CFI from FBO to ATP CFI

[Ducky]

So after researching about jobs at ATP. I had a question up in my mind.

How hard is it that you are a regular CFI at your local FBO and applying to ATP for a CFI job?

Compared to the ACPP grads, would the reg. CFI will have a hard time transitioning to the seminole since they don't go to ATP?

Would it also be harder to apply there too?

[SoonerAv8r]

My understanding is that ATP favors their graduates over outsiders coming in. However It is also my understanding that wherever you took your training, all potential instructors have to attend standardization in Jacksonville, Fl. If you are invited and make it through, It seems like the job is yours. You might just be sitting behind an ATP grad waiting on your choice of training center. I also understand that you had better know the Seminole inside and out.

[Ducky]

true but here it comes to an issue to me about FBO and ATP.

If I want to save money and get the same ratings as ATP but cheaper, FBO is the way to go.

But how about if you want to build time quickly and ME time when you are a CFI?

You see, it is FBO (slow building time) vs ATP (fast building time + ME Time)

What is your guys opinion?

[BajtheJino]

I CFI'd at an FBO and flew almost a hundred hours a month. You can be as fast or slow as you want.

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Ducky

So after researching about jobs at ATP. I had a question up in my mind.

How hard is it that you are a regular CFI at your local FBO and applying to ATP for a CFI job?

Compared to the ACPP grads, would the reg. CFI will have a hard time transitioning to the seminole since they don't go to ATP?

Would it also be harder to apply there too?

As an outsider you wont make a dime and will struggle with money. YOU will make 800 less then someone who was an ACPP "graduate" and you are therefore treated as if you are less valuable to the company as JIM himself had told me and another CFI during my time there this exact thing as we brought it to his attention we were hired at the same pay rate. Anyways you can make more and learn more from an FBO as you would at ATP. Dont let the money in marketing and ads get you thinking its any better (ITS NOT).

[Louie1975]

There is something on the website about 2 year CFIs getting 3000/month(in other words, if you have held a CFI cert. for 2 years therefore being able to train initial CFI applicants)

[pressclick]

Originally Posted by Ducky

You see, it is FBO (slow building time) vs ATP (fast building time + ME Time)

What is your guys opinion?

Well, that pretty much sums it up. Just a matter of deciding what is best for you. To me, the big schools seem almost like cults. They want all you and $60,000. It's hard to turn back after drinking that koolaid.

I read ATP's Seminole supplement which they claim is worth an astounding $30 despite being 46 pages long with lots of spacing and a large font. It detailed the sacred, uber-web advertising hyped standardization and callouts. I Didn't see anything that couldn't be learned by a sharp, proficient pilot with a couple of hours study and a quick dual flight.

Training or teaching at an FBO gives you the flexibility to evaluate and modify your career courses of action each day - a good thing in aviation especially with the economy on the fritz. Obviously, the larger and wealthier the customer base served by the FBO combined with its weather region is going to be a big factor in the # of prospective students/hours flown.

And I think you should know any plane you are going to teach inside and out.

[wrxpilot]

Originally Posted by BajtheJino

I CFI'd at an FBO and flew almost a hundred hours a month. You can be as fast or slow as you want.

I agree... I considered instructing at ATP, but decided against it due to the low pay. I just recently stopped teaching full time at my school (FBO), but when I was it was easy to have a day full of students. Basically you could work far more than I ever wanted to.

[Clocks]

I was an outside CFI (although I did my MEI+II at ATP) and got hired (though I was in and out before the pay differences).

I did it because the other logical choice was my university, which would have been all single engine time and about $500-700/m, versus ATPs $900 (after housing). I also didn't want to pay $8000 for my multiengine time.

Worked out great for me. I went in knowing it was a temporary job, so the low pay and 16 hour days weren't that big of a deal. It was a fun atmosphere and the career students were great to work with. I didn't teach primary students, which I wasn't enthusiastic about, and virtually all my instruction was for multi-engine commercial and instrument ratings, the instrument instruction was invaluable to me in my airline training (about 150 hours of instrument instruction in the seminole, over half my dual given, plus another 130ish hours given in the FTD).

After spending some time chatting with people I went to college with and other former CFIs when I was going through training, I still think ATP offers the most to a short term non-career CFI. It's regular pay and regular work, two things I valued highly (especially knowing I was out in less than 4 months).

Just be ready for the most ridiculous, rudest, put-you-down, we-dont-need-you CFI "standardization", which is still going on to this day.

[kfour]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Just be ready for the most ridiculous, rudest, put-you-down, we-dont-need-you CFI "standardization", which is still going on to this day.

although, looking at some of the standardization threads...that doesnt seem to be the case anymore...

[LoadMasterC141]

Originally Posted by Clocks

Just be ready for the most ridiculous, rudest, put-you-down, we-dont-need-you CFI "standardization", which is still going on to this day.

Out of all of it, that is the the only really bad part to me. Completely senseless and unproductive.

For those of you saying "I can fly a 100 hours a month at my FBO", please share. How much of it is Multi time?

Originally, I wanted to go to ATP for the whole thing. Knowing it was much cheaper to do the FBO route, and not having the kind of cash needed for ATP, I decided to go that way. I had palnned to go to ATP for everything past my commericial and then instruct there. Now that they do not offer a CFI-A course, I'll be going elsewhere and looking to instruct...well I don't know yet!

[Ducky]

argh cant decide cant decide cant decide

FBO route you will be teaching moslty SE with students..not much of a ME time.

Your right mind as well go to ATP?

To sum it up my FBO charges 39 g's for the Pro Program which i will only get

215 hours in Cessna 172s
5 hours in Cessna 182 NavIII with Garmin G1000 avionics
13 hours in Piper PA28R-200 Arrow
23 hours in Piper PA44-180 Seminole
10 hours in Personal Computer-Assisted Flight Training Device
plus materials "cessna pilot kits"

and if I want to build ME hours, thats 10 more g's at the skymates 100-hr ME building program which comes roughly out to 50 something g's.

So the difference will be only 2-3 g's.

ahh im going nuts in deciding now...

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by kfour

although, looking at some of the standardization threads...that doesnt seem to be the case anymore...

It is not as bad an experience as Rob went through, but it is still needlessly harsh from the stories I've heard from former students...especially considering the (lack of) experience of the CFIs in charge.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Ducky

argh cant decide cant decide cant decide

FBO route you will be teaching moslty SE with students..not much of a ME time.

Your right mind as well go to ATP?

To sum it up my FBO charges 39 g's for the Pro Program which i will only get

215 hours in Cessna 172s
5 hours in Cessna 182 NavIII with Garmin G1000 avionics
13 hours in Piper PA28R-200 Arrow
23 hours in Piper PA44-180 Seminole
10 hours in Personal Computer-Assisted Flight Training Device
plus materials "cessna pilot kits"

and if I want to build ME hours, thats 10 more g's at the skymates 100-hr ME building program which comes roughly out to 50 something g's.

So the difference will be only 2-3 g's.

ahh im going nuts in deciding now...

Make sure you speak to former students from that FBO if you haven't already. There is more to being a pilot than how much money you spent and how many hours you have, by which I mean the FBO might be a better value even if it is roughly the same price (also remember 50 hours of ATP's time is in FTDs compared to 10 at your FBO).

[Chewie von Nubbins]

Originally Posted by Ducky

argh cant decide cant decide cant decide

FBO route you will be teaching moslty SE with students..not much of a ME time.

Your right mind as well go to ATP?

To sum it up my FBO charges 39 g's for the Pro Program which i will only get

215 hours in Cessna 172s
5 hours in Cessna 182 NavIII with Garmin G1000 avionics
13 hours in Piper PA28R-200 Arrow
23 hours in Piper PA44-180 Seminole
10 hours in Personal Computer-Assisted Flight Training Device
plus materials "cessna pilot kits"

and if I want to build ME hours, thats 10 more g's at the skymates 100-hr ME building program which comes roughly out to 50 something g's.

So the difference will be only 2-3 g's.

ahh im going nuts in deciding now...

Assuming you will be doing everything part 61, why are you locked in to so much SE time? I ended up with 85 ME total, of which 50 or so was safety pilot with another guy. Then, I took the CMEL as the initial, and the CSEL as an add-on on the same day. I really enjoyed my time doing some awesome X/Cs while working towards the 250 TT for the checkride in a Seminole. The key is finding someone that is wanting to timebuild in the multi and can do at least 4 hours in one clip. You will have to do a 10 hour checkout (at most places). Use these 10 hours to do the PMEL and do the checkride. The CMEL is the exact same ride...but steep turns are to 50 degrees and back to back....no big deal at all.

I did this at Skymates. Think about it. Since the 172's and 152's are the primary trainer there, being able to schedule a 172 (even a week or two in advance) during normal daylight hours and take out on X/C's was almost impossible. And, the average price for a decent 172 is $135 or $140 per hour. The Seminole is $200 per hour and as long as we scheduled everything a week in advance, we could rent the thing at almost any hour of the day...whenever we wanted. And, we did some long X/C's to some out of the way places. I wouldn't change that experience for anything.

[DE727UPS]

"FBO route you will be teaching moslty SE with students..not much of a ME time."

Look at it this way. If you want to get to the shiny jet with min experience and in min time but at max price. ATP is the way.

If you want to build your experience and be a better pilot before you move up the ladder, go the FBO route, CFI until you hit 1200 total, and then you can do IFR 135 to build your multi. In a year and a half you'll not only have your pick of regionals, but you'll have flight experience far superior to your average 500 hour ATP guy. You'll also be less in debt.

The downside is you'll lose some seniority compared to your peers. I think that's a small price to pay. The whole career is such an unplannable (not a word, but I like it) crapshoot, that it really doesn't matter. Seniority is everything, but only once you reach your career goal airline.

[SoonerAv8r]

Ducky,

What ATP location are you considering attending?

[Ducky]

I still havn't decided to go atp yet. But it will be in Houston. KDWH David wayne hooks.

[eclipse]

Clocks,
You are right about most of what you have said. BUT, you are way off on the standardization. I wasnt at any time treated like I was unimportant or in a demeaning way. I was expected to KNOW what I was supposed to teach- sounds reasonable to me. In fact, the importance of the need for aeronautical knowledge and the ability to teach required by Standardization at ATP really does fly into the face of most of what I read on this forum about ATP. By the way, my Stand. instructor was a missionary pilot for years with well over his 135mins, most of it in multis. He was like a coach as well as an evaluation type pilot. Not sure what you mean by low experience and bad treatment. Talk to anyone there now.

ON THE OTHER HAND:
For months I have disagreed with DE727UPS about routing. Why not go straight to the Regionals if they would have me and build senority? But after his last post I have decided I would rather have experience over seniority and I am going to instruct for at least a year then 135 stuff. Cant believe I just wrote that and agreed with him, but come to think of it, i would rather have experience over seniority.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by eclipse

Clocks,
You are right about most of what you have said. BUT, you are way off on the standardization. I wasnt at any time treated like I was unimportant or in a demeaning way. I was expected to KNOW what I was supposed to teach- sounds reasonable to me. In fact, the importance of the need for aeronautical knowledge and the ability to teach required by Standardization at ATP really does fly into the face of most of what I read on this forum about ATP. By the way, my Stand. instructor was a missionary pilot for years with well over his 135mins, most of it in multis. He was like a coach as well as an evaluation type pilot. Not sure what you mean by low experience and bad treatment. Talk to anyone there now.

ON THE OTHER HAND:
For months I have disagreed with DE727UPS about routing. Why not go straight to the Regionals if they would have me and build senority? But after his last post I have decided I would rather have experience over seniority and I am going to instruct for at least a year then 135 stuff. Cant believe I just wrote that and agreed with him, but come to think of it, i would rather have experience over seniority.

Well I'm glad to hear that. Hopefully my follow up post made it clear that was second hand knowledge.