Question for Instructors and Students

[moose]

So now that the airline industry has officially fallen into a crap chute what is ATP promising its employees and students? where are you guys planning on going after the program? Do they still do the onsite interviews? I hope most of you have been reading the official airline crew newspaper (USA Today) and have formed an opinion on what is going on in the industry. I guess i'm a little curious to know how ATP is taking all the crap that is going on and what they offer in terms of securing an airline job.

Word of advice, do your research, don't settle for poor quality of life and a ##### pay rate because you want to fly a shiny jet, you WILL regret it.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by moose

So now that the airline industry has officially fallen into a crap chute what is ATP promising its employees and students? where are you guys planning on going after the program? Do they still do the onsite interviews? I hope most of you have been reading the official airline crew newspaper (USA Today) and have formed an opinion on what is going on in the industry. I guess i'm a little curious to know how ATP is taking all the crap that is going on and what they offer in terms of securing an airline job.

I'd recommend a quick phone call to ATP to find that out. I'm sure they will be willing to discuss that with you.

Originally Posted by moose

Word of advice, do your research...

Roger that!

Bob

[moose]

i'm not looking to sign up... i recently received the same blast mail you probably have and being an atp alumni I was wondering how, now that the regional industry is in worse shape than it was 2 years ago when I made the jump, atp has managed to do as far as putting folks where they want to be... curious to know how many folks attending these days have back up plans that is all

[DE727UPS]

"I'd recommend a quick phone call to ATP to find that out."

Well, Capt Bob, I'd take what ATP says with a grain of salt. What do you expect an ATP recruiter to say "Yeah....ummm....half our guaratneed agreement airlines may furlough soon, but, yeah....ATP is the way to go. Don't worry about that loan payment"

Holy cow. If one is looking at hiring agreements as a reason to train at a certain school, in this day and age, I'd say it would be smart to look waaaaay beyond that.


Capt Bob, do you really expect ATP to give an honest assessment of the industry when you call their 800 number and ask for advice?

People need to look beyond the ATP recruiters if they want an honest opinion of what's up in the biz. JC is a great start.

[moose]

I happen to agree with you DE727UPS. I'm not concerned with what ATP will try to sell to new students but whether or not these new guys have been keeping up with whats going on. Has ATP addressed the issues of perhaps not having a job 2 months after being hired? Have ACPP students thought about a back up? Is ATP still doing on sight interviews?

I know sure as heck they helped me get a few interviews but with hundreds of qualified pilots flooding the unemployment line, myself included in a few months... i'm a little concerned about people spending almost 80k for a program like this without any thought of what they will do when they can't get an interview nevermind a hire date. This isn't an ATP thing... i just happen to attend ATP so figured i'd ask it here. Maybe its not my place to worry about this but i'm curious to know what schools like ATP and the individuals themselves are doing to prepare themselves for a possibility of not finding a job at the end of the program.

[meyers9163]

Keep in mind Eric P is a sales minded person! Very great guy but he will sell ya the damn sky if you would let him...... I'm sure they are saying the normal stuff! But again if people are going to ATP for agreements perhaps they are going to ATp for the wrong reasons in the 1st place...

[moose]

Ya no kidding... I wouldn't be surprised if majority of those who attend sign up because of the agreements. C'mon a jet job within 8 months... sounds pretty cool to me! Anywho, still looking for an answer. Didn't think this was such a personal question.

EDIT* Plus those agreements are a big part of ATPs marketing and I was curious if the possibility of not finding a job is ever mentioned during "indoc."

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Capt Bob, do you really expect ATP to give an honest assessment of the industry when you call their 800 number and ask for advice?

People need to look beyond the ATP recruiters if they want an honest opinion of what's up in the biz. JC is a great start.

I don't recall Moose asking for industry advice... it appeared (and re-reading his post it still does) that he was asking what ATP is doing about the current state of the industry in regards to what they are telling future prospects.

Well... I'll say it again... call them up.

Originally Posted by moose

I happen to agree with you DE727UPS. I'm not concerned with what ATP will try to sell to new students but whether or not these new guys have been keeping up with whats going on. Has ATP addressed the issues of perhaps not having a job 2 months after being hired? Have ACPP students thought about a back up? Is ATP still doing on sight interviews?

I'm seeing it again... and although you say you agree with DE... (as do I... a flight school recruiter is no place to go get insight into the economic stature of the industry), you are still asking questions that ATP recruiters CAN or should be able to answer.

For that matter... they are questions that any school schould be able to answer if they have agreements.

The industry is in a lull right now... heck I'm being directly affected myself. That said... there are still Regionals out there that are hiring. Many of whom still have agreements with flight schools.

Just because one airline furloughs or goes out of business... doesn't mean that another isn't hiring. Case in point... SkyWest wants to reduce our pilot force by anywhere from 300-600... and yet... they will offer "preferrential interviews" to our furloughees due to their planned growth!

It sucks... but... it's reality.

Yes... at JC you can get smacked with the reality of the industry in no time flat. But... if you honestly want to know what a flight school is currently planning on doing about their agreements, on-site interviews, interview prep, or how they are taking all the "crap that is going on"... then... give 'em a ring.

Originally Posted by moose

Didn't think this was such a personal question.

They aren't personal questions... that's the thing. (although it's being made out to be "personal" on here).

Originally Posted by moose

Anywho, still looking for an answer.

It's a phone call away.

Bob

[meyers9163]

It is a call away you are right Bob. However I would also say to whoever answers the phone how do you expect your grads to even come close and compete with those who are former 121 guys who are furloughed? The Skyway, Skybus, perhaps Xjet guys...... If I were a carrier I'd take the former 121 guys over any CFI anyday!

Be an interesting question to hear the inflection in their voice.

[moose]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

I'm seeing it again... and although you say you agree with DE... (as do I... a flight school recruiter is no place to go get insight into the economic stature of the industry), you are still asking questions that ATP recruiters CAN or should be able to answer.

For that matter... they are questions that any school schould be able to answer if they have agreements.

I'm not looking for a sales pitch and I just know I will get one.
I don't know if you were employed with ATP, if you were then you are familiar with how the phones are handled in the pit and to be honest I don't see my question being answered a la phone call.

I had and continue to have no problem discussing what my plans are should I get furloughed. I just hope those who are going through the program have given this some thought early before getting tied into a huge loan and whether or not ATP, as well as other schools who are well known for delivering pilots to regional gigs, have taken on the responsibility of keeping these kids informed.

[Captain_Bob]

Alrighty...

I think I'm getting it now Moose...

You aren't really interested in the answer to the questions... but rather... you are simply wanting folks to be well advised what the state of the industry is before they just "jump right in"... as well as be wary of what any flight school will "tell or promise you" just to "get your money".

Is that what you are really getting at? It seems that way... and if that's the case... then I completely agree.

Bob

[moose]

Ya, I think you just made me realize that thats what I'm looking for although I would like to get a response just to know, but I tell ya what Bob... if what is being thrown around the building is true with the latest news we got recently, I'm well inside that number to go so it just makes me a little nervous and I truly hope these ATP'ers have something to back them selves up with.

I'll give them a jingle tomorrow see if i can get an answer

[Captain_Bob]

Didn't know you were a part of the team...

Are you LAX or ONT? (Just assuming based on your location being OC).

Bob

[moose]

Unfortunately EWR. A long story short... I found me a wife on the east coast and got trapped.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by moose

Unfortunately EWR. A long story short... I found me a wife on the east coast and got trapped. How about yourself?

damn women! hahaha

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by moose

Ya, I think you just made me realize that thats what I'm looking for although I would like to get a response just to know, but I tell ya what Bob... if what is being thrown around the building is true with the latest news we got recently, I'm well inside that number to go so it just makes me a little nervous and I truly hope these ATP'ers have something to back them selves up with.

I'll give them a jingle tomorrow see if i can get an answer

Unfortunately a lot of people at ATP do not have back ups. Many high school grads without any secondary education. In addition some with college educations looking for a fast track who have given up their previous jobs (good and bad). However now they have that 80k loan to pay off. So what are their choices? They could stick it around ATP and guarantee themselves 24k while flying instructing (24k without any taxes taken out), go back and try to get their previous jobs back, or apply with the many more qualified 121 pilots for the same regional jobs..... None of which sound all that appealing, unless the old job was one hell of a paying job. 80k I have no clue wht a payment on that would be, more then 600 and upwards of what 900 a month to 1000 a month? That's more then my parents mortgage.

[moose]

Ya I don't know what the terms are on the loan but 80k would be right around 900/month. I'm a little concerned that nobody else chimed in to atleast say "ya i'm a little worried about my investment." Makes me believe that not many have thought about the current state of the industry.

I feel for any married guys and gals that have a mortgage to pay on top of this loan. Best of luck to ya.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by moose

Ya I don't know what the terms are on the loan but 80k would be right around 900/month. I'm a little concerned that nobody else chimed in to atleast say "ya i'm a little worried about my investment." Makes me believe that not many have thought about the current state of the industry.

I feel for any married guys and gals that have a mortgage to pay on top of this loan. Best of luck to ya.

Yeah.... I dont think some think about the amount of the loan they take out. I had a few students when I told them I only paid 30k for my flight training and 50k for my college and flight together they always give me a weird look. Then I tell them my school loan is only 100 a month but my 30k for flight training runs me about 350 a month. Therefore if you have 3 times the amount and what not that's about 900-1050. They all think I'm joking. Some really do not even notice the amount they take out in terms of repayment though in my experience. Its kind of scary.

[moose]

It is scary. You are absolutely right though, the most important thing seems to be the letter of approval and absolutely no thought about the following 2 years.

I payed ATP's old price of 35k and I hate opening that bill. $450/month on that, $500/month in rent, car insurance and groceries... i mean, thats $200/month to live on... say you are conservative and spend $40/day during a 4 day trip... thats 200 gone... you have no money left to pay yourself at the end of the month.

[cj4pilot]

Well lets see here, I have had my Private for 9 years. I had a sucessful career as an A&P for a Major Aircraft Manufacturer. I am going to be leaving ATP with 600 hrs TT, 135ish or whatever multi. I was lucky enough to be able to use a home equity loan ~4.4% APR. I just needed to finish my ratings. For me the question was how can I find the time?? I can always go back to wrenching, and flight instruct on the side. The problem for me was time. I am willing to pay the extra money to finish quickly, without having to deal with trying to work and learn. I have been able to do more in 1 month than in 9 years because of all the commitments with work and school. So I hope I'm not stupid and not doing my reaserch, because I went in knowing that the bubble could burst at any time. Doesn't anyone remember when you actually used to have to be an Instructor for years before you could get a "commuter" job. I guess not. Of course when you got the "commuter" job your pay was equal to or better than today's "Regionals". I am just trying to vouch for the fact that hopefully I am not a woefully uninformed ATP student that is going to have to pay off my loan with a job at Pizza Hut. But then again I did choose ATP so there must be something wrong with me.

[blee256]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

I'd recommend a quick phone call to ATP to find that out. I'm sure they will be willing to discuss that with you.

I think Bob has the correct answer for your original question of "what is ATP promising its employees and students?.

Originally Posted by moose

I happen to agree with you DE727UPS. I'm not concerned with what ATP will try to sell to new students but whether or not these new guys have been keeping up with whats going on. Has ATP addressed the issues of perhaps not having a job 2 months after being hired? Have ACPP students thought about a back up? Is ATP still doing on sight interviews?

How long have you been in the industry? This isnt the first time the industry has seen a downturn like this. When I went to ATP about 5 years ago practically no one was hiring. At the time all the instructors were shooting for 1000tt to get on with CHQ. They were about the only ones growing.

Why would ATP addressing the issue of being jobless in 2 months? If you sell burgers, do you tell people they are gonna get fat? Or if you sell cars, that next your car will be worth 30% less? I dont know what ATP is telling people. But if was answering the phone, I would say somehting like this

"yeah the industry is hurting right now, but keep in mind once you start here, it will be 8 months to a year AT LEAST before you have the requirements to move on to an airline. And with this volatile industry, who knows who'll be hiring next year. Eight months to a year ago today everyone and their mom was hiring, so things can change in an instant! But even if it takes a little longer, the ACPP package comes with your CFIs certs, so you can instruct as long as need be"

Originally Posted by moose

EDIT* Plus those agreements are a big part of ATPs marketing and I was curious if the possibility of not finding a job is ever mentioned during "indoc."

Contrary to popular belief, ATP doesn't exist to make pilots, it exists to make money.Just like any other business. Do i agree with all the academies marketing practices? no. Do I think a 7 day CRJ FTD course and 300 hours is enough to fly an RJ? NO! But as a business if offering that program gets you $$. you better sell the heck out of it.

Bottom line is (like you said) Everyone needs to do their research, A fool and his money are soon parted i think is the phrase.

Originally Posted by moose

I payed ATP's old price of 35k and I hate opening that bill. $450/month on that, $500/month in rent, car insurance and groceries... i mean, thats $200/month to live on... say you are conservative and spend $40/day during a 4 day trip... thats 200 gone... you have no money left to pay yourself at the end of the month.

1)4 X 40 = $160.
2) if you're spending 40 bucks a day on food, you're definitely not being conservative. Even in MSP where food is $$ if you spend more than 25 a day, you're eating way too much.

[moose]

whoops i did type 40/day... i meant $40/a 4day.

[Sig]

Originally Posted by blee256

Bottom line is (like you said) Everyone needs to do their research, A fool and his money are soon parted i think is the phrase.

It is time for Sig to pull out a [Clue X 4] and toss in $.02.

I went through ATP in '02. My newhire class of CFIs spent about 5 months in the pit answering phones- I think that is a record. That was the state of the industry back then, and who knew it would wildly over correct within 30 months to the point a pulse and ticket got you a job?! It was bleak- very bleak. We were in it to get the ratings, get some experience, and run like hell.

I was in the dead start of what became a brutal divorce when I started flying there.

I was broke, no real prospects, crazy things happening all around me that didn't really make sense (including my day to day life as a CFI at ATP, freakish personal health concerns, ad nauseum), and dammit, I kept on trucking. Most of my life was one hell of a wreck, but I'm incredibly stubborn- I knew only one thing: I was gonna fly.

So I did.

And I have.

And I'm happy. And I'm a captain. And I am literally having the time of my life. And it could all end early Monday morning- you never, ever know...

The point is, don't try to navigate your way through this nonsense and hope you come out like a PVT newhire at a legacy in the 60's- ain't nothing that easy anymore! YOU CAN NOT PLAN A FULL BEGINNING TO END CAREER IN THIS INDUSTRY.

The overlying higher point to my whining about myself is this: You make the decision to go or not to go to ATP, then never look back. Either it makes sense to you or it does not. Go, or do not.

If you have to live the dream, make it so. Persevere, but you can't do that by fretting over the what-ifs in a dark room in front of a computer. Get out and do it, or get busy on another career.

And to Bob: Hullo, Sir! I bet you fly that EMB as well as you flew that Seminole. You were a darned good pilot at 250 hours. [What the hell am I thinking? More like 130 hours.... flew the hell out of that thing.]

** ADDENDUM:

Some readers might misunderstand the point of bringing up my day-to-day as a CFI. It had nothing to do with ATP; it was the imbroglio my personal life became and it affected me in ways I didn't recognize at the time. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. ATP was a perfect fit for me and me alone.

And as a further side note: When it all comes together, however you get "here" is perfectly worth it. You might be eating Ramen or foregoing nights out with the wife... but FWIW, my impulse buys today were a 58" plasma TV, a new mattress/box set, and some swanky linens.

I did that after I paid my bills.

For next month.

Cash purchases, all.

So yeah, it is certainly worth it- eventually.