ATP CFI's

[chillfly]

I am graduating from an aviation program in june and am looking for employment. I noticed that pay for outside instructors has gone up (to poverty levels), so I would like to know if ATP would be a good place to work. I have read a lot of posts about ATP and opinions seem mixed.

Are they hiring? at all locations?

What are the working conditions like?

Pros/Cons?

Really any information would help.

[SIUav8er]

Great place to work. I highly recommend it! You fly a ton, teach almost exclusively IFR/multi engine, and the pay isnt too bad as you already noted.

A lot of people are gonna chime in and tell you "it sucks", "the VP is an ***hole", "the new hire training in JAX is lame", "the amount of hours you work is lame" etc, etc. But the truth is, youre flying great airplanes, the VP is a cool guy if you do your job, the new hire training isnt so bad (I had fun!). You do work (read:fly) a lot, but its on your own schedule you just have to get the students trained on time. Another great thing is the apartment for $300 a month. That makes the "low" pay worth it in my opinion.

I was there for a year and worked at a small flight school for about a month before applying at ATP. I can tell you that ATP was a much much better fit for me than the small school. If your goal is to be a career CFI, ATP might not be the best place unless you get into management. But if youre there to build experience and fly twins, its the best place to be. Its nice having motivated students that want to fly professionally too (youwont have too many of those at the mom and pop flight school). I met so many great people while working for ATP, that alone was one of the best aspects of working there.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Great place to work. I highly recommend it! You fly a ton, teach almost exclusively IFR/multi engine, and the pay isnt too bad as you already noted.

A lot of people are gonna chime in and tell you "it sucks", "the VP is an ***hole", "the new hire training in JAX is lame", "the amount of hours you work is lame" etc, etc. But the truth is, youre flying great airplanes, the VP is a cool guy if you do your job, the new hire training isnt so bad (I had fun!). You do work (read:fly) a lot, but its on your own schedule you just have to get the students trained on time. Another great thing is the apartment for $300 a month. That makes the "low" pay worth it in my opinion.

I was there for a year and worked at a small flight school for about a month before applying at ATP. I can tell you that ATP was a much much better fit for me than the small school. If your goal is to be a career CFI, ATP might not be the best place unless you get into management. But if youre there to build experience and fly twins, its the best place to be. Its nice having motivated students that want to fly professionally too (youwont have too many of those at the mom and pop flight school). I met so many great people while working for ATP, that alone was one of the best aspects of working there.

Depends who you ask... someone like above who has only been through ATP and knows only atp or someone who has been else where and knows how great operations outside truely are. Here's the real thing... there is an ATP cfi and there's a real CFI..... There's a CFI who does ground, knows how to teach, etc etc.... Then there are ATP standards who advertise to have DPE who know their ways etc.... to make for an laid back checkride etc.... Anyways you can use the search function and get my take..... Many FBO's out there that are far and beyound better. Howeve those who lack the experience from other places are unable to truely put any input on this issue. Take what you here with a grain of salt. If you really need ME time that bad use ATP and make them your you know what then leave and go instruct for real...... Honeslty its about to be summer and FBO's are picking up flying and you will fly just as much if not more at most FBO's.... Again anyone who wants to argue that hasnt taught at an FBO outside of ATP..... I live in INDY and all FBO's right now are already billing over 100 hours a month.... You figure they are being paid over 23 an hour plus a salary of 150 a week or so.... doing the math that's about 2300 and oh 600 in salary so 2900...... Again your choice.... but coming from a University depending where you are coming from you might really DISLIKE it....

[777forever]

Instructing at ATP is EXCELLENT for twin time. If you already have the twin time there are much higher paying jobs to go to. Falcon Aviation Academy, Pan Am, and that one school in northern California that teaches Korean and Indian students(forgot the name)

[Clocks]

This post is going to be all over the place, so don't read this thinking I care whether you go to ATP or not.

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

A lot of people are gonna chime in and tell you "it sucks", "the VP is an ***hole", "the new hire training in JAX is lame", "the amount of hours you work is lame" etc, etc.

But all of that is also true

youre flying great airplanes

I wasn't

Originally Posted by meyers9163

there is an ATP cfi and there's a real CFI.....

There are bad CFI and there are good CFIs. I saw both at my university, I saw both at ATP.

Any CFI who repeatedly sends students to the same DPE is going to feel the urge to cut corners. The good ones don't, the bad ones do. You probably see the scenario that leads to laziness more often at ATP because ATP CFIs send students to the same DPEs for the same few ratings multiple times a month, month after month.

I live in INDY and all FBO's right now are already billing over 100 hours a month.... You figure they are being paid over 23 an hour plus a salary of 150 a week or so.... doing the math that's about 2300 and oh 600 in salary so 2900...... Again your choice.... but coming from a University depending where you are coming from you might really DISLIKE it....

Ah the mysterious non-academy "$36,000/year CFI job" that you can walk into off the street to 150 billable hours a month...but when push comes to shove no one can name even one. Go ahead and post some FBO names though. When xjet furloughs me I'll move out to indy with my brother and double my salary.

[checksix]

<personal attack removed>

I agree with the above post as it relates to a good CFI or a bad CFI. You will find one or the other in every school and FBO. The question is what are you and what will you do? ......hasnt been in ATP in a while. I have. I see ground and some pretty good training going on. I also see bad instruction- but I also know CFIs who got fired for it as well. I am not a koolaid drinker. I am a firm believer in PIC. I am a good instructor because I want to be. Do you want multi/ifr time? Come on to ATP and be one of the GOOD instructors.

[SpiraMirabilis]

I'd never recommend anyone work for ATP, but its been a while. When I went through you were paid $1000/mo minus 200(?) for housing, worked 7 days a week 12 hours a day with very little respect from the people signing your paycheck.

If all that has been changed was you now get paid $2,000/mo I still wouldn't recommend it but perhaps other things have changed as well.

If you're going to ATP -- go through it and then get a CFI job somewhere else.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by checksix

<removed personal attack>
I agree with the above post as it relates to a good CFI or a bad CFI. You will find one or the other in every school and FBO. The question is what are you and what will you do? Paul hasnt been in ATP in a while. I have. I see ground and some pretty good training going on. I also see bad instruction- but I also know CFIs who got fired for it as well. I am not a koolaid drinker. I am a firm believer in PIC. I am a good instructor because I want to be. Do you want multi/ifr time? Come on to ATP and be one of the GOOD instructors.

Dont ever try to call me out like that on a public forum. If you have an issue address it in PM.... that would be professional. My thoughts about ATP are just that. Clocks and forever777 both instructed about the same time I was there. We all have moved on. We all have our own thoughts.... However for you to come on here and say I hate ATP you are absolutely wrong. I hate and dislike those who cut corners, dont do the best and honestly thats what I encountered at ATP. Subpar instruction, subpar students, sub par mgt etc etc. I know what a great ran place felt like and I didnt experience that at atp. I only left in November (late) therefore am NOT far removed. I have a difficult time finding things have changed that much.

However once again if you have an issue my PM is not all that full. You can feel free to drop me a line. However I might also add I have my gold seal, i have a perfect pass rate etc as an CFI..... If you want to question that feel free but it stands for itself!

[checksix]

If you post negative in public forums (which is fine) dont whine when people respond in the negative in public forums.

Furthermore, if half of what you say is true, why did YOU work there for as long as you did? Why didnt you take the moral high road and go somewhere else?

It isnt that you post criticism, it is just that you have no balance. For every ATP CFI that cuts corners, i will show you one that isnt AND an FBO cfi that is, and an FBO CFI that isnt. It isnt location or flight schools that matter. It is the the individual.

Oh, got my gold seal as well...

Moderator Comment

personal issues need to be handled via pm.....the users don't care if two people cannot get along......

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by checksix

If you post negative in public forums (which is fine) dont whine when people respond in the negative in public forums.

Furthermore, if half of what you say is true, why did YOU work there for as long as you did? Why didnt you take the moral high road and go somewhere else?

It isnt that you post criticism, it is just that you have no balance. For every ATP CFI that cuts corners, i will show you one that isnt AND an FBO cfi that is, and an FBO CFI that isnt. It isnt location or flight schools that matter. It is the the individual.

Oh, got my gold seal as well...

This is the classic ATP mentality..... <....>.... I simply used atp and got out. I had a job with PSA due to connections and friends I had and an offer back at the FBO... I was leaving period..... I also had a job at ERAU due to my manager in DAB who recommended me and DPEs down there. I had no intentions of sticking around. Further more you appear to be one who is posting on behalf of ATP.... I would recommend our moderaotors to look into that as well. As it appears all your post at for ATP. In addition you seem to constantly find complaints with myself and DEL.... However we post our thoughts about ATP. We keep our displeasures to factual information.... I had a job and I did it. I have no reason to argue with you as you appear to be a new member and not understand that we are a classy website.... We are not that crap over on other forums and I would grealty appreciate if you treat this website with further respect and the people on here with more respect.....

In addition there is a simple function on here.... Its called a search function.... I have recommended certain people to ATP.... Certain people due to circumstances.... However again you appear new and would not know that..... <...> That would be a high road to take for yourself..... other then that i'll leave it to you to educate yourself... In addition keep in mind there are certain bridges you do not want to burn on this site as its a weird and small industry..... <...>. However that could change.... Still time!

[MQAAord]

Moderator Comment

Keep the personal attacks OFF the forum. Personal attacks towards other members is NOT tolerated. Some people have differing opinions about places, both sides can be represented without resorting to name calling.

[BillH]

ATP is one way to get multi time. After I went to ATP, I went back to the school where I got my private and now am their "main" multi-engine instructor. I exclusively teach instrument and multi. Next month getting a huge raise so I was making more than I would of at ATP, even more next month.
Another benefit to where I teach, my employer teaches me like family, I am respected, look upon for guidance, and treated like a human being.
Now with all that said, the biggest reason I am their "main" Multi guy is because I went to ATP and got the 140 hours of multi. It is pretty weird, we use the ATP training supplement and checklist, so even though I am not working for ATP, I teach the seminole as if we were at ATP. Well, with a few additions, like adding a few inches of manifold pressure and reducing a few inches during the governor check.
AND YES, I cut the engine with the fuel cutoff switch, and I even will shut off the RIGHT engine in flight!!! Never could do that at ATP...

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

Depends who you ask... someone like above who has only been through ATP and knows only atp or someone who has been else where and knows how great operations outside truely are. Here's the real thing... there is an ATP cfi and there's a real CFI..... There's a CFI who does ground, knows how to teach, etc etc.... Then there are ATP standards who advertise to have DPE who know their ways etc.... to make for an laid back checkride etc.... Anyways you can use the search function and get my take..... Many FBO's out there that are far and beyound better. Howeve those who lack the experience from other places are unable to truely put any input on this issue. Take what you here with a grain of salt. If you really need ME time that bad use ATP and make them your you know what then leave and go instruct for real...... Honeslty its about to be summer and FBO's are picking up flying and you will fly just as much if not more at most FBO's.... Again anyone who wants to argue that hasnt taught at an FBO outside of ATP..... I live in INDY and all FBO's right now are already billing over 100 hours a month.... You figure they are being paid over 23 an hour plus a salary of 150 a week or so.... doing the math that's about 2300 and oh 600 in salary so 2900...... Again your choice.... but coming from a University depending where you are coming from you might really DISLIKE it....

You seem to forget what the original question was! The guy was asking how it was to WORK there, not your opinion/generalization of the quality of instructors at the location you happened to be at.

As for the response about people who work there dont know any better, thats BS. Ive worked for 3 flight schools including ATP, ive trained at 3 different schools as well. ATP was the best to work for by far.

Again, if you wanna fly the traffic pattern all day in a 172 with a part time student who is flying for recreation, go to an FBO. If you wanna teach multi-engine IFR students who are just as motivated as you to move on with their career, instruct at ATP.

The pay isnt that great, but there is very few flight schools that you are going to make more money at. There are some, but they are few and far between

[BillH]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

The pay isnt that great, but there is very few flight schools that you are going to make more money at. There are some, but they are few and far between

I beg to differ...

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by BillH

I beg to differ...

But we are atp haters (you said one bad thing tisk tisk) so what would we know (where's that darn sarcasm tag)

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

You seem to forget what the original question was! The guy was asking how it was to WORK there, not your opinion/generalization of the quality of instructors at the location you happened to be at.

When I was there, oh so many months ago (not in July-December) most locations were over staffed. You were fighting for flight time. You might be lucky to get 75-100 hours a month. Of which you might get lucky and do some xc time with SE time builder. In addition you are working 7 days a week, no time off, paid like crap. You are a private contractor yet at some locatoins they expect you there from 8am-5pm even if nothing is going on (private contractor?? interesitng words). You are fighting for planes because those on xcs get the planes first due to dispatch taking your planes. You never know what planes you will have, who will have the plane, when you will have a plane and if you get a plane if it will work! Dare I continue on or should I stop there? That's how it was for the 4-5 months Iwas at my location and i know for a fact at other locations.......

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

As for the response about people who work there dont know any better, thats BS. Ive worked for 3 flight schools including ATP, ive trained at 3 different schools as well. ATP was the best to work for by far.

Just had 3-4 of my students call me. Two of which who worked at ATP before leaving for FBO's..... Those two said, "man you were right, these FBO's work environment and life style are 100% better then ATP i'm so glad to be out" (if you want their numbers I'll give them to you). Two others who went straight to FBO's to teach.... Both of which said for the most part "i'm glad I didnt stick around ATP and instruct, i'm much happier here then i'd have been there." oh and that's just 4 of my 30 students I've signed off and still talk to. I've trained at 4 FBOs and ATP..... Honestly the 4 FBOs all in Indiana I'd take any day. All of which flew more hours then I did a month at atp..... All of which also have TWINS and they fly.... One FBO the manager had to fly because he was the only MEI. Flew 400 hours last summer (June-August) all in ME (seminole)

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

Again, if you wanna fly the traffic pattern all day in a 172 with a part time student who is flying for recreation, go to an FBO. If you wanna teach multi-engine IFR students who are just as motivated as you to move on with their career, instruct at ATP.

Motivated? So those part timers who are paying good money out of their paycheck to go flying arent motivated? Wow.... come fly with a Doctor, or an engineer... Its called diversity... A lot to be said about the friendships you make while working at an FBO... the life long friends in may fields... I personally know of lawyers, doctors and engineers I now have as personal friends because of the FBO.... All of which if I need something I can call and get personal and professional advice..... But what's the use in being diverse and enjoying the art of instruction and helping some learn what you love.....

Originally Posted by SIUav8er

The pay isnt that great, but there is very few flight schools that you are going to make more money at. There are some, but they are few and far between

So I just took a quick survey around the Indy Metro area... All FBO's for the most part start off around 23 an hour. Each school also the addition rating you get is a buck extra at the minimum... With just the bare minimum you are making 25 an hour. Most are flying at least 100 hours. That doesnt include paid GROUND instruction. Most are billing from 125-150 worth of instruction (ground, novel concept I know and flight combined) Therefore:

125x$25 is $3125 before taxes
150x$25 is $3750 before taxes
150 a week salary is 600 in addition to flying
$3125+$600= $3725
$3750+$600=$4350

All of the above figures seem like more then 2k? Am I doing the math wrong? However I'll give you these numbers are more accurate in the summer..... and during the winter the flying dies down some.... And would be more reflective of the 2500-3225 range.....and at ATP you are GUARANTEED your $2000! That ATP does have... its a guarnatee 2k no matter how much or little you fly.

Plus places in CA are paying well over 40 an hour and Indy is one of the CHEAPEST cities to fly in... Oh and great thing is a checkride only cos 225-250 here! Another amazing concept! But again what would i know

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by BillH

AND YES, I cut the engine with the fuel cutoff switch, and I even will shut off the RIGHT engine in flight!!! Never could do that at ATP...

Heh, we did that all the time. SO much easier when there wasn't a location CP looking over your shoulder all the time. We also landed on dirt/grass strips (occasionally), flew the Cessna at night and did all kinds of other stuff they probably frown upon these days.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

125x$25 is $3125 before taxes
150x$25 is $3750 before taxes
150 a week salary is 600 in addition to flying
$3125+$600= $3725
$3750+$600=$4350

Please post the names of a few flight schools paying instructors off the street $52,000/year, no contract please. And I assume they hire with a wet CFI ticket? I'd seriously like to know for two reasons.

First, people post those kinds of numbers all the time and never ever ever back up their statements.

Second, if I get furloughed and there are FBOs all over Indiana paying $52k/year, I'm moving.

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by BobDDuck

Heh, we did that all the time. SO much easier when there wasn't a location CP looking over your shoulder all the time. We also landed on dirt/grass strips (occasionally), flew the Cessna at night and did all kinds of other stuff they probably frown upon these days.

That's pretty ballsy, not to mention disappointing, that you'd take that kind of liberty with an aircraft that you didn't own.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Pfly

That's pretty ballsy, not to mention disappointing, that you'd take that kind of liberty with an aircraft that you didn't own.

It's perfectly safe for the airplane.

We did a crossfeed check every runup on the PA-44s at my university. Turn them both off, wait for fuel pressure to drop, turn them to crossfeed make sure it rises, turn them back to off make sure it drops, turn them both to ON make sure it rises. Our chief pilot killed the engine with the fuel selector on my CMEL ride.

I was told the "never touch the fuel selectors" rule (and the "no passengers" rule) at ATP was done after the fatal accident near RDU where both crossfeeds were found selected in the off position. It's a pilot problem, not dangerous to the aircraft. Although since in theory the fuel selectors on ATP's seminoles shouldn't have moved in years, I personally never moved them when I was a CFI there for fear they would get stuck or something.

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by Clocks

It's perfectly safe for the airplane.

We did a crossfeed check every runup on the PA-44s at my university. Turn them both off, wait for fuel pressure to drop, turn them to crossfeed make sure it rises, turn them back to off make sure it drops, turn them both to ON make sure it rises. Our chief pilot killed the engine with the fuel selector on my CMEL ride.

I was told the "never touch the fuel selectors" rule (and the "no passengers" rule) at ATP was done after the fatal accident near RDU where both crossfeeds were found selected in the off position. It's a pilot problem, not dangerous to the aircraft. Although since in theory the fuel selectors on ATP's seminoles shouldn't have moved in years, I personally never moved them when I was a CFI there for fear they would get stuck or something.

The point is, the airplane belongs to someone else, someone who signs your paycheck, and you live by his rules or move on. Just that simple.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Please post the names of a few flight schools paying instructors off the street $52,000/year, no contract please. And I assume they hire with a wet CFI ticket? I'd seriously like to know for two reasons.

First, people post those kinds of numbers all the time and never ever ever back up their statements.

Second, if I get furloughed and there are FBOs all over Indiana paying $52k/year, I'm moving.

As mentioned those are more so summer hours.... But my buddy who is an Instructor at IndyAero billed over 125 a month last summer (April-September). In addition I just spoke with an instructor at Indianapolis Aviation (we have some formers on here from there) who was also already up to 115-125 this month alone (not over). Keep in mind that included ground school instruction, mx flights, flights to pick up airplanes etc.... You arent just instructing all the time. Some part 91 stuff.... However those are the two just here in Indianapolis. Greenwood aviation is here but they are tiny..... not much happening there. Also my buddy just got on in Colorado to do some military stuff... 75k... signed contract... Also lost abuddy to CAPT and he's making 45k...... Heck I think they even have it on their website as that.......I've got numbers for FBO's as well if you really want them.....

Just got off the phone... buddy (career CFI at one of the above FBOs) made 45k last year..... about 1400 dual given....

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Pfly

That's pretty ballsy, not to mention disappointing, that you'd take that kind of liberty with an aircraft that you didn't own.

The fuel shut off is very common..... Most FBO's do that.... Although some have refused to. However when I did my basic training we'd do that and also pull CBs to the landing gear.... IMO it gives you more realistic training to other things that could potentially go wrong and you must check in the event of an emergency.....

[Clocks]

I'll PM you if I get furloughed. Thanks for the info.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I'll PM you if I get furloughed. Thanks for the info.

Also Epic Aviation http://www.epicaviation.com/flight-i...nstructors.htm

I've had a few students go here to instruct..... All again are 100 hours plus a month.... and flying brand new equipment.... and EVB is a great airport to fly into and out of.... Really there are a TON of options out there.... People just need to realize it.