Recent graduate's impressions

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by SatelliteBeachPilot

ASTA, I have read about some guys that did the ACPP but did not ever get to do the Regional Jet Course in Jax, why is that?

Uh oh..... ATP manipulating more rules?

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by SatelliteBeachPilot

ASTA, I have read about some guys that did the ACPP but did not ever get to do the Regional Jet Course in Jax, why is that?

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Uh oh..... ATP manipulating more rules?

No manipulating. Until recently, the Citation training was part of the program, not the RJ course.There are approx 25 students left in the program that get the Citation, the newer students filtering through will receive the RJ class as part of the ACPP.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Uh oh..... ATP manipulating more rules?

No, Pfly is correct. Until late last year, ACPP grads got a jet ride. Basically an hour in a CJ and a high altitude sign off. Big deal. Now ATP raised the fee and grads get the CRJ transition course. I was one of the first in the program to get it. About half of the people I was in the program with had the jet ride, the other had the course. Those who had the jet ride said it was fun but essentially worthless. The course, as I say, is worthwhile.

On the above debate, which indeed has been passed around JC for a long time, I have to weigh in on Bob's side, though I admit I know nothing about nothing. It just seems to me that in a modern glass cockpit of a regional jet stick-and-rudder skills don't matter as much as CRM and systems management proficiency. After all, you only fly the first 600 feet and the last 200, right . . . ? Kind of sad in a way, but I'm beginning to think its true. One instructor (an RJ FO) called himself a "flight systems manager, not a pilot."

[joliet]

Originally Posted by Asta

I finished the career pilot program recently and wanted to post my impressions an................

How much did they pay you for this write up?? Probably used the "change" they still owe me.

8. Find a DE who is not a rubber stamp. Some DEs will sign anybody off provided he will not kill himself or anyone else. Find a DE with a higher standard. I had one tough old bird and stayed with him for all my checkrides. I busted three of them, but I’m a better pilot because he busted me, although another DE would have signed me off.

How much did that cost you because you had a DE with a higher standard? At least $1200 I am guessing. You calling E.S. a rubber stamp? He'll run you down with his gray van of death, and leave a Jaguars imprint on your face.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by joliet

How much did they pay you for this write up?? Probably used the "change" they still owe me.


How much did that cost you because you had a DE with a higher standard? At least $1200 I am guessing. You calling E.S. a rubber stamp? He'll run you down with his gray van of death, and leave a Jaguars imprint on your face.

ATSA wrote from his experience... nothing more nothing less. He's got the right to tell us how he feels about the program. I dont think there's anything wrong with his post. And the DPE thing is very true. Some do just have a rubber stamp as bad as that sounds. I'd say if he failed a few checkrides he'd probably took some with ES and walt.... if he were in JAX.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by joliet

How much did they pay you for this write up?? Probably used the "change" they still owe me.


How much did that cost you because you had a DE with a higher standard? At least $1200 I am guessing. You calling E.S. a rubber stamp? He'll run you down with his gray van of death, and leave a Jaguars imprint on your face.

Well, isn't that special.

I don't know who "ES" is. I trained in RIC not JAX. I was given a choice to check with two DEs for my CAX single and CFI single. The rubber-stamp was passing guys on a combined ride that took about twenty minutes total. No lie. (The oral was five minutes and they flew once around the pattern and did some "maneuvers".)

I went with the other guy and busted because he wanted the chandelle flown per PTS at minimum controllable airspeed, i.e., to the horn. I did them the way I was taught, which was about 10 kts faster. So, I busted. He waived the recheck fee, I think because he was mad at ATP (long story), but I paid him $100 anyway and was happy to. Why? Because he taught me the right way to do a chandelle. If you go to a rubber stamp, your ticket feels cheap, imho.

Originally Posted by meyers9163

ATSA wrote from his experience... nothing more nothing less. He's got the right to tell us how he feels about the program. I dont think there's anything wrong with his post. And the DPE thing is very true. Some do just have a rubber stamp as bad as that sounds. I'd say if he failed a few checkrides he'd probably took some with ES and walt.... if he were in JAX.

I DID do one check in Florida, though--at Lauderdale. I checked my CFI initial with Pink Slip Pinkston . . . know him? Busted me because I forgot to turn on my fuel pumps when landing. Sucked.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Asta

I DID do one check in Florida, though--at Lauderdale. I checked my CFI initial with Pink Slip Pinkston . . . know him? Busted me because I forgot to turn on my fuel pumps when landing. Sucked.

I've heard about Pinkston! I heard he's a you know what..... His name is well deserved and given! But fuel pumps are kind of obvious as well ... live and learn though i guess!

[Asta]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

I've heard about Pinkston! I heard he's a you know what..... His name is well deserved and given! But fuel pumps are kind of obvious as well ... live and learn though i guess!

Tell me about it. There was Cub picking up banners between parallel runways and a blimp (no lie) hovering about 1000 feet from where I turned base to final, on a single engine I might add.

Not that I'm making excuses . . .

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by PCL_128

Not this 121 person who has been flying 121 for a while. I strongly recommend the jet courses (I'm only familiar with the JetU and ATP courses, so I don't know about the others). Can you get by without them? Some can, but a lot can't.

To each their own. When I did my interview with ASA, there were a bunch of guys that did the CRJ sim transition course. Several of them busted on the sim ride. Me and the other guy that passed were (relatively) high time CFIs with G1000 experience. We got paid to build our glass time, and we passed while the other guys didn't. Sure would've sucked to pay all that money and bust - particular for the ones that didn't even have a CFI rating!

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

We can agree that instructing is great experience... but... who's better prepared for the airlines: The low time (sub-1000hr) MEI/II who trains CRM and skill proficiency on a daily basis that involves instrument skills, approaches, cross-country flying, commercial standard maneuvers, etc... or the 1500-2000hr CFI, with minimum multi, who is flying the pattern on a regular basis and who's primary teaching vocabulary consists of such phrases as: "More right rudder", "Hold it off, hoooold it", "Let's go out to the practice area", etc.

Well, at my school all the more experienced CFIs are loaded up primarily with CFII students, while the new guys get all the primary students. After teaching enough -II students you get to the point where you can instantly visualize hold entries, PTs, appropriate bracketing, etc. Plus, a lot of these guys are doing some 135 on the side.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by Asta

On the above debate, which indeed has been passed around JC for a long time, I have to weigh in on Bob's side, though I admit I know nothing about nothing. It just seems to me that in a modern glass cockpit of a regional jet stick-and-rudder skills don't matter as much as CRM and systems management proficiency. After all, you only fly the first 600 feet and the last 200, right . . . ? Kind of sad in a way, but I'm beginning to think its true. One instructor (an RJ FO) called himself a "flight systems manager, not a pilot."

Great... So when your avionics act up or you have some MEL'd items, are you going to lose SA? What are you going to do when you need to go fly freight or charter in an old Navajo or Baron with steam gauges?

[tiredofshoveling]

Dont have time to elaborate now, cause im in the x country phase. Management at my location are dimwits, who dont communicate with the dpe's enough. I'm doing good compared to many but I dont like how people are treated or how the place is run. Dispatchers are complete jerks. The planes are maintained pretty well though. 0/12 people failed their CFI intitial during the lastest 2 classes in Las Vegas. Not good odds, I dont care who you are. And ATP is completely inflexible and want you to rush rush. Dont let em discontinue ur checkride if you need to. Fake a stomachache, whatever it takes. I think the 10 month is a better route 4-5 months is plenty fast.

Laters

[SnareMV17]

Some really great discussion here guys. For me, it's really important for me that I get a quality education. There are several routes for me to go through, especially locally. I can fly at a small FBO in Palo Alto, the FBO at Reid Hillview, or with the SJSU flying club at KSJC. Plenty of options here in the SF Bay Area. However. There are some aspects of ATP that just sound WAY too enticing to not seriously consider.

I will say this though... This forum has already led me to decided not to do my PPL with ATP. The SJSU flying club is just WAY too cheap at $52/hr wet hobbes on a C152 and $25/hr for instructor. Problem is... they only have C152s and C172s. How am I ever going to get multi time? Simple, I'm not. So that's not an option for all of my ratings. Now the local FBOs are an option, but I haven't gone out there yet to check up on what their instructors, fleet, and maintenance programs are like. I still have to get out of the community college and into SJSU before I can even consider starting flight training again. It's all enough to make me insane right now.

It's easy to spend imaginery money on a hypathetical scenario at this point, and even easier to imagine that I'd be able to pay off a $70k loan without a hitch. Right now Microsoft Flight Simulator is expensive enough for me. Who charges $60 for a piece of software that hardly works on a very strong computer? Haha. Now we're talking about something that is REALLY important. Lol.

Chris

[Asta]

Originally Posted by SnareMV17

Some really great discussion here guys. For me, it's really important for me that I get a quality education. There are several routes for me to go through, especially locally. I can fly at a small FBO in Palo Alto, the FBO at Reid Hillview, or with the SJSU flying club at KSJC. Plenty of options here in the SF Bay Area. However. There are some aspects of ATP that just sound WAY too enticing to not seriously consider.

I will say this though... This forum has already led me to decided not to do my PPL with ATP. The SJSU flying club is just WAY too cheap at $52/hr wet hobbes on a C152 and $25/hr for instructor. Problem is... they only have C152s and C172s. How am I ever going to get multi time? Simple, I'm not. So that's not an option for all of my ratings. Now the local FBOs are an option, but I haven't gone out there yet to check up on what their instructors, fleet, and maintenance programs are like. I still have to get out of the community college and into SJSU before I can even consider starting flight training again. It's all enough to make me insane right now.

It's easy to spend imaginery money on a hypathetical scenario at this point, and even easier to imagine that I'd be able to pay off a $70k loan without a hitch. Right now Microsoft Flight Simulator is expensive enough for me. Who charges $60 for a piece of software that hardly works on a very strong computer? Haha. Now we're talking about something that is REALLY important. Lol.

Chris

I think you're right. I would not recommend ATP for the PPL. Private students are definitely at the back of the bus. I saw too many guys just stuck waiting around to build time. Get your PPL locally, fly a ton of cross-countries, and do integrated training if possible.

[SnareMV17]

What is this integrated training you speak of?

[BillH]

Originally Posted by Asta

I DID do one check in Florida, though--at Lauderdale. I checked my CFI initial with Pink Slip Pinkston . . . know him? Busted me because I forgot to turn on my fuel pumps when landing. Sucked.

Ahh Pink Slip Pinkston, I know him well. Funny how it seams the easier the D.E, the better the chance you will fail yourself on something very stupid...

[Asta]

Originally Posted by SnareMV17

What is this integrated training you speak of?

Primary flight training in which instrument scan is included in order to better prepare you for IFR training, which presumably will follow soon after your PPL.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by BillH

Ahh Pink Slip Pinkston, I know him well. Funny how it seams the easier the D.E, the better the chance you will fail yourself on something very stupid...

You're right, he is a friendly old bird, and the ride was actually pretty low key. My bad.

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by Asta

Primary flight training in which instrument scan is included in order to better prepare you for IFR training, which presumably will follow soon after your PPL.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this is mandatory in the PPL - you have to have a minimum of 3 hours of hood time where you learn a scan.

If he's getting a PPL, he doesn't have the option - he has to learn this. I'm just confused because you said "Integrated Training" as if this was something he could shop for. He can't.

Did I mis-read you?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but this is mandatory in the PPL - you have to have a minimum of 3 hours of hood time where you learn a scan.

If he's getting a PPL, he doesn't have the option - he has to learn this. I'm just confused because you said "Integrated Training" as if this was something he could shop for. He can't.

Did I mis-read you?

I think he was talking about integrate training in after he gets his PPL and is building time. If he were going to go to ATP get ahead of the game a little while time building.

[BillH]

Why on earth would you want to do any time building OUTSIDE of atp?
ATP's rate of 93$ an hour WITH an instructor doing ALL IFR X/C time building, you would be stupid to do it elsewhere for more money and most likely not under IFR.
I received a VERY nice 30 hour intro to IFR flight before I ever started the ACPP. It made the instrument portion that much easier!

[SnareMV17]

Originally Posted by BillH

Why on earth would you want to do any time building OUTSIDE of atp?
ATP's rate of 93$ an hour WITH an instructor doing ALL IFR X/C time building, you would be stupid to do it elsewhere for more money and most likely not under IFR.
I received a VERY nice 30 hour intro to IFR flight before I ever started the ACPP. It made the instrument portion that much easier!

Let me see if I understand this correctly. So after I get my PPL here, I'll have to do MORE flying for time building before I could start the ACPP at ATP?

[killbilly]

Originally Posted by SnareMV17

Let me see if I understand this correctly. So after I get my PPL here, I'll have to do MORE flying for time building before I could start the ACPP at ATP?

Correct. You have to time-build to 85 hours, I believe.

[Asta]

Originally Posted by killbilly

Correct. You have to time-build to 85 hours, I believe.

You will need 25 XC PIC hours before you can enroll in the career pilot program.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by wrxpilot

To each their own. When I did my interview with ASA, there were a bunch of guys that did the CRJ sim transition course. Several of them busted on the sim ride. Me and the other guy that passed were (relatively) high time CFIs with G1000 experience. We got paid to build our glass time, and we passed while the other guys didn't. Sure would've sucked to pay all that money and bust - particular for the ones that didn't even have a CFI rating!

why would having experience with the G1000 be any help in transitioning to a jet? Ive never really understood that. Ive flown the G1000, its nice but i dont see any advantage to having experience with it unless the jet youre flying has the G1000. If it doesnt, you still need to learn the FMS etc (most are quite a bit different than the garmin)

Getting used to looking at the PFD/MFD is kind of a no brainer. i had no problem feeling comfortable with after doing my initial instrument training with steam gauges.