ME Hours? How many really....

[MDT06]

I know 50 FTD, now they other 140 hours, how are they distibuted. Are traffic watch for other students included in the 140 hours? Anything that was surprising as a former student....

Thanks...

[BillH]

Just do this, take the dispatch sheets, LOG EVERY SINGLE FLIGHT you do on X/C. When you are PM, you only count the off/on hours. At the end of your X/C, call up dispatch and say, HEY, You owe me more X/C hours. They will say our records say you have them, you tell them no. They will ask you to show them proof. Fax them the dispatch sheets showing your totals. You'll get all your hours if you do that, if you did not get them already.

I never bothered doing that, I ended up with around 138 hours going by the in/out times every flight AND including the Jet Ride.

[DE727UPS]

"Are traffic watch for other students included in the 140 hours?"

I believe you are referring to logging PIC time as safety pilot from the right seat. This is FAA legal time. It's not a scam and can actually be good time in the overall scheme of things. Depends on how you approach it and your attitude. But, yeah, some of the ME time at ATP is safety pilot. If you think this time is worthless, maybe you should look at training someplace else.

[MDT06]

Is the 10 month better than 90 days? How can a person take in so much information in 90 days and say they actually learn it. I went to college, BA in Finance from IU, almost perfect GPA, but it just seems to me like it is just studying to pass a test, yet you learn something, but do not fully understand everything. Is this the normal case?

DE727UPS, you have a lot of experience, is ATP a good deal? I did numbers for some local FBO's and with the amount of ME time and the CRJ course....the difference is not much and it probably has more of a structure.....What do you think?
Thanks

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by MDT06

DE727UPS, you have a lot of experience, is ATP a good deal? I did numbers for some local FBO's and with the amount of ME time and the CRJ course....the difference is not much and it probably has more of a structure.....What do you think?
Thanks

I walked away with 128 hours of ME. 120 hours PIC. I cant be bothered to go back and look at how many are "safety pilot" ME hours. Probably around 50.

If you look into an FBO and do your cost analysis, that is probably with you renting a ME aircraft by yourself. If you can find someone to go in on it with you and just do some safety pilot time then that can cut down costs big time. The problem is finding someone else to go in on it. The good part though is that you would get to go wherever you want in the plane, and not where a dispatch office tells you.

-Rob

[SpiraMirabilis]

I got away with around 134 hours.

[jtsastre]

132 hours for me. I think I ended up with 5 hours short, and when I asked about them at the end of the XC portion, dispatch said I could use those towards future checkrides. After my checkrides, they said I could use them up after I completed the 90-day program. At the end of the program, they said I can't use them. Pretty much what everyone was saying that ATP was going to do if I still had some hours left from my XC's, BS.

Jtsastre

[Gumps]

"How can a person take in so much information in 90 days and say they actually learn it." -MDT


I'm cheating. I've turned the 90 day program into a 150 day program. When I arrive in a month I'll have all five written exams completed, the Seminole book and ATP supliment commited to memory, I'm also studing for the first check ride. The station manager in ATL (FTY) and the RJ course instructor in JAX both said that the common thread that sucessfull pilots share is that they are prepaired for the progarm(s) when they arrive.

Take what you read on these forums with a grain of salt. There are way too many folks commited to their narrow view (and have PC access!). Check your options and decide for yourself.

[ftyflyboy]

I got a total of 133.7 multi-time.

[NJT916]

129.9...but I put 130 on my application today.

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by NJT916

129.9...but I put 130 on my application today.

You fraud!!!!!

[DE727UPS]

"Take what you read on these forums with a grain of salt. There are way too many folks commited to their narrow view"

Including yours...

MDT, I'm not a fan of going through all those ratings in 90 days. It doesn't give you time for things to sink in. And then you go right into teaching some other poor guy who is just three months behind you. ATP does it. People get through. But I see it as a min standard pilot mill and wouldn't recommend it. Nothing wrong with ATP as a school, it's the 90 day thing I don't like and I'd say the same thing about any other school that is pushing it that fast. I'm also not a fan of RJ courses as a substitute for real life flight experience just to get hired on at min time. Nor, am I a fan a being forced to pay for the Citation ride that's pretty useless.

If you've compared it with your local FBO and the costs are comparable, either you are in a high cost area or you are factoring a lot of multi time. You might want to look at just going through CFI at the FBO with just enough multi time to get a 135 job. You could instruct for nine months, get a 135 freight job, and build your multi time that way. Amflight is only 50 hours multi and there are some with less than that.

Anyhow, good luck with whatever you decide and let us know how it goes.

[Gumps]

Wow...That was cheap. Try this one UPS Yoda, it's just your style.

http://www.panlogic.co.uk/wwf/seagull/game.swf

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Gumps

Wow...That was cheap. Try this one UPS Yoda, it's just your style.

http://www.panlogic.co.uk/wwf/seagull/game.swf

"Cheap"? Certainly didn't read like a cheap shot to me. Looks like he stated his opinion about what he sees as negative aspects of the program, and did it without any personal attacks. I don't have a problem if you disagree with his assessment, but if so why don't you actually address his comments? I'd much rather see an adult discussion about the pros and cons than links to silly seagull poop games. Might actually increase everyone's understanding!

[Gumps]

"...and did it without any personal attacks."- SteveC
I disagree Steve, read the first line after the quote.

Come on Steve, I like the Seagull game, it's funny. UPS Yoda reminds me of a Seagull here on the ATP forums, he flys long distances, craps and takes off again. As for his comments? I don't always completely disagree with the guy. But the 90 day program is a good solution for some people. The ATP vs. FBO thing has been done to death, but here is another angle.

Both are businesses that want our money. But what do they have to offer? ATP brings way more to the table than any FBO I've ever seen. Hands down, no need to go into it.

Is 90 days too quick? Not if the student is dedicated, with no outside distractions. While it's not the local FBO's fault you've got a life, it's still a handicap the ATP student doesn't have. Keep in mind too that most of the material covered in the ratings in the 90 day program is review. The multi engine and instrument ratings are the only ones that present new material and skills. By doing them all close together, you can avoid having to restudy a lot of the same material.

Quality of instruction? Finding a sharp old school instructor is nearly impossible now days. That FBO will hire anybody, read up here about standardization at ATP. I found it encouraging that they wash out instructors, they keep the ones they want, not the ones they "need". Recent experience is sometimes more important than depth when we are talking about the academic side of the rating too.

About the only thing the FBO gives their students is variety. A variety of instructors -each with variety of methods and sometimes conflicting with each other.
A variety of different types of airplanes -for you to learn at your expense.
Yeah, no dispatch to tell you where to go and when to fly -instead you get a paper schedule at the front desk with a variety of pencil marks and erasures for you to try and piece together an instructor and airplane. Hopefully the plane won't be broken and the instructor still employed next Wednesday, otherwise you're hosed.
You'll fly in a variety of weather too, 'cause you're gonna see all four seasons a couple of times each before you finish your ratings at that FBO.

So who is the 90 day gig good for if I don't recommend it to everyone? The pilot who has had a variety of experience already and would like finish the advanced ratings in a structured environment on schedule. They will need to have their funds up front, and have the luxury of being able to take off for a few months too.

I use to hate the way these big outfits sold young people the dream and charged what I too thought was way too much money. The testimonials make me gag. But you know what? By the time you get done at the FBO the months passed and extra hours of flight time you'll pay for will out weigh the up front price at ATP. I wouldn't trade my log book(s) now for the 60 day private course, but I can't see taking any longer than need for the ratings offered in the 90 day program.

[fletchersteel]

You guys all have valid points! ATP is not for everyone, but I think that because of my current situation it will work for me. I have been out of work for several months, laid off. I would have liked to aquire my advanced ratings locally at an FBO, but because of the way loans and finance work, I was only able to get barely enough for the ratings, and zero for living expenses, plus the banks wanted to give me a 18% to 20% interest rate. With ATP, I was given additional funds to help curve my living expenses for my family back at home. Yes, it adds to the cost of the loan, but when interest is compared, the huge, low interest rate loan was less expensive per month than the almost half loan on a much higher interest rate. And, I would have to try and find work while working on my ratings locally to help pay for the living expense. It is frustrating to know, that I have few options, loan wise. My local FBO had only one loan company that they work with, and no other banks would loan unless they, the FBO, was on their "school list". All in all, I will be starting ATP in a few weeks, and no, I don't want to work for the first airline that will hire me. I'd actually like to instruct for awhile. People that skip that important step, miss quite a bit, in my opinion.

[SpiraMirabilis]

When looking at interest rates of 18-20% keep in mind my last months net paycheck after taxes was just a little bit over a thousand dollars. Livin' the dream, baby! :P

[directenterenter]

guess some may think that 6 weeks in a 121 program isn't enough time to "learn" it either, the 121 world seems to disagree

[fletchersteel]

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

When looking at interest rates of 18-20% keep in mind my last months net paycheck after taxes was just a little bit over a thousand dollars. Livin' the dream, baby! :P

Yeah, I know, that 18% scares the heck out of me. I am not sure how it will all end up yet, but I will work things out as they come along. Maybe I could win the powerball, and just buy an airline! Yeah right, that's not the best investment!!! lol But, I suppose I would have to play to win first.

[alloyicon]

Originally Posted by fletchersteel

You guys all have valid points! ATP is not for everyone, but I think that because of my current situation it will work for me. I have been out of work for several months, laid off...

With ATP, I was given additional funds to help curve my living expenses for my family back at home. Yes, it adds to the cost of the loan, but when interest is compared, the huge, low interest rate loan was less expensive per month than the almost half loan on a much higher interest rate...

All in all, I will be starting ATP in a few weeks...

I'd actually like to instruct for awhile. People that skip that important step, miss quite a bit, in my opinion.

While ATP may not be the best option for some of us here. There are those like fletchersteel where ATP makes good sense. We should be supportive and offer positive advice so that fletchsteel can be well prepared for the road.. or sky ahead.

Best of luck!

[knma'91]

Originally Posted by NJT916

129.9...but I put 130 on my application today.

How did you get so much multi time? I finished with about 120?

[SpiraMirabilis]

Sounds like you got ripped off knma. The contract I signed said 140 hours +/- 5. It is weird how it is NEVER + anything and always - at least 5.

Unless you're only counting your PIC time??

[NJT916]

Originally Posted by knma'91

How did you get so much multi time? I finished with about 120?

Going as slow as possible on the climb and cruise on my last few flights to SAC, VGT, and IWA.

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by NJT916

Going as slow as possible on the climb and cruise on my last few flights to SAC, VGT, and IWA.

You left before CFI school too! That alone gets like 7 - 9 hours of ME.

-Rob

[NJT916]

Originally Posted by v1valarob

You left before CFI school too! That alone gets like 7 - 9 hours of ME.

-Rob

Yeah, but it's a toss up since the 182 was broken into and all my stuff was stolen...