Recent graduate's impressions

[Asta]

I finished the career pilot program recently and wanted to post my impressions and “advice” on the board for those who are interested.

1. You get what you pay for. I got all of my ratings in 90 days. Though I took four months to finish, I probably took about a month off total here and there.

2. ATP is a good deal, financially speaking. Prior to going to the program I checked out many local schools and no one could approximate the program or price. There are few FBOs out there with ME aircraft to begin with, and those that do charge an arm and a leg. To reproduce the program at a local FBO (for me, near NYC) would have cost between $10K and $20K more than ATP.

3. The quality of instruction was quite good. My main concern going into the program was the quality of instruction. I knew the instructors were going to be inexperienced compared to the old Korean War era Air Force pilot who taught me to fly, because it is ATP policy to hire recent program graduates to teach. Notwithstanding this, I found the instruction overall pretty good. (Many FBO instructors are young and inexperienced, too; it is the nature of the business. And while I came across one CFI who was a clunker, I was able to switch.) All CFIs teach the ATP method, and while they as individuals may be inexperienced, they are using a method and material that works.

4. You must be self-motivated at ATP to succeed. If you sit around waiting to be taught, you will fall behind. There is little ground school and often students are not given enough direction, particularly at the outset of the program. While the program is hyper-organized on paper, this tends to fall apart in practice, particularly at busy facilities. I knew one guy who waited around for weeks while they tried complete his time building. You need to be a squeaky wheel if you want the grease. You need to be pro-active to move the program forward.

5. Also, you need to motivate yourself to study, to get written exams knocked out, to prepare for orals, etc. You will get as much or as little out of the program as you put into it. A lot of (young) guys, get into the program and treat it as a big frat house. They will still graduate, probably, but they will not do as well ITRW as those who use the time to really nail the material.

6. The cross-countries are fantastic. This is where the program really pays off for a lot of students, including me. It is where they really learn to be a pilot. There is nothing that compares to getting into that plane at last without an instructor or DE breathing down your neck. Try to fly as much actual instrument and night as you can. When PIC, fly from the right seat. Shoot an IAP every flight.

7. The PA44 is a great plane. Loved it. Not fast or particularly sexy but a great learning platform. Very stable. Won’t bite you in the ass. I found ATP’s equipment well-maintained with only a few squawks that were not safety related (e.g. heaters).

8. Find a DE who is not a rubber stamp. Some DEs will sign anybody off provided he will not kill himself or anyone else. Find a DE with a higher standard. I had one tough old bird and stayed with him for all my checkrides. I busted three of them, but I’m a better pilot because he busted me, although another DE would have signed me off.

9. Jump in the sim whenever you can. Even if you’re not logging the time, use the opportunity to learn instrument procedures, flows, etc.

10. CFI school at ATP needs help, at least at the ATL facility. Was taught nothing in ground school, and what I learned I had to teach myself. The flying portion was worthwhile, however. Spins are great.

11. Do the CRJ program. Walk don’t run. The program is excellent. You will be taught by pilots who are flying these jets in the real world. It is a lot of work; expect to work from 6 AM to midnight, but you will be ready for airline training when you are done.

Hope this helps someone.

[ry28]

what are your plans now after completing the program? there is a school where i am that will finish me up to my muti for 25 thous. (single instru. single comm. single cfi and muti comm.) would you say i would be better off doing that rather than going to atp for 65 thous. my goal is to make a career as a pilot.

[BillH]

When I was going to ATP, all I wanted to do was go fly something bigger, anything, Shorts 360, ATR72, didn't matter.
Now that I am flight instructing in Miami, I feel no need or rush to go to a regional, it's all the same damn thing, some airplanes just fly a little higher and faster.
I agree to all the points made, you must be self motivated, if your not, well you get what you deserve, a boot in the ass! I honestly don't care if I am a career flight instructor. Maybe one day I will get the urge to fly something requiring less skill.

[meyers9163]

Good write up, but nothing negative at all? That's interesting. Lastly jet course are way over rated..... You will hear that from every 121 person who is currently in the 121 world.

Lastly I know you said ATP is cheaper? Perhaps in New York it is. However the average FBO is about 40k for IRA-MEI. Just had a fellow JCer who was going to go to ATP check out my place I gave him. All his stuff from IRA-MEI for only 40k if not less.

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Good write up, but nothing negative at all?

4. You must be self-motivated at ATP to succeed. If you sit around waiting to be taught, you will fall behind. There is little ground school and often students are not given enough direction, particularly at the outset of the program. While the program is hyper-organized on paper, this tends to fall apart in practice, particularly at busy facilities. I knew one guy who waited around for weeks while they tried complete his time building. You need to be a squeaky wheel if you want the grease. You need to be pro-active to move the program forward.

10. CFI school at ATP needs help, at least at the ATL facility. Was taught nothing in ground school, and what I learned I had to teach myself. The flying portion was worthwhile, however. Spins are great.



I wouldn't call that nothing. 2 out of 10, that's 20%. How much more did you want?

[vladi34]

Thank you for that wirte up, I am actually looking to start at the ATL facility on July 7th. Got the loans approved just trying to round up the $2k for deposit. Did you live at their apartments? That is what I am planning to do, how are they (if you did)? Also you said that there is no ground school, does that mean that if I ask my instructor for help to go over the materials they will be unwilling to do it? Any more personal feedback you can give me on that location would be much appreciated.
Thanks

[Asta]

Originally Posted by vladi34

Thank you for that wirte up, I am actually looking to start at the ATL facility on July 7th. Got the loans approved just trying to round up the $2k for deposit. Did you live at their apartments? That is what I am planning to do, how are they (if you did)? Also you said that there is no ground school, does that mean that if I ask my instructor for help to go over the materials they will be unwilling to do it? Any more personal feedback you can give me on that location would be much appreciated.
Thanks

ATL (FTY actually) is a busy facility, and I heard horror stories from students there about having to fly the sim at 3 AM just because it was the only time open. I'd recommend RIC--not quite so busy, good airspace, and a short flight to the practice areas.

Yes, you can always grab an instructor for impromptu ground school, and sometimes they will sit you down in a classroom to discuss a topic but it is hardly a formalized thing, in my experience.

BTW, CFI school in JAX is supposed to be better than at FTY.

Apartments are about the same at all facilities; decent, and as clean as you keep them!

[mdolezal]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Lastly I know you said ATP is cheaper? Perhaps in New York it is. However the average FBO is about 40k for IRA-MEI. Just had a fellow JCer who was going to go to ATP check out my place I gave him. All his stuff from IRA-MEI for only 40k if not less.

Just an FYI, I'm the guy Paul is talking about here... I was (still am, technically) scheduled to start at Stuart ATP June 30th, but looks like they'll be getting the cancellation notice shortly (barring something bizarre happening). I had checked out a few FBO's locally, but nothing really appealed to me, nor did they have the fleet or instructor base required for a career program. So, I figured I'd have to settle for ATP... it sounded fun, looked good, and let's face it, you probably get a decent program when all is said and done. BUT, you pay out the wazoo for it (wazoo is a word). So, to some, ATP could be a viable option (Heck, I don't regret looking at it or putting a deposit down for it). But Paul informed me of a great FBO that was fairly local. I checked it out, and he's right - they appear to have a quality program, great fleet, and a solid base of instructors. And, he's not lying, they can do pretty much the same thing for around $40K (quite possibly less). It may take a bit longer than 90 days, but personally, I felt that taking a bit longer on such training may be (I know, this is a crazy thought) a better idea - I don't want to be taught how to pass a test, I want to be taught how to be a better pilot, and as such, have the confidence I can pass any test any time without a 90 day gouge. So, taking a few extra weeks or months out, really, may not be a bad idea.
Of course, I'll have to update this once I've completed the program. But I really do have confidence in the FBO route, because really, it just comes down to the dedication you as a pilot have to learn and how much time you can put in.
That's my two cents for the day.
MD
Post Script: Thanks again, Paul. Your advice has been greatly appreciated.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by mdolezal

Just an FYI, I'm the guy Paul is talking about here... I was (still am, technically) scheduled to start at Stuart ATP June 30th, but looks like they'll be getting the cancellation notice shortly (barring something bizarre happening). I had checked out a few FBO's locally, but nothing really appealed to me, nor did they have the fleet or instructor base required for a career program. So, I figured I'd have to settle for ATP... it sounded fun, looked good, and let's face it, you probably get a decent program when all is said and done. BUT, you pay out the wazoo for it (wazoo is a word). So, to some, ATP could be a viable option (Heck, I don't regret looking at it or putting a deposit down for it). But Paul informed me of a great FBO that was fairly local. I checked it out, and he's right - they appear to have a quality program, great fleet, and a solid base of instructors. And, he's not lying, they can do pretty much the same thing for around $40K (quite possibly less). It may take a bit longer than 90 days, but personally, I felt that taking a bit longer on such training may be (I know, this is a crazy thought) a better idea - I don't want to be taught how to pass a test, I want to be taught how to be a better pilot, and as such, have the confidence I can pass any test any time without a 90 day gouge. So, taking a few extra weeks or months out, really, may not be a bad idea.
Of course, I'll have to update this once I've completed the program. But I really do have confidence in the FBO route, because really, it just comes down to the dedication you as a pilot have to learn and how much time you can put in.
That's my two cents for the day.
MD
Post Script: Thanks again, Paul. Your advice has been greatly appreciated.

No doubt it can be done cheaper in some places. I checked out two FBOs near me, one had a Twin Star and the other a Dutchess. The latter is a decent trainer but the former--while a great flyer--is probably not the best platform to learn multi engine on. Also, they only had one multi, so if that goes down . . . Both FBOs gave ball park estimates that exceeded ATP, which offers a fixed price. If you've done your private, you know the usual FBO drill is to keep you training as long as possible and to milk you for all you're worth. ATP doesn't do that. Their incentive is to finish you as quickly as possible. While this is great financially, quicker isn't always better. You will be pushed to the checkride as soon as you meet the minimums, and the minimums are not always sufficient in my opinion. Even so, I feel I learned as well as or better than I would have done at the FBOs I was considering. At the CRJ course, for instance, those who went to ATP did a lot better than those who did not, it seemed, including one guy who quit after he was given a hold in the sim and didn't even know what an EFC time was.

So, if you've got an FBO with good instructors, good aircraft, good aircraft/instructor availability, and a decent (fixed?) price, then you've done well for yourself. Some FBOs partner ME students together for time building, and I recommend you do that. As I say above, the cross country phase at ATP was excellent and I recommend you try to duplicate that in some manner.

I don't want to come off as Mr. ATP here. When I was training I had a lot of complaints, but what I'm trying to get across is that on balance my experience was very good from both a learning and financial perspective. When you're at ATP, bitching about ATP is the number one sport and the program is not without problems. But having done it I am very glad that I did.

[mdolezal]

Good observations, Asta. I do agree, FBO's can milk you, and that is certainly a positive about ATP - no time for milking, just GET IT DONE, which was certainly a pro for my ATP column. And the single twin, yes, that is certainly cause for concern... one could be weeks without a twin if something mechanical goes down, which, as you state, is certainly a factor to consider.
I appreciate your write up - very thorough, and I think it'll help a lot of people decide what they'd like to do as well!
MD

[BillH]

This is what ATP made possible for me.
I am now instructing at the school where I got my private pilots license.
I kid you not, some of my students today were sitting in the same exact ground school class with me back when I was doing private pilot. I now have all my ratings, they are working on their instrument.
They are still paying and training for their ratings, I am paying back my training and able to save money to go to South America every few months for some Colombian babe action. Thank you ATP!

[Sled14]

Originally Posted by BillH

...for some Colombian babe action. Thank you ATP!

Pics?

[vladi34]

Originally Posted by Asta

ATL (FTY actually) is a busy facility, and I heard horror stories from students there about having to fly the sim at 3 AM just because it was the only time open. I'd recommend RIC--not quite so busy, good airspace, and a short flight to the practice areas.

Yes, you can always grab an instructor for impromptu ground school, and sometimes they will sit you down in a classroom to discuss a topic but it is hardly a formalized thing, in my experience.

BTW, CFI school in JAX is supposed to be better than at FTY.

Apartments are about the same at all facilities; decent, and as clean as you keep them!

Sorry FTY, I am not yet versed in all of the airport 3 letter names... I'm sure that will come with time I actually toured the FTY facility back in March and got the feeling that it was a fairly busy place, however the reson I chose it was because my folks live in ATL and sister is attending Georgia Tech, I will be without my kids and wife for a few months and figured that some family support localy might be good... look at me I sound like a girl (ladies that was just an expression and not intended negatively towards any of you, so no need to jump me for it ). That way also my family can come down for visits and stay with my folks and maybe that way I will at least get to see them once or twice during my 5 month stint there.... One more quick question for you, I know that the price of the apartment is included in my "tuition" but what other living expenses (besides the obvious food and gas) did you have, like for instance did you have to pay utilities, parking, any extra check rides? It will help with my budgeting. Thanks once again for all the info.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by mdolezal

MD
Post Script: Thanks again, Paul. Your advice has been greatly appreciated.

It'll all work out. Just like ASTA was motivated to get it done and did a great job as will you. A lot of flying and learning obviously is up to the persons desire and passion to learn. Therefore you will be fine and indyaero will do you well! I am willing to put my reputation on that one!

[PCL_128]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Lastly jet course are way over rated..... You will hear that from every 121 person who is currently in the 121 world.

Not this 121 person who has been flying 121 for a while. I strongly recommend the jet courses (I'm only familiar with the JetU and ATP courses, so I don't know about the others). Can you get by without them? Some can, but a lot can't. The fact is, washout rates are practically nonexistent for jet course graduates while they approach 60% for non-graduates at some regionals. Going straight from 500TT/50ME to a CRJ isn't easy for most pilots. The jet courses smooth the transition and give you a much better shot. But that's just my opinion.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Not this 121 person who has been flying 121 for a while. I strongly recommend the jet courses (I'm only familiar with the JetU and ATP courses, so I don't know about the others). Can you get by without them? Some can, but a lot can't. The fact is, washout rates are practically nonexistent for jet course graduates while they approach 60% for non-graduates at some regionals. Going straight from 500TT/50ME to a CRJ isn't easy for most pilots. The jet courses smooth the transition and give you a much better shot. But that's just my opinion.

To each there own. I know for one I strongly disagree and as do many others out there with your stance, but you are def entitled to your thoughts on that issue.

[awseft]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Not this 121 person who has been flying 121 for a while. I strongly recommend the jet courses (I'm only familiar with the JetU and ATP courses, so I don't know about the others). Can you get by without them? Some can, but a lot can't. The fact is, washout rates are practically nonexistent for jet course graduates while they approach 60% for non-graduates at some regionals. Going straight from 500TT/50ME to a CRJ isn't easy for most pilots. The jet courses smooth the transition and give you a much better shot. But that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

To each there own. I know for one I strongly disagree and as do many others out there with your stance, but you are def entitled to your thoughts on that issue.

I can tell you the CRJ course opens your eyes quite a bit to the changes you are about to encounter in a new aircraft. No it is not airline ground school but it does give you some foundation to work with when you get to ground school.

[surreal1221]

Hate to say it, because it is really sad news. . .but. . .

We've lost a couple guys from CPTs and SIMs who completed some sort of RJ / jet course.

It's unfortunate, but I strongly believe these courses give those who complete them a false sense of security and entitlement. You don't deserve the job because you've done some RJ course. You still have a lot of work ahead of you.

[Captain_Bob]

Hate to say it... but...

We've lost far more guys/gals who didn't complete an RJ course than did.

It's unfortunate too...

Bob

[meyers9163]

its an age old battle..... to each there own. Many thoughts on this. Helps some yes. False sense to others yes. Should you have to take an RJ course to complete an 121 program no. Do some do better because they take the course, yes. If one cant pass 121 without the course should they take it who knows. However many out there who would take my stance saying if you cannot pass 121 without it, perhaps you are not ready for the 121 world.

[Asta]

I recommend the jet course, not because it turns low timers into jet pilots because it gives anyone without jet experience an eye into what its like. I know for a fact that Eagle prefers people to have the ATP jet course because it better prepares them; in fact, if you can believe ATP no one who has had their jet course ever failed training at Eagle.

I also know it is helpful in weeding out people who should be doing different sorts of flying. My sim partner bailed mid-week because he couldn't get his head around it. Another guy buggered everything up and had to receive additional training. It's not an easy course.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Asta

I also know it is helpful in weeding out people who should be doing different sorts of flying. My sim partner bailed mid-week because he couldn't get his head around it. Another guy buggered everything up and had to receive additional training. It's not an easy course.

It just depends. I mean if you take it at a CMEL wet you get what you expect. However if you take it at 1000 hours there's a huge difference. Too much to be said about experience more then a jet course. Therefore if one takes it after their CMEL I'd have a hard time believing just because they did not do well in a jet course they are not meant to be an airline pilot. However fact is they perhaps should have polished their skills up instructing etc. I dunno....

My stance is the age old, nothing will prepare you for the airlines like experience will. Getting out and flying and teaching has a lot to be said for it. More so then a jet course IMO.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

However fact is they perhaps should have polished their skills up instructing etc. I dunno....

Don't know if that is a fact or not... but...

Originally Posted by meyers9163

My stance is the age old, nothing will prepare you for the airlines like experience will. Getting out and flying and teaching has a lot to be said for it. More so then a jet course IMO.

Age old... but it's open to interpretation as well.

I agree that "experience" will prepare you well for the airlines... but it's that "experience" that is open to interpretation.

There is another age old argument that went round and round here on JC several years ago... and still pops up every now and then. It goes something like this:

We can agree that instructing is great experience... but... who's better prepared for the airlines: The low time (sub-1000hr) MEI/II who trains CRM and skill proficiency on a daily basis that involves instrument skills, approaches, cross-country flying, commercial standard maneuvers, etc... or the 1500-2000hr CFI, with minimum multi, who is flying the pattern on a regular basis and who's primary teaching vocabulary consists of such phrases as: "More right rudder", "Hold it off, hoooold it", "Let's go out to the practice area", etc.

Let's throw in a third option... that same CFI in scenario 2 who took it upon himself to attend an RJ course to gain a bit more "experience". Of course there's even further arguements that say he should spend his money on a block of twin time and just fly that for an extra 100 hours to get his "experience" up.

There's arguments to all sides... however... where does one really gain the "experience" that will be beneficial to feeling prepared for a 121 program?

• Some people are just naturally self-confident and motivated enough that it's really an non-issue and they will do well in 121.
• Some people are naturally self confident and find out that training for 121 ops. ends up kicking them in the a$$ and they end up struggling.
• Some people may be either of the the above... but want to learn what it's like to prepare to fly a larger, more complex, turbine powered aircraft in a faux 121 setting with the comfort of knowing it's a "non-jeopardy" event.

As an example... I personally know lots of pilots that attended and paid for a SIM/Interview Prep for a regional... just down the street from the Candlewood Suites (that will give it away as to which airline it is). Southwest has an SIM prep course... CAL has one too... I'm sure there's more.

Here's some basic observations from random interviewees at aviationinterviews.com:

Originally Posted by aviationinterviews.com

"For you guys that are flight instructors, be prepared to fly the sim. Unless you are one of those guys that sit around and practice flying a sim on your days off I would get some sim time before the interview. Two guys were sent home after their sim."

"Make sure you are current and fresh on flying with basic instruments and you'll do fine. I recommend a little sim prep to make sure your IFR situational awareness is good."

"The SIM was the hardest part. The approach was a difficult approach that was very dynamic."

"One guy failed the sim and was on his way home by about 10."

So... if someone wanted to gain the "experience" that they personally felt was necessary to be successful in a 121 environment... much less an interview... then more power to them.

Bob

[meyers9163]

Its alright.... we agree to disagree bob. Its all. I am completely 180 on that whole issue and all your comments above. But thus we are entitle to our own.

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

ASTA, I have read about some guys that did the ACPP but did not ever get to do the Regional Jet Course in Jax, why is that?