Standardization was much harder than i thought

eclipse · January 17th, 2008, 22:13

This is my first post, but I have been reading at jetcareers for some time, so I dont feel new. Just went through ATP Standardization and it was much different than I thought. It was like taking my MEI and CFII checkrides again but with higher standards. I even had to go through anoral exam that lasted almost 3 hours. I was expected to have lesson plans and to actually teach to students.

If you are preparing to go, here are some words to the wise:

1.They stressed over and over that it was a job interview the whole time. I was constantly evaluated, sometimes I wasnt even having fun

.

2. It has been rumored that they dont care what you know, only that you can fly safe and do all of the manuevers. FALSE. There was a great emphasis on knowledge with tests and scenario based questions. I thought some of it was harder than it had to be actually. Some of the questions actually made me think.

3. You arent really told to show up ready to instruct- so alot of us werent ready. But this is what they seemed to expect. (Some of us felt stupid later because this is what we wanted to do.) We had to know the PTS for all of our ratings and have lesson plans to teach. We also needed to know the manuevers inside and out. You have to know the supplement too. The entry test they give seems to be the same one in the back.

This is how it went:

First few days we had classes on procedures and policy stuff like records and programs and codes for flight training segments- ALL of it was tested the next day or two. We also had Simulator evals broken in to five parts.
Part one was BAI; Part 2 was VFR landings and such;Part three was Instrument flying. They were strict about emergencies in IMC. If you arent IFR current postpone your trip and get current. IF not you might not make it. Part 4 was all of the manuevers and part 5 was ME emergencies.

Then we had oral exams. If we passed and it was grueling, then we flew for a couple of flights with the standardization pilots. It was like an MEI checkride with Instrument approaches only a little tougher. If we passed we flew with Rich or John. I only flew with one of them, but twice cuz I screwed something up but I learned a lot.

By the way, almost half of our 20 person class failed out. We kept hearing that they would rather close down a location than to send out an instructor who wouldnt teach or would ball up an airplane. We thought they were just bluffing, but... only half of us made it.

If you have a specific question I will be happy to answer it best i can.

insidious · January 17th, 2008, 23:52

haha, hope you don't mind answering this.
which airport are you going to be instructing at?
we are in dire need of instructors up here.

turbomax97 · January 18th, 2008, 00:34

Things have been changing for the better at ATP. I've been instructing here for a year, and may very well do it for at least another 6 months.

There was a period where there were some bad apples that made it through, which got back to ATP. Those bad apples were taken care of, and they have really tightened up their standards.

The curriculum is outstanding, and ATP provides you everything you need to succeed. The only variable in this equation is the CFI, which happens to be a major variable. It seems to me, that that is part of the reason standardization is so "brutal." It used to be a scare-fest where you don't really learn anything, but is now a rigid standard to measure cfi's against.

I'm pretty glad that they've gotten stricter, nothing pissed me off more than having one of my career students get a bust because of a new maneuver that the CFI didn't bother/ forgot to teach. That's just unprofessional, pathetic, and a ripoff to the student. The guys coming out of standardization now are definately polished up a bit more than in the past.

I don't really feel sorry for any of the kiddos that didn't make it through - you're a CFI, step up to the plate and come prepared; ATP expects a lot of you, and for obvious reasons. Those that studied hard made it through no problem, and those who slack on learning the material didn't fare so well!

Any career student especially that wants to work at ATP, I'll tell them like I tell my old students who now work for ATP - You have to learn the material to the level of being able to teach it from day one. You can't just memorize material for the sake of regurgitating it - it has to be committed to long term memory, and applied through training.

Anyhoo, hope this gives some insight to you guys wondering what the journey's like - Hope I didn't scare anyone away.

SIUav8er · January 18th, 2008, 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipse

3. You arent really told to show up ready to instruct- so alot of us werent ready. But this is what they seemed to expect. (Some of us felt stupid later because this is what we wanted to do.) We had to know the PTS for all of our ratings and have lesson plans to teach. We also needed to know the manuevers inside and out. You have to know the supplement too. The entry test they give seems to be the same one in the back.

Not to sound like an ass or anything, but...isnt that what you were hired to do? You were hired as an instructor right? It would make sense to me that being hired as a CFI means that you must know how to teach.

So yeah, I dont really see what the big deal is. It should be easy after just getting done with CFI training.

matt152 · January 18th, 2008, 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipse

This is my first post, but I have been reading at jetcareers for some time, so I dont feel new. Just went through ATP Standardization and it was much different than I thought.

Did you go to ATP for the ACPP?

AJL · January 18th, 2008, 14:11

While I think that ATP's goal is to make better instructors to teach their training programs, the standardization program/process needs some more fine tuning.

The program may be called standardization but unfortunately was not very standardized itself. Too much down time without knowing whats next. What one person went through (ie. oral test, sim evals, etc.) would be vastly different between each person. Some would get long orals and grueling sim evals others (including myself) had relatively easy sim and only a 15 min oral test.

While I made it through the program, others did not for various reasons. Some not current, some simply not prepared with the knowledge required of them, among other things.

Best way for success is to have a good attitude going in, be prepared to wait to fly, and lastly and most importantly come prepared and knowledgeable to the level that your certs say you should have. Making excuses for why your not prepared or current etc. will mean an early exit from their training.

Just my .02

SIUav8er · January 18th, 2008, 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJL

While I think that ATP's goal is to make better instructors to teach their training programs, the standardization program/process needs some more fine tuning.

The program may be called standardization but unfortunately was not very standardized itself. Too much down time without knowing whats next. What one person went through (ie. oral test, sim evals, etc.) would be vastly different between each person. Some would get long orals and grueling sim evals others (including myself) had relatively easy sim and only a 15 min oral test.

While I made it through the program, others did not for various reasons. Some not current, some simply not prepared with the knowledge required of them, among other things.

Best way for success is to have a good attitude going in, be prepared to wait to fly, and lastly and most importantly come prepared and knowledgeable to the level that your certs say you should have. Making excuses for why your not prepared or current etc. will mean an early exit from their training.

Just my .02

I completely agree. The whole process does need to be more consistent, BUT if you show up ready to teach the ATP curriculum and have a good attitude,youll be fine. They need you, thats why youre there. You just have to go and play the game. Its worth it. Im happy I instructed for ATP, it was a great experience.

CFII2008 · March 15th, 2008, 10:28

Has anyone who finished Standardization recently have any additional comments?

v1valarob · March 15th, 2008, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFII2008

Has anyone who finished Standardization recently have any additional comments?

They have started to do standardization out of Phoenix now. Kind of strange, a friend of mine headed down there last monday. Ill have to give him a call to see how it went.

-Rob

Ducky · March 15th, 2008, 14:03

eclipse,
based on what you said, Standz is very intense and a long day ahead?

also,

if you don't make it, does that mean a few g's being dropped down the hole for the program that was included in the ACPP price for nothing or ATP pays for your Standz? I forgot.

CFII2008 · March 16th, 2008, 13:11

Do you need to bring you own Approach Plates?

What airport do they train out of in Fla, JAX?

kfour · March 16th, 2008, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFII2008

Do you need to bring you own Approach Plates?

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFII2008

What airport do they train out of in Fla, JAX?

KCRG

v1valarob · March 16th, 2008, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by CFII2008

Do you need to bring you own Approach Plates?

What airport do they train out of in Fla, JAX?

It may have changed now but this was one of the things that pissed me off when I went to standardization.

They wanted us to buy our own approach plate book just so that we could shoot one approach for the final flight, and they wanted us to buy a sectional for the 3 flights we would be doing.

-Rob

kfour · March 17th, 2008, 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1valarob

It may have changed now

See above.

BillH · March 19th, 2008, 17:02

Go in there confident. If your not confident, well probably because you know you don't know the material as well as you would like to.
Don't feel bad if you don't make it, flight schools everywhere need instructors incredibly bad and will treat you as such and usually will pay you a lot more as well.
I am THANKFUL I went to ATP, and VERY happy where I am right now down in Miami.
You need to realize is that the whole point of ATP is to prepare you to be an airline pilot. You WILL be treated like a number, you WILL have to deal with "bs", you WILL be pressured to PERFORM WELL, and if you don't, you will be let go.
Make it or not, your experience there WILL make you better prepared for the reality of being a professional pilot.
As far as a flight school that needs instructors, they act like they have more than they need.
Well it's been a few months since I been there which means things could be completely different...

January 17th, 2008, 22:13	#1
eclipse Newbie Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Richmond Posts: 21	Standardization was much harder than i thought This is my first post, but I have been reading at jetcareers for some time, so I dont feel new. Just went through ATP Standardization and it was much different than I thought. It was like taking my MEI and CFII checkrides again but with higher standards. I even had to go through anoral exam that lasted almost 3 hours. I was expected to have lesson plans and to actually teach to students. If you are preparing to go, here are some words to the wise: 1.They stressed over and over that it was a job interview the whole time. I was constantly evaluated, sometimes I wasnt even having fun. 2. It has been rumored that they dont care what you know, only that you can fly safe and do all of the manuevers. FALSE. There was a great emphasis on knowledge with tests and scenario based questions. I thought some of it was harder than it had to be actually. Some of the questions actually made me think. 3. You arent really told to show up ready to instruct- so alot of us werent ready. But this is what they seemed to expect. (Some of us felt stupid later because this is what we wanted to do.) We had to know the PTS for all of our ratings and have lesson plans to teach. We also needed to know the manuevers inside and out. You have to know the supplement too. The entry test they give seems to be the same one in the back. This is how it went: First few days we had classes on procedures and policy stuff like records and programs and codes for flight training segments- ALL of it was tested the next day or two. We also had Simulator evals broken in to five parts. Part one was BAI; Part 2 was VFR landings and such;Part three was Instrument flying. They were strict about emergencies in IMC. If you arent IFR current postpone your trip and get current. IF not you might not make it. Part 4 was all of the manuevers and part 5 was ME emergencies. Then we had oral exams. If we passed and it was grueling, then we flew for a couple of flights with the standardization pilots. It was like an MEI checkride with Instrument approaches only a little tougher. If we passed we flew with Rich or John. I only flew with one of them, but twice cuz I screwed something up but I learned a lot. By the way, almost half of our 20 person class failed out. We kept hearing that they would rather close down a location than to send out an instructor who wouldnt teach or would ball up an airplane. We thought they were just bluffing, but... only half of us made it. If you have a specific question I will be happy to answer it best i can.

January 17th, 2008, 23:52	#2
insidious Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Cornwall, NY Posts: 58	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought haha, hope you don't mind answering this. which airport are you going to be instructing at? we are in dire need of instructors up here. __________________

January 18th, 2008, 00:34	#3
turbomax97 Junior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Dallas Posts: 261	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought Things have been changing for the better at ATP. I've been instructing here for a year, and may very well do it for at least another 6 months. There was a period where there were some bad apples that made it through, which got back to ATP. Those bad apples were taken care of, and they have really tightened up their standards. The curriculum is outstanding, and ATP provides you everything you need to succeed. The only variable in this equation is the CFI, which happens to be a major variable. It seems to me, that that is part of the reason standardization is so "brutal." It used to be a scare-fest where you don't really learn anything, but is now a rigid standard to measure cfi's against. I'm pretty glad that they've gotten stricter, nothing pissed me off more than having one of my career students get a bust because of a new maneuver that the CFI didn't bother/ forgot to teach. That's just unprofessional, pathetic, and a ripoff to the student. The guys coming out of standardization now are definately polished up a bit more than in the past. I don't really feel sorry for any of the kiddos that didn't make it through - you're a CFI, step up to the plate and come prepared; ATP expects a lot of you, and for obvious reasons. Those that studied hard made it through no problem, and those who slack on learning the material didn't fare so well! Any career student especially that wants to work at ATP, I'll tell them like I tell my old students who now work for ATP - You have to learn the material to the level of being able to teach it from day one. You can't just memorize material for the sake of regurgitating it - it has to be committed to long term memory, and applied through training. Anyhoo, hope this gives some insight to you guys wondering what the journey's like - Hope I didn't scare anyone away.

January 18th, 2008, 14:11	#6
AJL Newbie Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 5	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought While I think that ATP's goal is to make better instructors to teach their training programs, the standardization program/process needs some more fine tuning. The program may be called standardization but unfortunately was not very standardized itself. Too much down time without knowing whats next. What one person went through (ie. oral test, sim evals, etc.) would be vastly different between each person. Some would get long orals and grueling sim evals others (including myself) had relatively easy sim and only a 15 min oral test. While I made it through the program, others did not for various reasons. Some not current, some simply not prepared with the knowledge required of them, among other things. Best way for success is to have a good attitude going in, be prepared to wait to fly, and lastly and most importantly come prepared and knowledgeable to the level that your certs say you should have. Making excuses for why your not prepared or current etc. will mean an early exit from their training. Just my .02

March 15th, 2008, 10:28	#8
CFII2008 Newbie Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: sAN fRANCISCO Posts: 25	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought Has anyone who finished Standardization recently have any additional comments?

March 15th, 2008, 14:03	#10
Ducky Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: @ home and bored Posts: 211	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought eclipse, based on what you said, Standz is very intense and a long day ahead? also, if you don't make it, does that mean a few g's being dropped down the hole for the program that was included in the ACPP price for nothing or ATP pays for your Standz? I forgot. __________________

March 16th, 2008, 13:11	#11
CFII2008 Newbie Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: sAN fRANCISCO Posts: 25	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought Do you need to bring you own Approach Plates? What airport do they train out of in Fla, JAX?

March 19th, 2008, 17:02	#15
BillH Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miami Posts: 280	Re: Standardization was much harder than i thought Go in there confident. If your not confident, well probably because you know you don't know the material as well as you would like to. Don't feel bad if you don't make it, flight schools everywhere need instructors incredibly bad and will treat you as such and usually will pay you a lot more as well. I am THANKFUL I went to ATP, and VERY happy where I am right now down in Miami. You need to realize is that the whole point of ATP is to prepare you to be an airline pilot. You WILL be treated like a number, you WILL have to deal with "bs", you WILL be pressured to PERFORM WELL, and if you don't, you will be let go. Make it or not, your experience there WILL make you better prepared for the reality of being a professional pilot. As far as a flight school that needs instructors, they act like they have more than they need. Well it's been a few months since I been there which means things could be completely different...

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