Instructing beyond ATP

[N261ND]

I know ATP hires their own graduates to instruct, but do alot of ATP graduates go instruct elsewhere after their training with ATP? Has anyone gone this route after their training at ATP? Did you feel prepared to instruct elsewhere after training with ATP?

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by N261ND

I know ATP hires their own graduates to instruct, but do alot of ATP graduates go instruct elsewhere after their training with ATP? Has anyone gone this route after their training at ATP? Did you feel prepared to instruct elsewhere after training with ATP?

Very good question and I think you'll find that there is generous amount of ATP grads who don't instruct at ATP and they make out fine.

When I graduated ATP, I was offered a job at a local flight school. I only worked there for a week before I had enough. After training in ATP's structured environment with an emphasis on Professional Aviation, I could not adjust to the kicked back mom and pop style "Lets go putt around in the sky and take people's money" attitude. So I sent my resume to ATP and got the call to instruct there the next day. Best decision I made for my first flying job. Got a generous amount of multi engine time and became a much much better multi engine pilot.

[fly8slep]

I guess it depends on the individual, from what I've heard there are ATP grads that go instruct for the local FBO. Schools are in shortage of CFIs anyways. ATP sets your work hours and you have to be ready 6 days a week 8-5 that's what sucks about it, local FBO you can set your own hours. You still get enough multi even if you don't instruct at ATP and from what I understand you don't have to be an ATP cfi to get the reduced airline mins so if there's better qol at the local FBO why not?

[SoCalAprch]

First off 6 days a week at ATP isn't normal. Plan on more like 7 days a week. However you do get to fly the seminole. I am instructing at another flight acadamy and got all my ratings through ATP and am missing the multis. Im getting 100+ hours a month but it is kind of a big cluster Im flying 152, 172, and warriors. (every now and again I fly a Dutchess) But there is life after ATP if you don't choose to instruct there but most places are going to be less structured and irritating.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Very good question and I think you'll find that there is generous amount of ATP grads who don't instruct at ATP and they make out fine.

When I graduated ATP, I was offered a job at a local flight school. I only worked there for a week before I had enough. After training in ATP's structured environment with an emphasis on Professional Aviation, I could not adjust to the kicked back mom and pop style "Lets go putt around in the sky and take people's money" attitude. So I sent my resume to ATP and got the call to instruct there the next day. Best decision I made for my first flying job. Got a generous amount of multi engine time and became a much much better multi engine pilot.

Sounds like you chose the wrong "mom and pop" school.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Sounds like you chose the wrong "mom and pop" school.

Where I live there aren't many choices for flight schools, and the limited choices there are have aircraft "issues". The flight school I was originally hired at had the best airplanes in the area. Without a doubt they were great, but I couldn't deal with the money hungry attitude that breeds no success in pilots. I can't take a students hard earned money and not teach him to get certified in a reasonable amount of time. Its like highway robbery.

The other school choices weren't bad as far as instructing, because they were 141 schools, but I wouldn't fly those airplanes. Looks alone is enough to keep me away.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Where I live there aren't many choices for flight schools, and the limited choices there are have aircraft "issues". The flight school I was originally hired at had the best airplanes in the area. Without a doubt they were great, but I couldn't deal with the money hungry attitude that breeds no success in pilots. I can't take a students hard earned money and not teach him to get certified in a reasonable amount of time. Its like highway robbery.

The other school choices weren't bad as far as instructing, because they were 141 schools, but I wouldn't fly those airplanes. Looks alone is enough to keep me away.

Oh. I must've read ATP's website wrong. It looked like they charged $6790 for a multi add on, 15 hours multi PIC, and an MEI rating, with no more than 25 hours of multi gained on the other side.

[UND_Flyer]

Originally Posted by N261ND

I know ATP hires their own graduates to instruct, but do alot of ATP graduates go instruct elsewhere after their training with ATP? Has anyone gone this route after their training at ATP? Did you feel prepared to instruct elsewhere after training with ATP?

I instructed elesewhere after ATP. I work with 2 other former ATP guys.

[Berkut]

I believe we had a few at MTSU back in the day. I never heard any complaints about them.

[Van_Hoolio]

I instructed elsewhere after going through ATP's 90-day program. It wasn't easy though. I tried working at a place back home and that didn't work out so well (got fired). I then found a good place to work, but had to move 1000 miles to get out there. I did what I had to do and went. And then I got lucky and we ended up getting a twin on leaseback so I was able to get some current multi time. I was hired by a regional with 900/180 and without doing a regional jet course.

I had a 100% pass rate for checkrides and only had one military student bust a 141 stage check out of about 30 sent. I'm sure some bad ones get through, but ATP will prepare you to be a decent instructor. The only way to be a good and great instructor is to get out there and do it. I feel sorry for the people who got my first few hours of dual given!

Instructing for ATP is probably the best option for most people though, despite the low pay. It is very difficult to find a flight school where everything needed to progress a pilot's career will come together so easily. Really, how many flight schools out there will put a brand new CFI in a multi (or even have a multi to begin with)? Of those, how many will fly safe well-maintained airplanes and have good ownership and management? How many will have a steady flow of students with the money to pay for that expensive twin time? How many will be located anywhere near where you live?

"Get your MEI and instruct" is a lot easier said than done. That's just what I did, but I know that I'm very lucky to be in the position I'm in.

Mike

[fly8slep]

Yea you can go but don't expect to instruct multi at the local FBO. At least at my local airport it used to be that only the senior CFIs go to touch the Seminole.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Oh. I must've read ATP's website wrong. It looked like they charged $6790 for a multi add on, 15 hours multi PIC, and an MEI rating, with no more than 25 hours of multi gained on the other side.

Every flight school is in the business to make money, ATP is no exception. But the difference at ATP is, you get what you pay for at the quoted price in the quoted time frame. I prepped and signed off more then a few MEI 15hr guys and one girl. They all got their ticket, learned a whole lot and were very happy with the program. It saved them money and got their MEI in a week. Where else can you do that for $6790 with a well maintained, GPS equipped fleet available at over 25 locations?

I'm not a spokesmen for ATP, not by a long shot, but of all of the students I signed off through the various programs, from Private multi add-on right through MEI, not a single one walked away unsatisfied and out of them, more then half wish they trained at ATP from the start.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Every flight school is in the business to make money, ATP is no exception. But the difference at ATP is, you get what you pay for at the quoted price in the quoted time frame. I prepped and signed off more then a few MEI 15hr guys and one girl. They all got their ticket, learned a whole lot and were very happy with the program. It saved them money and got their MEI in a week. Where else can you do that for $6790 with a well maintained, GPS equipped fleet available at over 25 locations?

I'm not a spokesmen for ATP, not by a long shot, but of all of the students I signed off through the various programs, from Private multi add-on right through MEI, not a single one walked away unsatisfied and out of them, more then half wish they trained at ATP from the start.

No doubt ATP delivers what it advertises.

In my opinion though, most ATPers probably didn't do enough research.

It saved them money and got their MEI in a week.

Plenty of cheaper places to do it in that time-frame with just as much quality.

Where else can you do that for $6790 with a well maintained, GPS equipped fleet

Plenty, for FAR less money.

available at over 25 locations?

That's where ATP's name recognition does itself a service. People know they can go to an ATP about anywhere, and that's a smart move by ATP.

I have NO beef with ATP, except for their price. I've heard enough around these forums to learn they give quality training. I'm just saying, ATP seems to be an easy out for a great many people.

Can't seem to break away from family or work to get the job done at an FBO? Go to ATP!

Don't wanna bother with calling around the country to find a good, inexpensive flight schools? Go to ATP!

I'll admit it - advertising works. I thought about ATP. And maybe $6790 doesn't sound to different from $5000 to some people... and maybe 25 hours isn't much different from 35 hours to some people... but for the people who want to get the most bang for their buck, it matters.

One last thing... say you aren't a super star student and can't get your multi - add on in 8 1/2 hours? ATP charges you $300 an hour for extra training!!! Doesn't that seem a little wrong to you?

[Ian J]

Caveat to above post:

I know there are certain people who have certain life situations where going to an ATP-type place makes the most sense.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

Caveat to above post:

I know there are certain people who have certain life situations where going to an ATP-type place makes the most sense.

You absolutely have some great points! I'm not saying ATP is the golden rule of flight schools. I do think the Career Pilot Program is bit expensive, I think its $44,995 now. It was $37,995 when I did it. Not a whole heck of a lot difference, but for the training and multi time I got, I thought it was a great deal compared to the mega bucks other places like, DCA and RAA wanted. I may have paid slightly more at ATP compared to a few other schools, but in no way did I ever feel like ATP short changed me on what I was getting. I wasn't taught just to pass a checkride, I received very very good training from my instructors, which is what I have tried to do with my students.

The short term programs are tough, no doubt. You have to come prepared. But I only had 3 students bust a checkride. 1 was a career pilot that just made a goof, the other 2 were ATP guys who were just horrible, but insisted they keep going and try anyway. If you can't fly a two engine ILS approach to mins, you're not going to pass the ATP checkride with a single engine ILS in 4 hrs of flight time. I tried to tell them that, but they found out the hard way with a pink slip. I believe they tell you that before you sign up for the ATP, the MEI or Commercial multi add-on, that you need to be IFR current.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Airdale

You absolutely have some great points! I'm not saying ATP is the golden rule of flight schools. I do think the Career Pilot Program is bit expensive, I think its $44,995 now. It was $37,995 when I did it. Not a whole heck of a lot difference, but for the training and multi time I got, I thought it was a great deal compared to the mega bucks other places like, DCA and RAA wanted. I may have paid slightly more at ATP compared to a few other schools, but in no way did I ever feel like ATP short changed me on what I was getting. I wasn't taught just to pass a checkride, I received very very good training from my instructors, which is what I have tried to do with my students.

The short term programs are tough, no doubt. You have to come prepared. But I only had 3 students bust a checkride. 1 was a career pilot that just made a goof, the other 2 were ATP guys who were just horrible, but insisted they keep going and try anyway. If you can't fly a two engine ILS approach to mins, you're not going to pass the ATP checkride with a single engine ILS in 4 hrs of flight time. I tried to tell them that, but they found out the hard way with a pink slip. I believe they tell you that before you sign up for the ATP, the MEI or Commercial multi add-on, that you need to be IFR current.

I'll agree, you can't beat the guaranteed multi at ATP, especially if you decide to instruct there. Makes it worth it for a good many student.

I'll admit... I'm biased on two things - money for training and overall experience.

I believe in getting the most quality training at the cheapest price. And I believe that the multi time should be high caliber. I'm a fan of the local, properly researched schools for the ratings, and CFI-ing/freight for the experience.

Knowing that many local schools can't offer multi instruction to new instructors and knowing that some people's situations could make freight flying unmanageable, perhaps the ATPs of the world can do some good for some people.

[Captain_Bob]

Chinook...

You make some great points and you probably already realize this... but I didn't see you reference it when you were making your response.

But... the cost for the CFI course is not just soley for your MEI... It also includes your MEII and CFI/SE, and said ground instruction for each.

Bob

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Chinook...

You make some great points and you probably already realize this... but I didn't see you reference it when you were making your response.

But... the cost for the CFI course is not just soley for your MEI... It also includes your MEII and CFI/SE, and said ground instruction for each.

Bob

I'm just reading their website:

$2795

ATP's multi-engine rating program adds multi-engine instrument privileges to your existing Private or Commercial Pilot Certificate. All necessary ground and flight instruction required by the Multi-Engine Practical Test Standards is included. This 4 day course provides up to 8.5 hours of flight training and the use of the aircraft for the checkride.

$3995

ATP's multi-engine instructor rating program adds multi-engine privileges to your existing Certified Flight Instructor (CFI) Certificate. This program provides all necessary ground and flight instruction for tasks required by the Multi-Engine Instructor Practical Test Standards.
This program provides the low multi-engine experience pilot with the multi-engine time necessary to meet the MEI flight time requirement of 15 hours multi-PIC.

$2795 + $3995 = $6790

These are the CFI courses they seem to offer:


CFI Initial ME, SE, & Inst. 14 Days · $5,995
CFI Multi (MEI) 2 Days · $1,795
CFI Multi (MEI) & Instrument (II) 5 Days · $2,795

Plus they have a the MEI - 15 hour I quotes above, and an MEII.

They all appear to be separate courses for separate prices.

[Snuggle]

Don't forget the OTHER costs. I'm about to head down to JAX for the CFI program. $6995 is their price (I lack the 15 PIC in twin). I live quite far from JAX so you gotta add in plane ticket , living expense while I'm down there (food, housing, etc) , plus the $1200 - $1500 for examiner fees. All of that really adds up.
To be honest I looked into all my other options, but where I live and the costs vs opportunity costs.. I made the decision to go with ATP. My goal is to get my certs and hopefully land a job with ATP. Then I'd like to build my time and apply to Expressjet. Anyway, back to studying for me.


edit: Oops I just saw your post , all my costs I am talking about entire CFI program, CFI, CFII, MEI.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

$2795 + $3995 = $6790

Ahhhh... I see where we are differeing now...

I was thinking about the Total Instructor program for $6995 (if you don't have the requisite Multi PIC time) that includes the MEI, II, and the CFI-SE...

CFI Intial ME, SE, & Instrument 14 Days - $6,995

Bob

[Ian J]

All I'm saying is that I personally would like to know what the per hour cost is for any flight training program.

For example, the 15 hour MEI PIC program for 3995 works out to 266.33 an hour. A little high, don't you think? I could rent a helicopter AND an instructor for that price.

And also, that doesn't include examiner's fees.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

All I'm saying is that I personally would like to know what the per hour cost is for any flight training program.

For example, the 15 hour MEI PIC program for 3995 works out to 266.33 an hour. A little high, don't you think? I could rent a helicopter for that price.

And also, that doesn't include examiner's fees.

That's not incredibly high for the type of equipment that ATP uses... in addition that price includes UNLIMITED ground instruction and full use of the FTD's...

Bob

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

That's not incredibly high for the type of equipment that ATP uses... in addition that price includes UNLIMITED ground instruction and full use of the FTD's...

Bob

I guess its just a difference of opinion at this point.

Type of equipment... refurbed seminoles with Garmin GPS's and HSI's, right? Hey, that's great... sounds like great equipment, no doubt. You can still still get the same stuff at much lower prices elsewhere.

Unlimited ground - that's a great deal. But how much ground do you really need since you already have your initial CFI, all the ATP supplements and study guides, and whatever gouges are out there?

FTDs - That actually sounds pretty good!

Plus, for this specific program - how many hours of the 15 PIC is the applicant actually solo? Hopefully, quite a bit. And if so, a $266 price is outrageous!

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Snuggle

why would you want to solo those 15 PIC ? If you have a multi rating why not practice maneuvers for the CFI ride?? Get used to doing them in the right seat with an instructor in the left.

just a question.. Bob could you shed some light on that? I'm not expecting to do any solo flights down there.

To get rid of that crutch in the other seat is why. Do it on your own for 13 or so hours, then practice with an instructor for 2. After you already have an initial CFI, and a multi comm, how much instruction do you need?

EDIT: It seems Snuggle deleted his post?
EDIT2: Got it, Snuggle.

[Snuggle]

sorry about that chinook I misread your post. That's why I deleted mine. I was confused about which CFI program you were talking about until I read it again. I thought you meant the total CFI program. My mistake.