Logging Time

[Asta]

Can someone advise how you log the time you earn during the ACPP, which ATP breaks down as follows:

200 Hours Logged Time
190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks
Citation Jet Transition
50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
10 Hours Single-Engine Time

So you earn 200 hours, 190 of which are multi and 10 are single. Of the multi time, 50 hours are in the sim and 140 are in the air, correct? How is the sim time logged -- does it all count as part of your TT? And do all 190 hours of mult time count as log-able multi time to meet employers' minimums?

Also, does anyone know how much of this time is actual instrument? How much is night?

I also read elsewhere on this board that some of the in-air multi time is gathered while acting as a safety pilot; how is this logged? Actual? PIC?

[DE727UPS]

"sim time logged -- does it all count as part of your TT"

No, sim time never counts as flight time. It's really FTD time, anyways. There should be a seperate column in logbooks for sim time. Never put it in the total time column cause that's assumed to be, or says, total flight time.

"do all 190 hours of mult time count as log-able multi time to meet employers' minimums"

Any employer who is looking for x amount of multi time is looking for that to be "flight time", at least, so you can subtract the FTD/sim time. Some (maybe all) of the cross country time uses the FAA loophole of allowing two guys to log PIC multi at the same time, one as safety pilot. I've heard there are a few outfits that don't consider this time towards their total multi engine time requirements.

"Also, does anyone know how much of this time is actual instrument?"

That's pretty hard to predict as how can you know when you'll encounter IMC. Anyhow, the safety pilot loophole goes out the window in IMC as you don't need a safety pilot for that. So, you'd actually be looking to avoid IMC during the XC phase, I would think.

"I also read elsewhere on this board that some of the in-air multi time is gathered while acting as a safety pilot; how is this logged? Actual? PIC?"

See above. The safety pilot is logging it as PIC multi and the sole manipulator is logging it as PIC multi but has to note the safety pilots name in his logbook. Again, any time in actual you can't use the safety pilot rule.

[Captain_Bob]

Asta

DE727 hit the main points...

Here's a bit more:

Out of the 200 "logged" hours here's the breakdown.

50 hours are in a multi-engine FTD "Flight Training Device"... These hours are logged in your logbook under the SIM/FTD and Dual Received columns.

140+/- hours are Multi Engine time in the Seminole and Jet. Here is a further breakdown of those hours as follows:

6-7 hours will be logged under the Multi-Engine, Dual Received, and Total Time columns since this will be your hours for training for your Multi rating.

3 hours will be in the Citation Jet for your High Altitude and High Perfomance Endorsements. You'll log this time under Multi, Dual Received, and Total Time.

The remaining hours will be logged as PIC time in the Seminole. You'll log those hours under the Multi-Engine, PIC, and Total Time columns.

Of those remaining hours... 75 will be part of the XC phase of the program in which half (37 or so) of those hours will be logged as Safety Pilot as well as PIC, Multi, and Total Time.

In addition... when and where applicable, you will log appropriately under the Night, Actual Instrument, Simulated Instrument (hood), and Cross Country columns.

The remaining 10 hours will be in the Cessna 172 for your SE Commercial and SE CFI add-ons. Those will be PIC as well since you will already have your SE rating.

Bob

[Asta]

Belated reply . . . and forgive me, but basically ATP is saying you get to log 200 hours, but as DE says you really need to subtract the 50 hours derived from the FTD training: i.e., you can "log" them but they don't count toward your TT.

That kind of stinks. I have 125 TT now and I was supposing I would leave ATP with 325 TT and 190 ME, but it seems I will only leave with 275 TT and 140 ME.

Sorry to fixate on this, but when an employer is looking for 500 TT/200 ME minimum, they are not going to include that FTD time either, are they?

Seems kind of funky for ATP to say that this time is loggable, inferring that it counts as real time.

[Captain_Bob]

Well... it is certainly all "loggable" and "real" time. No question in that.

The issue you are having is that the time logged is not the time you want it to be. Just as logging glider time wouldn't help you meet your goals right now either.

At this point in time in the industry... the thing with ATP is that successfully completing ATP's program practically guarantees you an instructor slot with them (wasn't always the case). That said... You'll have more multi-time within 6 months of instructing there than you could have imagined... and you'll be getting paid a decent wage for it to. Therein lies the overall benefit in my opinion. In addition to them having the most airline agreements out of any other flight school.

However... I do believe that the above Logged Time Outline could be changed to be less vague and more specific...

Bob

[Ian J]

So they really can't guarantee that 75 hours XC time, right? Surely you're bound to hit some actual at some point and the safety pilot loses out on the time. When that happens do they get some money back? Or do they get allotted more hours?

[Captain_Bob]

They actually get alloted more time.

The dispatchers are aware of the weather conditions for most all flights... so when you call them up to say that you got .5 actual on that last flight... they then log it as such for you on your flight time record.

Most likely... everyone is going to hit some IMC... but the dispatchers likely won't be sending you out on a XC pairing that will be solid IMC for 3+ hours.

Bob

[Ian J]

Makes sense - good policy.

It does kinda suck though that with safety pilot stuff you're actually discouraged from getting IMC time.

[v1valarob]

I started the program with the 85hrs TT and I finished with:

224hrs Total Time (Does NOT include sim)
129ME hrs

I only got 1.6 hours of actual during the whole program, being out in California during the summer there was NEVER IMC. However the guys on the east coast log ALOT more actual time.

-Rob

[Asta]

thanks, fellas -- after a year of hemming and hawing i'm thinking of getting this done, perhaps starting in january, so i just want to make sure i have my facts straight.