Citizenship

[Allbert]

Whats the latest on the citizenship requirements? I was planning
(as a non US citizen) multi rating and/or CFI courses with a view to possible
employment.

1. Does ATP hire non-citizens for instructor positions?
2. Which courses are non-citizens eligible for.

I note on the web site the pre-requisite for some courses specifies US citizenship however it also refers to procedures for non-citizens thus implying they do allow TSA certified non citizens to enrol.

[Varig_777]

According to one person I spoke to at ATP a few months back they don't participate in the Alien Flight School program.

That means that anybody who is not an American citizen is not eligible for training.

Didn't make much sense to me, but now I am actually glad I didn't go to ATP.

Nothing against their program at all or those who train there...but at my flight school there are quite a few instructors who were ATP students and all agree that ATP prepares you to pass a checkride as opposed to actually teaching you how to be a pilot.

Apparently they run you through a gouge of how your checkride is going to be and nothing else outside of that. Again, this is all information I received through ex- ATP students who are now instructors at my flight school.

As for me, I am nearing the end of my Commercial training and by the end March will have my CFI-I. At the end I will have spent nearly half of what I would have spent at ATP. Sure, not as much multi-time but then again there is no rush for all that multi time so quick, for me anyways.

Oh, and a note: You only need to register with the Alien Flight School program for Private, Instrument, and Multi ratings. Commercial and CFI ratings don't require AFS registration. And yes, you will need to re-apply for each of those ratings, but you will only need to be fingerprinted once.

-Good luck!

[Allbert]

Yes Varig I have been in similar schools, you learn just what you need to get through check rides and they do it quick. I know what you mean. I have already been through the protracted and complicated process for alien
flight training for the multi at another school but have not yet done the training. I dont know if there is any scope to transfer approval to another school but probably not, I assume they would make you reapply and send another fee for the new school.

[Varig_777]

Yes, you would need to reapply and pay the fee for each school and each certificate. The only thing that carries over are your fingerprints....you won't need to do that again.

Look into FBOs in your area and try to find one with a good reputation. It may be better for you than ATP all together.

[Heath]

Originally Posted by Varig_777

According to one person I spoke to at ATP a few months back they don't participate in the Alien Flight School program.

That means that anybody who is not an American citizen is not eligible for training.

Didn't make much sense to me, but now I am actually glad I didn't go to ATP.

Nothing against their program at all or those who train there...but at my flight school there are quite a few instructors who were ATP students and all agree that ATP prepares you to pass a checkride as opposed to actually teaching you how to be a pilot.

Apparently they run you through a gouge of how your checkride is going to be and nothing else outside of that. Again, this is all information I received through ex- ATP students who are now instructors at my flight school.

As for me, I am nearing the end of my Commercial training and by the end March will have my CFI-I. At the end I will have spent nearly half of what I would have spent at ATP. Sure, not as much multi-time but then again there is no rush for all that multi time so quick, for me anyways.

Oh, and a note: You only need to register with the Alien Flight School program for Private, Instrument, and Multi ratings. Commercial and CFI ratings don't require AFS registration. And yes, you will need to re-apply for each of those ratings, but you will only need to be fingerprinted once.

-Good luck!

First off, it may have changed since then, but back in '05 when I instructed there we accepted foreign students with FAA approval for flight training.

Second, as a former student and instructor, I can whole-heartedly say that your notion of teaching to checkrides is poppy-cock. I have heard of it, but it was not my experience, nor did I see it happening around me with others. Sure, we gouged you for upcoming checkrides, but the instruction was based on all the knowledge for the rating, not just the checkride.

That being said, ATP is self-study based. So you are expected to read and learn a lot on your own, coming to the instructor with questions. That's just the nature of the program, and how you can get through it in 90 days. If you're not into self study and prefer to be spoon-fed, ATP is not the place for you.

[SpiraMirabilis]

I was never really trained to a gouge either. Certainly, my instructors gave me a gouge about a week prior to the checkride but this was after receiving training on everything in the PTS.

[SDpilot]

Same for me at ATP... my instructor never even gave me gouges. We would just work straight out of the PTS. If you know the PTS, you'll pass your checkride. I think gouges can be good sometimes, but I think if someone studies without a gouge their knowledge of the subject will be much more thorough, imo.

[cre8flyer]

What aspect of being a good pilot is not covered by the PTS?

[SpiraMirabilis]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

What aspect of being a good pilot is not covered by the PTS?

Experience and common sense

[Tram]

Originally Posted by Varig_777

Nothing against their program at all or those who train there...but at my flight school there are quite a few instructors who were ATP students and all agree that ATP prepares you to pass a checkride as opposed to actually teaching you how to be a pilot.

That's a pretty hefty load of Bravo Sierra..

I know my students didn't learn the check ride profile only.. Did I run through a mock check ride with them the day or so before the ride? Of course, did they learn alot more than just the gouge? No doubt..

My instructors wouldn't give me the gouge.. If I found it on my own, fine.. My primary instructor had this saying: "Who cares what he makes you do, you'll be ready for anything..." and that is the level he taught me to..

Originally Posted by Varig_777

Apparently they run you through a gouge of how your checkride is going to be and nothing else outside of that. Again, this is all information I received through ex- ATP students who are now instructors at my flight school.

Just curious, did they try and get a job at ATP after they did the program?

[Tram]

Originally Posted by cre8flyer

What aspect of being a good pilot is not covered by the PTS?

Wow.. If you think the PTS makes you a good pilot, you have another think coming..

Flying to the level of the PTS is bare minimum flying..



Oooh and to answer the original question:

ATP doesn't do foreign nationals anymore... You have to have a US Passport to get training and as a foreign national, you cannot get a US Passport..

I had one of the last few "ferrners" we had..

[Allbert]

Thanks for the responses. The web site states that a "Valid, Unexpired United States Passport" is required for the multi however it also states that non citizens should contact ATP to begin the TSA checks.

In regards to the various CFI courses it does not mention the matter of
citizenship. This implies to me that they accept non citizens for both courses or have they not altered the web site to reflect a policy change.

I raise the question because I did not yet receive a response from ATP to my e with a similar query and secondly comments that I have heard, reflected in the responses above, indicate that ATP policy may be at variance with the implication on the web site that non citizens may enrol in these courses.

Also any first hand knowledge anyone on non citizens being employed as instructors at ATP.

Thank you from Allbert.

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by Allbert

Thanks for the responses. The web site states that a "Valid, Unexpired United States Passport" is required for the multi however it also states that non citizens should contact ATP to begin the TSA checks.

In regards to the various CFI courses it does not mention the matter of
citizenship. This implies to me that they accept non citizens for both courses or have they not altered the web site to reflect a policy change.

I raise the question because I did not yet receive a response from ATP to my e with a similar query and secondly comments that I have heard, reflected in the responses above, indicate that ATP policy may be at variance with the implication on the web site that non citizens may enrol in these courses.

Also any first hand knowledge anyone on non citizens being employed as instructors at ATP.

Thank you from Allbert.

Basically, you will need to be a US citizen to enroll in any program involving any initial Private, Multi-Engine, or Instrument training. Same goes for the RJ Standards course. The background check process has become quite onerous and we no longer participate for that reason.

Foreign students already holding Commercial Multi/Instrument ratings can participate in CFI classes because there is no training leading to Private, Multi or Instrument ratings.

At this time, all instructors must be US citizens.

Hope this helps.

[MAS]

I took ATP training and checkride with ALL-ATP in 2003.
I am not a US citizen, and had no hassle.
The training was purely towards the checkride, the instructor even referred to it as the "the paperroute".
Maybe the CPL and IR training are different, but the ATP ride was nothing new.
I might add that my instructor (for the two flights) was very professional, very low hour and from Texas I believe - cute gal she was...

[Pfly]

Originally Posted by MAS

I took ATP training and checkride with ALL-ATP in 2003.
I am not a US citizen, and had no hassle.

As well you shouldn't have. If you are already Multi Engine rated, there is no requirement for you to be a citizen or subject yourself to a background check for ATP training. Just initial private, multi engine, instrument, or A/C more than 12,500 lbs.

[SIUav8er]

Originally Posted by Varig_777

Apparently they run you through a gouge of how your checkride is going to be and nothing else outside of that. Again, this is all information I received through ex- ATP students who are now instructors at my flight school.

Thats funny... those "ex ATP" students are now instructing at your flight school. Even thought they learned nothing but how to pass checkrides at ATP. lol

[Allbert]

Pfly - Thanks for your responses and getting back to my original query. I had been planning for some time to attend ATP to get my CFI current again and complete the MEI with a view to applying for an instructor position.

It did not occur to me until recently that non citizenship may preclude me instructing at some schools. I was aware that some airlines require employees be citizens but I had unfortunately assumed that permanent residency would be sufficient for instructing.

It is disappointing to have to change plans but at least it appears there are quite a few open instructor positions around - at least from what I am seeing on JC forums. I dont appear to have received a response yet from ATP to my original question on this matter.

[TheAlchemist]

As far as I know the Airlines cannot discriminate against color of skin, origin, religion and so forth..I think I read about it somewhere here in this forum...my guess is If you are legal to work in the US it shouldn't be a problem.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

[S.T.Aviator]

Originally Posted by Varig_777

According to one person I spoke to at ATP a few months back they don't participate in the Alien Flight School program.

That means that anybody who is not an American citizen is not eligible for training.

Didn't make much sense to me, but now I am actually glad I didn't go to ATP.

Nothing against their program at all or those who train there...but at my flight school there are quite a few instructors who were ATP students and all agree that ATP prepares you to pass a checkride as opposed to actually teaching you how to be a pilot.

Apparently they run you through a gouge of how your checkride is going to be and nothing else outside of that. Again, this is all information I received through ex- ATP students who are now instructors at my flight school.

As for me, I am nearing the end of my Commercial training and by the end March will have my CFI-I. At the end I will have spent nearly half of what I would have spent at ATP. Sure, not as much multi-time but then again there is no rush for all that multi time so quick, for me anyways.

Oh, and a note: You only need to register with the Alien Flight School program for Private, Instrument, and Multi ratings. Commercial and CFI ratings don't require AFS registration. And yes, you will need to re-apply for each of those ratings, but you will only need to be fingerprinted once.

-Good luck!

I too called ATP recently inquiring about the CFI rating and was told I would have to be a U.S Citizen. It seems to me they would be losing quite a bit of business by limiting themselves in this way. The interesting thing is they are hurting real bad for instructors and a condition of enroling in the CFI course is that you work for them.
I suspect that eventually they will have to change their policy in order to accomodate the CFI shortage that has already started!

[turbomax97]

Actually, the CFI shortage is temporary... we just enrolled 40 - 50 students for the classes starting yesterday and as long as enrollement continues at this point, which it will, it will trickle through to plenty of CFI's.... BTW, the main reason for them not training foreign students is because it wasn't worth the wait, paperwork and time involved with TSA. ATP isn't hurting for business whatsoever.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

Actually, the CFI shortage is temporary... we just enrolled 40 - 50 students for the classes starting yesterday and as long as enrollement continues at this point, which it will, it will trickle through to plenty of CFI's.... BTW, the main reason for them not training foreign students is because it wasn't worth the wait, paperwork and time involved with TSA. ATP isn't hurting for business whatsoever.

I gotta disagree with you turbomax97...I think S.T.Aviatior makes a good point..just look at schools like Mazzei..looks like they are making a good amount of money training students from Tawain and India. Besides the US is a relatively "cheap" country to learn to fly wich attracts a bunch of international students..good for the economy and empowering for the aviation in this country.
Now I'm sure ATP insn't gonna go broke with their policy but they sure aren't making as much money as they could be!

[turbomax97]

I'll rephrase it for ya. ATP did train foreign students previously. After doing it, and especially after 9/11, it wasn't worth the effort.

[TheAlchemist]

Originally Posted by turbomax97

I'll rephrase it for ya. ATP did train foreign students previously. After doing it, and especially after 9/11, it wasn't worth the effort.

Just so you know...You DON'T need to rephrase it for me. I got your point before and I STILL don't agree with ya!
Thank you very much!

[turbomax97]

Crikey! Don't get so uptight about it now... we were having a civil conversation.

I work in ATP administration. It takes a MINIMUM of 45 days for TSA approval, per student. On top of that, there's a fee to TSA, per student, per application - whether the student gets in (and many don't) that fee is still pay, and no its not cheap either.

The biggest profit margin is what the company was based on - ATP's. That was the case back in the 80's and it's still the case today. ATP only has so many planes - and the profit margin in the ACPP is relatively low(do the math @ 300/hr multi). The same amount of time and headache it involves to get a TSA clearance - can schedule a hell of a lot more ATP students.

On that same tangent - we only have so many seminole's as is - and they're shorthanded at most locations. Usually the foreign pilots that want to fly want to do the PPL and ACPP at ATP, which would take up even more planes. Currently, ATP just happens to manage their planes damn efficiently.

On top of everything - one of the biggest disadvantages to training foreign students is that the way atp works is that u do their programs, get all the ratings, and most of the time go back and work for them. As a foreign student - ATP cannot/ will not give you an instrument rating. Without an instrument rating - no cross countries in the seminole. Without the xc time - no commercial rating - it ends up being a total mess...

[jani82]

Albert, it seems that I am having the same problem here. I was planning to go for the ATP pilot career program, but now reading this, it might not be the brightest thing to do. is it really a big issue being a non US citizien???... even if I am European? And if so, is it that difficult to obtain the citizienship? coz i know that within Europe is not that hard... I see people from other continents coming here all the time.