ACPP W/ INST.

[MikeOH58]

If someone enrolled in ATP's ACPP with an instrument rating, what would happen? Would the pilot skip that step, and would there be a reduction in cost? Or would they still be expected to fly up until a checkride, for additional training?

[Captain_Bob]

ATP has had lot's of guys coming in with their Instrument, Commercial, or yes... even both.

Basically... they don't reduce the cost... but you do get all the flight time and instructor/sim time that was alotted to those ratings... without the need for a checkride.

That basically makes your first month in the program much more relaxing... but also 10 times more productive. You can be working on your commercial manuevers, your right seat instructor manuevers, your II, you can take the plane and the instructor with you to new airspace and shoot tons of different types of approaches in different weather than your used to...

Basically... in theory... you would come out significantly more prepared than someone who went in without the rating. Your comfort level would be higher, you manuevers more precise, and you instruction skills would be more enhanced.

Bob

[fly8slep]

I'm assuming by now you have already spent around 10K for your ratings. Do want to add another 47k?

[MikeOH58]

Originally Posted by fly8slep

I'm assuming by now you have already spent around 10K for your ratings. Do want to add another 47k?

Total so far for the PPL + Inst + 200 TT has been about $8,500. I can definately get the com (single/multi), multi, CFI, CFII and CFMEI for much cheaper if I were to finish through the traditional FBO route, however, there are two big factors that make me lean towards ATP.

I have been flying for four years, and only have what I mentioned above to show. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I have been a full time college student, however, i'm still kicking myself in the arse thinking where I could be. In that time, I have lost a lot of my av knowledge, and I think being fully immersed in aviation, 24/7, for 90 days is that kick in the pants that I need to really get me going.

Another reason ATP interest me so much is because of the multi time. At my local airport, there are no schools renting any twins, nor do I know anyone, or see anyone that ever flies their twin on a regular basis so that I could split costs with them...There may be other ways of getting the multi time, but it would be a large inconvienence...

I'm not sold on ATP yet, and im definately weighing my options, however, from what I have seen, it does look good.

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Total so far for the PPL + Inst + 200 TT has been about $8,500.

That's impossible.. unless you've been paying about 40 bucks an hour for CFI+plane.

[MikeOH58]

My CFI, who happens to be my best friends brother, and I had worked out a deal during my training. Airplane was owned by him, and most of the instruction costs were extremely low, if not waived, because of an "agreement". My family owns a business, and we were equally providing services....

But your right...When you look at it that way, adding in what I just mentioned, I guess it has been more.

Unfortunately, he has taken a job flying a King Air 200 PIC, and is away constantly.

[fly8slep]

Based on the info you have provided now, you'd be crazy to go through ATP. Don't get me wrong, I'm an ACPP student. If you already have 200 hours then just get that commercial and get your CFI rating. Then once you feel ready to apply for a job find some body or even go to a ME school and buy the time. No need to spend 47K. Are you saying you have an ATP location close to you, is that why it's more convenient?

[MikeOH58]

Thing is though, this is 200 hours spread over four and a half years, and i'm totally uncurrent. I got my instrument rating around 190 hours and that was over 6 months ago. Too be honest, I almost feel like im back at stage one. The hours I spent in between getting the private and now were dicking around, flying into airshows, or a quick 35 minute CC to visit my girlfriend at college. I feel like I have lost a lot more than I have learned...Like I said, this isn't definate. I'm going to start asking around my airport about guys with twins, and see if I can work something out. But if not.........Maybe state school wasn't that bad of an idea after all.lol

[fly8slep]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

Thing is though, this is 200 hours spread over four and a half years, and i'm totally uncurrent. I got my instrument rating around 190 hours and that was over 6 months ago.

I'm guessing you flew 10 hours in the last 6 months. That's still not too bad, 6 months is not enough to forget how to fly. I'm sure that if you find a CFI and do a couple of ifr flights you'd get it all back in a few days. I had to stop about 5 months during my PPL. I got it all back in 1 or 2 flights. Just like riding a bike

[MikeOH58]

You really dont want me at ATP huh? What did I ever do to you? lmao.

I'm joking around bro. I appreciate your input. I am definately taking in what you are saying, and I know it is out of trying to help a fellow pilot on JC, make the best career and economical decision, and I appreciate that.

[DE727UPS]

I'd find a local school to get your commercial, then go to ATP, if you think that's best, for your CFI's. Then, maybe you could instruct somewhere (maybe ATP) to build the multi time. That makes more sense to me than doing the 90 day program when you already have 200 hours and an IFR.

[Captain_Bob]

Don watch this...



Mike, you're saying that you're not feeling too comfortable due to your lack of currency. 10 hours in 172/PA44 with an instructor will cure that... Don's suggestion is probably the most economical route with your current TT. The ACPP will certainly give you more experience and vastly enhance your comfort level... but you will pay significantly more for it.

Bob

[DE727UPS]

I wonder if he called ATP, if they would agree with Capt Bob.

[Captain_Bob]

Things that make you go... Hmmmmmm...

[Greg_D]

Bob, I'll tell you something that makes me go hmmmmm.

ATP told me I had too much experience and 1000 hours of bad habits I'd have to unlearn if they accepted me for any of their programs. And that was after I took the advice of a "career pilot coach" on their forums and did exactly what he said by getting my commercial ME and SE knocked out before attending ATP.

I thought seriously about wrting a letter to the owner/owners about how my situation was handled and the complete arrogance I experienced when dealing with ATP's "director of admissions".

[Captain_Bob]

Greg... I'd recommend you do so...

Regarding the advice from one of the coaches... please understand that the advice that he gave you at the time was fairly solid based on the 3 specific routes you were considering... and even you and your CAL friend agreed. That being said... unfortunately the "coaches" aren't always aware of the intentions of ATP regarding stopping or starting programs. The coaches are simply 121 pilots who offer their time and advice... I guess what I'm saying is, don't hold it against him, and you can still use him as a resource... I know him personally and I know he's a great guy.

I know that ATP stopped the "Transition" program right at the time you were sincerely interested in it... and I know from reading your experience that the conversation certainly didn't go how it could have. So based on that... I would recommed you did inform ATP of your bad experience.

Any company needs to know how they can better their service...

Bob

[Greg_D]

Bob, don't get me wrong. I hold nothing at all against my pilot coach. He seems to be a great guy and I believe he gave me good information, based on what he knew. The problem I have is that he apparently wasn't provided the correct information by the company to give me good counseling.

I've got to assume you guys are somehow compensated by ATP for being pilot coaches. If so, it makes me wonder if that lack communication is common within the company.

In the end, this turn of events may have been a blessing in disguise. When I went for my "interview" at ATP I wasn't all that impressed with the instructor's knowledge level. I did have almost 3 times the experience this guy did, but still, his knowledge level regarding the FARs and almost a complete lack of real world IFR flying experience was eye-opening. I can only hope he was the exception rather than the rule.

Anyway, I have managed to find a twin to build my hours in and I actually get to fly all of them this way (at about 1/3 the cost BTW). I've also had the opportunity to go up in the plane with a couple of CAL pilots, one who used to be at XJT. Like my DPE, they both laughed when I told them about the "1000 hours of bad habits to unlearn" statement from ATP.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

Bob, don't get me wrong. I hold nothing at all against my pilot coach. He seems to be a great guy and I believe he gave me good information, based on what he knew. The problem I have is that he apparently wasn't provided the correct information by the company to give me good counseling.

I've got to assume you guys are somehow compensated by ATP for being pilot coaches. If so, it makes me wonder if that lack communication is common within the company.

I agree with Bob, you should write a letter to ATP. The reality is the powers to be at ATP are very very professional and strive to make ATP a top notch academy. Unfortunately as Bob mentioned, sometimes things get misrepresented, so I would definitely write a letter. Jim K. and even the owner Derrick are stand up guys. The "Director of Admissions", well thats another story. Personally I don't know how he landed that job. Anyway, I don't believe career pilot coaches are paid. I could be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember hearing that they volunteer their time to "Pay it Forward" to fellow ATP students and prospective ATP students.

As far as the original poster, well I gave you my opinion. I had two 90 day career pilots that were already instrument rated come through the program. Their main reason for doing the program was to get the multi time, multi IFR experience and of course the CFI ratings. There is nothing wrong with wanting to do that. I totally understood where my students were coming from before with already having their IRA ticket. The program worked out good for them, seeing as how they didn't really have any place local to get twin time etc.

You certainly can't say that anyone wanting to do that is "crazy", its not crazy at all. If you have 200hrs and are PPL/IRA rated, bottom line is you need a multi engine rating, you need at least 100hrs Multi engine time (for most Regionals) and you probably want your CFI's. Nothing wrong with doing that in ATP's career pilot program. I actually preferred those students because the training was much easier, we just had fun and flew IFR cross countries shooting approaches all over the place. I actually got one of my students about 14 hrs of actual instrument time. But you can't call the guy crazy, everyone has their own goals. Just my .02.

[Captain_Bob]

Greg,

The Coaches USED to be instructors with ATP. They are now full-time airline pilots with their own lives and families who give some of their time to the coaches forums in order to provide information to the best of their ability to folks like yourself who are seeking info.

ATP is working on the information channel to the coaches... since for some of us it has been 3+ years since we instructed for ATP we have at times given some information to folks about ATP's programs that has been outdated. But remember... The coaches are not salesmen for ATP... if you ask us about our experiences there... then yes we'll provide you with that information... but if another route is better suited to your situation... we will not hesitate to recommend that route either.

Originally Posted by ATP Website

Our Pilot Career Coaches will provide objective information and guidance unique to your situation. There will be cases where ATP won’t be the right choice for some students, and those students can fully expect to hear that from their Pilot Career Coach.

Our Pilot Career Coaches have made it—they trained at ATP and are now flying for the airlines. At this point in their careers, they want to help other pilots achieve their career goals too. They want an opportunity to assist you in your decision process, and they want to give you the benefit of learning from the valuable experiences of an insider. Their goal is not to sell you on ATP flight training. Their goal is to help future professional pilots with the best guidance possible, irrespective of where students receive their training.

I only re-iterate this to again show that there is a difference in the service you are receiving from the coaches vs. from ATP. ATP has been kind enough to provide us with a means to help others. We can only hope that the person who acts on our advice has a good experience from it.

In your case... it was obvious that it didn't occur. For that... I apologize and you deserve a good laugh at the expense of ATP.

I cannot comment on your specific experience with one of the instructors at ATP... other than to say that there are most likely several current and existing instructors here on JC that will say that it was an exception... One of the things that even folks like Doug, DE727UPS, and many others have said in the past is... "Regardless of the school's reputation... the instructor can make or break your experience."

In other words... You can have a great school and you could get a bad instructor or you can have a bad school, but a great instructor could make it a positive experience.

As you stated though... it may have been a blessing in disguise. It really seems like things are working out for you now and that you are on the path that is working best for you.

Are you looking at XJT? What are you hours now?

Keep flying... and stay safe Greg!

Bob

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

I wonder if he called ATP, if they would agree with Capt Bob.

hahaha!!! no way man, theyre there to SELL programs. ATP is trying to make money after all...lol

[Greg_D]

Bob,

I've got about 1000 total and 50 ME right now. I'm finishing up my CFII soon. Yes, I'm looking at XJT. I will send the letter to ATP, after I get hired by someone.

I do appreciate the advice you and the other coaches provide. There must be something exceptionally good about the place in order for you guys to provide your services for free. That, or you guys are just exceptional yourselves!

[Captain_Bob]

Greg... realistically... once you meet the 100 Multi requirement... I'd throw your App in. You would be competitive with 1000+TT and the majority of your "recent" time being Multi.

I don't want to stop you from getting your II, but if your focus is to get hired at XJT... then get that multi time and then finish your II. Or... better yet... finish your II in the multi!

XJT is really liking folks with 1000+TT right now.

Bob

[Greg_D]

Bob, I should know this already at this point, but here goes....Are they looking for 100 ME total time or 100 ME PIC time? The difference in cost for me at this point is about $2K.

All of my PIC time will be as the sole manipulator of the controls, so no safety pilot loopholes. Although, I have thought of offering someone the opportunity to act as a safety pilot for me and log the time. I'm going to fly as much actual/simulated IMC as I can over the next 50 hours and also try to get in as many approaches as possible.

[Captain_Bob]

It is simply ME TT the way I read it. Now if you took 99 hours to get your ME rating and only got 1 hour of ME PIC for your checkride... then that's probably not gonna work.

Remember too... that there is no safety pilot "loophole"... it is what it is... A federally supported and legal way to build time while building CRM skills at the same time. XJT doesn't have a problem with that and it's still considered PIC time. Again though... everything in moderation... if all your ME time was as the safety pilot... then that's not so good... but if less than 50% is... then you should be golden.

Flying as much actual/simulated IMC as you can while getting the approaches in... is one of the best things you can do while building that time. You are taking the initiative to make that time building "productive". You'll have a better scan, better skills, and have your procedures down pat. That's why having a Safety Pilot can be so handy... it would allow you to spend all the time that you are sole manipulator "under the hood"... and you can be put through your paces on multiple approaches of different varieties and degrees of difficulty.

Hope that helps...

Bob

[CaptainChris87]

Originally Posted by MikeOH58

If someone enrolled in ATP's ACPP with an instrument rating, what would happen? Would the pilot skip that step, and would there be a reduction in cost? Or would they still be expected to fly up until a checkride, for additional training?

your ppl-multi add on checkride, they will make you shoot an approach or so, depending on the examiner. and you still need to build time so youll just be flying around your location and maybe even practicing approaches.