ATP JAX or RIC?

[insidious]

hey guys - ok this is a little long... didn't plan that, but i get carried away sometimes. you're not binded to any contract or anything; if you start reading, you may bail out at any time.

I'll start with a short intro and a little bit about myself to preface my upcoming questions.
I'm a 22 year old student pilot with 27 hours, and I WAS headed for my sport certificate. I took my first ride in a (Piper L-4 Cub) at Andover-Aeroflex in north Jersey, in september 2006. I've been taking my time with the training, but i've solo'd several times and I've been loving every minute of it. My part time IT job was paying for the training, but I lost that job and have since realized that there's no career for me except in aviation. (yes, i've been interested and fascinated in airplanes and flying for as long as I can remember.)

I started doing a lot of research, and concluded that the airforce, air national guard, navy, etc. were not for me, especially not in a time like this. so i looked into a bunch of schools, and to quickly jump to the present, I've weeded out CAPT, RAA, NPA, FSA, and some others, and I decided on ATP. the bottom line is that it won't work for me unless I'm away from home with less distractions, fully emersed in training for a FEW months. emphasis on the few months, because that was a major selling point for me (girlfriend can't come with me, and I like being home.) so I've decided to change gears at Andover by taking a prep flight this past wednesday in the 172, which was cut a little short due to typical jersey weather, but I'll be flying it a few more times to get a feel for the plane itself, radios/checklists/tri-gear... (though, having a tailwheel endorsement means I can land anything, right?)

anyway, like I said, I want to be away from home so I can fully focus, plus I can't do the 90 day course in trenton. I spoke with Steve (an instructor in trenton) and he said to steer clear of jacksonville, because "corporate is down there." for one thing, I know my experiences with Eric Preistler on the phone have been terrific, but maybe they act differently when recruiting, haha. but, steve suggested I go to Richmond, which was my second choice after JAX. he said that some of the guys down there were really cool, and are ok with taking a few days off... (is that true? I read that in another thread here as well. it would be nice to go home one weekend in the middle of training)

I haven't visited any of their locations other than trenton (which is "the worst looking facility ATP has" according to Steve) and it's tough for me to decide where to go. Jacksonville has newer, nicer, bigger, better equipment, but it's a longer drive from new jersey, and I hear they keep you on a tighter leash than RIC (not that I was REALLY expecting to go home at all.) and richmond is apparently a nice and big facility as well, but mostly older aircraft (do i care that much?) and they don't have an RJ sim? Anyway, I've been reading all over (airlinepilotcentral forums, here at jetcareers, and willflyforfood.com) and I've been soaking up a lot of information, but I wanted to ask around to hopefully get some fresh replies, as maybe some of the location-specific info has changed since the stuff I've been reading was written.

and one more thing... I originally wanted to jump into a regional airline once I finished training and instructing.. but Steve in trenton suggested I go the cargo route. and told me to think and rethink about regionals, cuz initial pay is less than what I expected and it will take quite a while to move up to captain or major airlines... plus I've been liking the cargo idea more and more as I continue to think and read about it. anyone have any insight into that? he mentioned Airnet as a possible route, and he said they start you in a Baron and eventually move you up to a leerjet. some of that info checked out on airnet's website... but if anyone has any advice... I'd love it. what kind of salary can I expect to start off? how many options do I have if I wanted to pursue a cargo company? anything else I should consider?

ok, so hopefully some of you got through most or all of that... and if there's any helpful information you can provide, i'd love to not only read it and use it to my advantage, but i'll also consider giving you a cookie or three. thanks in advance to anyone that can answer some of my questions, and if you can answer a question i forgot to ask, you definitely get a cookie.

[Clocks]

I instructed at RIC for a few months this summer.

To address some of your questions, RIC was a great location when I was there. All of the instructors I worked with have since left for the airlines so the atmosphere may have changed slightly, although I know 3 of the CFIs there and they are great guys. I've also been hearing really good reviews from one of my students who still had some stuff to finish up after I left.

In addition, since I left they now have a manager. Before there was nothing in RIC except for 7 CFIs, and we had a lot of flexibility on scheduling. However I haven't heard anything negative about the manager chatting with my former students, so I doubt he's a scheduling nazi or anything.

RIC has all 79 model seminoles. But that's really irrelevant to the training you receive. I wouldn't base your decision on which models of airplanes they have.

The negative opinions I've heard from JAX (and was exposed to somewhat when I standardized there) is that everything is a lot more strict. It's a much busier location and you have management right there. Based on chatting with students and CFIs there it's just a different and much more hectic atmosphere than a medium sized location that isn't having management staring over their shoulders. As an FYI the Eric you are talking to is no where near the airport, he's in the admin office (which might be why you didn't pick up on anything steve mentioned about JAX. he's also a really really nice guy and great at customer service...unlike some of the management/chiefs at JAX you'll run into). Hopefully someone who worked/trained there can provide some personal experience rather than my brief and 2nd hand knowledge.

I would also encourage you to visit another location (like RIC) if at all possible. Trenton seems to have a sort of negative atmosphere around it (our planes suck, our sims suck, jax sucks, everything sucks), and although I'm sure the CFI up there is perfectly competent one guy's opinion from ATP's smallest location shouldn't be your only source of information.

Lastly I can't provide you with any info about cargo. But you can probably guess at 3-4 year upgrade times a few years from now, which will put your pay easily in the $50+ range your first year as captain at the regional level. I don't know if single pilot piston freight pays that much, and I'm not sure if the pilots live that long anyways

[BillH]

Go to SUA, thank me later.

[kfour]

Originally Posted by BillH

Go to SUA, thank me later.

not if he expects to be done in 3 months....

[insidious]

thanks clocks for writing a whole bunch.
it's starting to sound more and more likely that i'll go to richmond. i really don't care too much what the facility looks like, as long as the instructors are great and i'll get me some quality training.

bill, you suggest stuart eh? that's a hell of a drive for me. i'm driving my pickup truck with my motorcycle in the back. truck gets 17 mpg, bike gets 65, which is why i'm bringing it. plus i'd rather not pay to ship my car/truck/motorcycle/clothes/other stuff, as well as buy a plane ticket to and from.
you'll have to give me a better reason than claiming that i will thank you later.
plus i think i will like the weather better in richmond. i like comfy weather, long pants and a t-shirt... i'm not too fond of the hot and humid climate. and yes, weather plays a big role on my mental state, so it's an important factor.

and kfour, what's up with SUA's ACPP taking longer than 3 months?

anyone else have anything to add about richmond, or possibly raleigh-durham? thanks again for the help guys

edit*
and should i be worried that ATP is not part 141 or VA approved?

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by Clocks

I don't know if single pilot piston freight pays that much, and I'm not sure if the pilots live that long anyways

I know several companies that pay more than what a 3 year FO at any regional makes.

whatever, you might not live long enough to enjoy your salary.

[N826AW]

Originally Posted by insidious

edit*
and should i be worried that ATP is not part 141 or VA approved?

No. A lot of flight schools are Part 61 and not VA approved. IMO it gives the school/instructor more flexibility in teaching.

[insidious]

arright thanks everyone.
looks like i'll be in richmond for ~5 months.
i haven't visited the place, but i'm getting a warm n fuzzy feeling anyway, so i don't think i have to. anyone know what the apartments are like in richmond? airport proximity/size/quality?

someone mentioned some lengthy wait times because richmond is a class c airport... and i was thinking about going to raleigh-durham, but RDU is in class c airspace as well, correct? so i'd have a similar waiting situation whether i'm at RIC or RDU?

ultimately, i think my mind's been made up, regardless of these little details. just gotta call and schedule for january 7th.
anyone else going to richmond currently or starting in january?

[Clocks]

RIC apartments are OK. Some have new furniture, some is older.

[insidious]

wow... better than my current living situation
i'll be perfectly happy there as long as my roommate(s) do(es)n't bother me too much.
do you know the # of miles from there to the airport?
i'll be doing most of it on my motorcycle, so i wouldn't mind if it's 15 miles even, just curious.
thanks for those pictures... i'm calling tomorrow to make my deposit and schedule the class date

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by insidious

wow... better than my current living situation
i'll be perfectly happy there as long as my roommate(s) do(es)n't bother me too much.
do you know the # of miles from there to the airport?
i'll be doing most of it on my motorcycle, so i wouldn't mind if it's 15 miles even, just curious.
thanks for those pictures... i'm calling tomorrow to make my deposit and schedule the class date

google directions apartment to airport

[insidious]

much appreciated. i modified the route to stay off highways. my little 250 ninja starts to vibrate atrociously above 12,000 rpm

[BillH]

Stuart is not that much further from JAX. It is all about the atmosphere. Most people who go to Stuart were told to go there by others. I can't really provide you what your looking for, this is something you can't quantify until after being in the program. Lets just say that if you go to Stuart, then show up to JAX on a X/C, they can usually spot you out as being a "Stuart Guy".

[insidious]

well i knew a guy named stuart and i hated him
and my uncle flew for the navy and lived all over,
and suggested richmond if i was limited to the east coast.
hopefully if i show up in JAX they will spot me out as a "cool guy".

[v1valarob]

Originally Posted by Clocks

RIC apartments are OK. Some have new furniture, some is older.

Hmmm scary... The Riverside apartments kind of look like that. The layout and all....

-Rob

[Direct-enter-enter]

Originally Posted by BillH

Lets just say that if you go to Stuart, then show up to JAX on a X/C, they can usually spot you out as being a "Stuart Guy".

That is not a good thing, especially when it shows in the airplane.

[BillH]

Originally Posted by Direct-enter-enter

That is not a good thing, especially when it shows in the airplane.

Well that is an over generalization of things. Many students are slobs no matter where you go. Stuart is like the Hawaii assignment in ATP, quiet, no white shirts, very nice apartments, hey theres a reason they call it "Club Stuart" So tell me, in JAX, do you have to be at the airport every day at 8am, if your flying or not?

[kfour]

Originally Posted by BillH

So tell me, in JAX, do you have to be at the airport every day at 8am, if your flying or not?

No.

[BillH]

Originally Posted by kfour

No.

So how do you like instructing at JAX so far?

[Direct-enter-enter]

Originally Posted by BillH

So how do you like instructing at JAX so far?

How do you like working at JAX?

[insidious]

so i'll be in richmond, apartment #8009-102 on january 6th.
anyone (clocks, tworotor) know who is/was there? or anything else i should know about it? which building would that be if i was looking down on it?

[Clocks]

I think 8009 is the first building on your left after you pass the admin office building.

And as far as I know I don't know anyone still at RIC, student or CFI.

[Sled14]

Nice, so your gonna finish your private there also or did you get it?

[insidious]

im doing the private in richmond from january 7th to march 7th(ish), and then the acpp from april to july

[bigs]

Good luck with the ATP program at RIC. I have lived in Richmond for the past six years and am a CFI (not doing much flying lately though...have a non-aviation job now) and occasionally fly out of Hanover which is an FBO a few miles to the north of Richmond. Drop me a PM if you have any questions about the local area, and good luck with the program.
Bigs