that route due to the status of the industry, but they aren't all bad. I was just curious.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by DL31082

Meyers- Why do you dislike ATP so much? I mean I'm not a huge fan of the company and right now I wouldn't recommend going that route due to the status of the industry, but they aren't all bad. I was just curious.

Subpar product.... only can learn so much in 90 days.... fact of the matter is by rushing through you miss out on a lot of things. Basic educaton psychology. The brain can only process so much information. I've viewed and experienced better pilots and instructors from other schools. The ones i've encountered from ATP have not been impressive in my experience. However the arguement back is so are others from different schools. True but how much can one learn in 90 days..... DL31082 you had a good post back... keep it that away. You seem to know as to why you recommend this guy to do the FBO. Many of the same reasons.

Also hell how much money is ATP right now? 60k.... simply not worth it once so ever.

[DL31082]

Meyers- I am not going back on my pervious post. Right now I do not believe that the ATP or any other "fast track" route is the way to go at the moment. As I said it doesn't make sense with the industry the way it is. That being said I somewhat disagree with the sub-par statement. Just like with any school the quality of the students that leave ATP depend on 2 things. 1. The instructor. I have seen instructors that really work with the students both on the ground and in the air. Then you have the instructors that fly with a student and ignore them to study on their own all day. 2. The student themselves. If you really study and work hard you can come out as a great pilot. If you don't then you won't and I have seen more then enough people do the bare minimum to pass the check-ride.

That being said I am somewhat biased I did go through the program and never busted a check-ride. I had a great instructor and when I wasn't with him I was studying. I agree that the price is high (kinda feel stupid about paying that now) but I have 140 multi hours compared to the 20 that someone that I work with has. But anyways I have been rambling on. I just wanted to know if you had a bad personal experience with them or if it was something else. Thanks.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by DL31082

I just wanted to know if you had a bad personal experience with them or if it was something else. Thanks.

Just think their are a lot better options out there..... And have no problem discussing those options with prospective students who rather get all their ratings for 30k instead of 70k that they'd spend at ATP. In addition if they want to spend 40k get them 100ME as well. In the end there are better options IMO. The state of the industry should not matter. The training itself is what one should consider. If you are going to go into this industry the state should not be a reason as to why to go to ATP or not to go to ATP.

[insidious]

pardon me for jumping in here and going off topic but... lol... meyers, what the crap does "once so ever" mean??

who taught you that?

there's a word that i think you meant to use instead.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by insidious

pardon me for jumping in here and going off topic but... lol... meyers, what the crap does "once so ever" mean??

who taught you that?

there's a word that i think you meant to use instead.

Nope.... meant what I typed... its an older quote. But great productive post?

[FD4life]

Quote:
Get 1200 hours and go work for Flight Express for about a year. Get paid to fly multi, it's great experience.


I agree with everyone else about getting the liscense at a local FBO. If you can, hang out at the airport before and after your lessons and get to know the local pilots, especially the old guys who've been flying a long time. Just hang out and talk with those guys, and you'll learn just as much as you will during your lessons. Correct my if i'm wrong, but don't you have to fly the 210 at Flight Express before you get enough senority to even start flying the baron? If so, Airnet is an excellent choice to fly for. They even have the SIC program for people with less than 135 mins.

[PDT565]

"Subpar product"??

Let's think about that. People who go to ATP finish with the same pieces of plastic (ratings) that anyone form an FBO gets. Unlike other employers, airlines don't ask, "where did you get your degree? Harvard or State College?". The FAA grants these ratings through merrit of your check ride. The examiner does not care where you went for your training. The standard is set by the FAA per the PTS, not by Mr. Meyers. ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important. Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.


The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly. ATP is for motivated people. I've seen students who used to "dig ditches" for a living succeed incredibly at ATP for the one reason that they were well motivated.

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by PDT565

ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important.

Funny.... many of the locations teach what they know the examiner will test on and not even all of what the PTS requires. I got in trouble more then once for teaching too much and using too much time on issues. Funny thing is when I taught a student how to do a turn around a point I got, "Our DPE wont do that on the checkride for for future privates dont do that." Hmm Interesting. Well in order for me to sign her off for her checkride I must say I gave in training in that and if I didnt I will not sign her off. One of many issues I can point on. Point taken I rest assure.

Originally Posted by PDT565

Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.

Two parts here. What do you call Pete there in Daytona Beach? Last time I checked hes the manager of ATP in DAB. He also is a DPE. Wonder if he has any pressure to pass students. Also ATP states during Indoc if you have any issues with the DPE's let them know and they will, "take care of them." Simply saying you do it our way, in our plane and you will get students or you dont and you wont. Thus ATP has their examiners that will do it a certain way and know their "taining."
Secondly I had a student whom could not afford to take his last checkride. He requested to take his CSEL/CFI Single with the FSDO. The manager and Jim refused to let him do so. They told him either he does it with a DPE or no one at all. If you want to debate it I will give you his name and cell and you can call him yourself. Lastly the FSDO is ONLY used if the student is going for their initial and only then if the FSDO can fit it in to their schedules. Other then that they are all DPE's. Lastly the only two DPE's in my time I saw who were not pressured by ATP were Erinie and Walt. Both of whom have more respect with the FAA then ATP and thus if ATP were to try to screw either of them, they'd end up screwing themselves.

Originally Posted by PDT565

The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly.

You want to take on a psychology major and others on this forum who have neruoscience degrees (masters and doctorates) about how the brain works and how much is truely can process? I dont think I even want to waste my breath going there. Search on google cognitive psychology and also brain/behavior psychology and let me know what you learn about the brain and how much it truely can retain. There's a reason doctors and others dont get their degree in 90 days. Wild thought I know.

Originally Posted by PDT565

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

Actually by going to the FBO route I was able to get my degree. I am in a position with my furlough to indeed have a job that pays me 60k and it will be up to me if I want to go back. I have job security and it lined up. However just a little FYI about Jetcareers and mods please look into this. We are not a trashy website. To point out about somones furlough and job loss is a very trashy move. Really not a class act and I hope to see better out of you in the future. Furloughs in this career happen. There are pleanty of people who are getting let go who went to ATP. So that point is rather irrelevant and just shows your lack of class. In addition I have about 28k in debt. Thank god I dont have 80k just in flight loans and without a job as many are whom went to ATP and other programs. I'll take my route any day of the week. To each their own.

Lastly this industry has a funny way of being small. The brides you burn now will not be there later to help you cross the many obstacles you may face in this industry. Perhaps you are at PDT now and that's great. However things happen quick and rather rapid in this industry. I really would wish you nothing but the best with your future and if you are in 121 your job. However as great as things were at my company 6 months ago they turn quick. My company today, it could be yours tomorrow. With that I hope its not but its the way of the world. Just ask you to keep that in mind. Again hind sight in 20/20 and after you re read your own post perhaps you will see that some of your points, mostly the last paragraph was off centered and classless.

[MQAAord]

Originally Posted by PDT565

"Subpar product"??

Let's think about that. People who go to ATP finish with the same pieces of plastic (ratings) that anyone form an FBO gets. Unlike other employers, airlines don't ask, "where did you get your degree? Harvard or State College?". The FAA grants these ratings through merrit of your check ride. The examiner does not care where you went for your training. The standard is set by the FAA per the PTS, not by Mr. Meyers. ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important. Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.


The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly. ATP is for motivated people. I've seen students who used to "dig ditches" for a living succeed incredibly at ATP for the one reason that they were well motivated.

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

And by that same logic, FBO students finish with the same piece of plastic (paper, when I got mine) that a ATP student finishes with. So that doesn't make the ATP person any better than the FBO person. (or vice versa.....)

I know you're new here, but let's not make posts like that "personal" by telling someone they'd have the senority to not get furloughed if they'd done XYZ program..... You do NOT know that for sure, and it's not a fair or accurate thing to say.

Personally, I do not get into the FBO vs. Pilot Mill vs. Collegiate Aviation argument. I have an aviation degree (worthless for several reasons yet I'm still not regretful that I did it), I did my PPL at an FBO, but I did it in 4 weeks like a pilot mill......... Either way the individual gets the same rating as anyone else.

[DL31082]

Just for the record I went through ATP's indoc program to and yes they do say that if a DPE has a problem with one of the policies that ATP has then they will stop using them. They did not however say that if they are busting to many students that they would dump them. If a DPE breaks an ATP policy like killing the engine with the mixture below 3000ft agl then they will stop using the DPE. The 3 DPE's that we used in ATL were Cylde Shelton, Joey Sanders and Bob Howell. I gaurentee that they none of them have ever passed someone that did not deserve to be passed. ATP does not do things outside of the PTS which is the guide book for checkrides.