finding CFI job after ATP

notawannabee · October 2nd, 2006, 17:00

It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates. Has anyone else witnessed this in other locations as well ?

notawannabee · October 2nd, 2006, 17:15

I probably should have put this in ATP thread. If a moderator thinks it would be better there, please....send it on over

DE727UPS · October 2nd, 2006, 17:22

"It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates"

Sacrilege...

You're gonna be branded a misinformed malcontent here pretty soon. But I happen to know of a big school in Seattle that is the same way.

N422NM · October 2nd, 2006, 17:56

We don't hire CFI's straight from ATP. If the person works somewhere after ATP and gets some dual given then we'll talk to them and see if they are what we are looking for.

notawannabee · October 2nd, 2006, 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates"

Sacrilege...

You're gonna be branded a misinformed malcontent here pretty soon. But I happen to know of a big school in Seattle that is the same way.

I could be misinformed. It could even be an inferiority complex the smaller FBO has towards ATPs excellent program and pricing. Who knows, but I have heard this. I suppose most schools would like you to both train and instruct at their school.

Captain_Bob · October 2nd, 2006, 19:05

No doubt you'll find flight schools out there that won't hire anyone from a large training academy or flight school. There are lot's of old time thought processes out there that think there is only one way to train, and don't believe that an individual can overcome any perceived faults of a flight school.

It's not sacrilege to state that, or ask the question, as Don would have you believe. He's just one of the one's of a different opinion.

There are lot's of people on here who went to ATP who got hired at the flight school of their choice.

In a large part... it's basic economics for an FBO not to hire anyone from another flight school. Skymates/ATP/AriBen/FSI/DCA etc. are all perfect examples... Who is their first choice for an instructor? One who has completed their program. Do you think it's any different at an FBO? Wouldn't the FBO be better off hiring someone who trained there as an Instructor? A person who paid that FBO for their training, knows their equipment, policies, rules, regs, etc... Of course.

That said... I have also seen FBO's say they won't hire ATP grads because they didn't think they had the SE proficiency since ATP is primarily Multi. I can't deny that. But I had a real good friend get hired at an FBO in Austin who originally thought that way... but he proved them wrong through two interviews, the last one being a panel interview with their chief pilot.

I personally know several guys that I trained with and were students there when I was an instructor who already had CFI jobs lined up at their hometown FBO because they were in a "need" situation for CFI's and they told these guys to go get their ratings and come back to a job.

Don, how is it that you think someone will be branded a "mis-informed malcontent" when they say something bad about this flight school, when all most guys usually attempt to do is also explain a different point of view?

Do some flight schools not hire ATP grads... yes. Do some flight schools not hire anyone else but students who trained at their flight schools or flight schools "similar" to theirs... yes. Do some flight schools not like the lack of SE time that students get at ATP... yes. Is it possible for an ATP student to be smart and capable enough to still get a job at a location like that... yes. Are some folks just adamantly opposed to ATP or other larger flight school CFI candidates... yes.

It's a reality... you just have to do your research. If you want to go to a large flight school and work for an FBO who "doesn't like" large flight school guys... then you need to have a game plan in place...

Here's one more fact of economics... if Joe's FBO has too many students and not enough instructors, and JohnCFI comes up to their door, squared away, with a resume in hand and all his ratings... Do you think that Joe's FBO will just say... "Nope... Sorry... We don't like your kind... we'll just continue to lose money until somebody we do like comes along."? What do you think?

When there's a surplus... we can all be choosey. When there's a deficit...

Bob

MusketeerMan · October 2nd, 2006, 19:24

Isn't there room for the school to "not have complete faith" about a new CFI completing all of their instructor ratings in 2 weeks?

notawannabee · October 2nd, 2006, 19:33

CaptainBob,

Well put... Just to make sure I put this out there...I am not bashing ATP at all.... I cannot develop an opinion on ATP because I have never trained or even visited ATP.

.

777forever · October 2nd, 2006, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

Isn't there room for the school to "not have complete faith" about a new CFI completing all of their instructor ratings in 2 weeks?

A student doing ATPs CFI program must be fully prepared knowledge-wise for the checkride before they BEGIN the program or they will never make it. Yes, it is nearly impossible to complete your instructor ratings starting from scratch day one of a 2-week CFI program. Hope I answered any doubts you had

Captain_Bob · October 2nd, 2006, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusketeerMan

Isn't there room for the school to "not have complete faith" about a new CFI completing all of their instructor ratings in 2 weeks?

Absolutely Muskateer!

However, let's be real here. Neither ATP nor any other flight school that does advanced/accelerated CFI courses just takes Joe Pilot off the street and gives them their CFI's in two weeks. That is one of the biggest mis-conceptions. There is significant prework, prestudy, and recency requisites prior to day one.

An immersion program is not for everyone... remember, some flight schools have more faith in guys/gals that took up to a year to get their CFI. With things like life, job, family, information disuse, etc... getting in the way.

Either way... they both will have had to pass a considerable checkride with an FAA Examiner or DE to get their "license to learn.".

Bob

Van_Hoolio · October 3rd, 2006, 22:01

Being trained at ATP actually helped me get my flight instructor job. Three of the other instructors I work/worked with were ATP trained, and I think that made me a known quantity. And when we finally got a twin on the line, guess which instructors were the ones checked out to instruct in it? That's right, the ones who trained at ATP and had all the multi time! "Get your MEI and instruct" is a lot easier spoken than practiced.

Mike

Airdale · October 3rd, 2006, 22:26

I got offered 3 CFI jobs out of ATP. Ended up turning them down and working at ATP anyway. Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins.

I know a guy that instructs in 172's, makes more money then me. But yet he tells me all the time he wishes he went to ATP and got a job here. Because while he's still flying 172's 6 months from now to build his total time over 1,000hrs, and has to buy time in a twin to meet the multi requirements, I'll be on my way to the next level before him. At times I envy his job because he trains Private pilots and makes decent money....but then I hop in the Seminole and feel much better.

Not to mention we train IFR guys all the time, so my IFR skills have greatly improved. Teaching Private pilots all the time doesn't do much for solid IFR skills and procedures.

This debate over the quality of training at ATP is getting old. I think their performance speaks for itself. I scored no less then 88% on any written, didn't fail a checkride and now as a CFI I have 15 sign-off's with 14 first time passes sent with over 7 DPE's. Go to ATP, don't go to ATP, I don't think you'll hurt anyone's feelings. Ratings are ratings. Get them in your pocket and strive to be the best pilot you possibly can. You can be successful training at any school or FBO. You will only be as good as you want to be. I tell this to my students all the time. I constantly raise the bar and get them to perform above their level. My philosophy is, if you're going to be a Professional Pilot, then be a Professional Pilot. Don't sell yourself short. Demand the training you want, and most flight schools will give it to you. ATP provides a great atmosphere for training Professional Pilots, its just up to the students to get the most out of it.

musicmixer · October 4th, 2006, 01:11

I had a short stint at a somewhat small school flying cherokee's after ATP. JK called me after 3 week of instructing there and I was more than happy to accept. Besides the Multi time, I was very pleased go to ATP and fly aircraft that I felt safe in. ATP takes care of their aircaraft.

DE727UPS · October 4th, 2006, 03:36

"Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins"

www.galvinflying.com

Yeah, I'm sure their jealous....

Perhaps they just aren't interested in flying twins for $10/hr.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Captain_Bob · October 4th, 2006, 03:38

Yeah... a bit overboard with the "jealousy" remark.

People are people... Flight schools are flight schools... Opinions are opinions...

Bob

Airdale · October 4th, 2006, 09:49

Yeah okay, maybe jealous isn't the right word. But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP? We have a college on the field here and they are not very fond of ATP. We train pilots just like everybody else, we just do it in multi engine airplanes and in short time frames.

DE727UPS · October 4th, 2006, 13:17

"But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP"

Bitterness? Do you have any general aviation background outside ATP? Some people think guys going from zero experience to CFI's in 90 days, then training newbies who go from zero experience to CFI in 90 days, and on and on, is less than ideal and doesn't make for a well rounded CFI. Some people don't think two guys logging multi-PIC at the same time is a good idea.

Bob is right, that feeling is simply an opinion, nothing more. It's an opinion I share.

killbilly · October 4th, 2006, 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins"

www.galvinflying.com

Yeah, I'm sure their jealous....

Perhaps they just aren't interested in flying twins for $10/hr.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Looks like a nice place. I read the training brochure...kinda spendy, IMHO, but definitely a nice fleet. What it brought to mind was the discussion over learning in glass-cockpit vs. steam gauges we had a month or so ago....

Airdale · October 4th, 2006, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

Bitterness? Do you have any general aviation background outside ATP? Some people think guys going from zero experience to CFI's in 90 days, then training newbies who go from zero experience to CFI in 90 days, and on and on, is less than ideal and doesn't make for a well rounded CFI. Some people don't think two guys logging multi-PIC at the same time is a good idea.

Bob is right, that feeling is simply an opinion, nothing more. It's an opinion I share.

Yeah, I putted around in 172's for a bit. Even worked at a local FBO for a short stint. What type of experience is required? When you pass a CFI checkride, you have demonstrated the required knowledge and the ability to pass that on as an instructor. I had no experience instructing, but you have to start somewhere. I frequently train people with tripple the flight hours I have. I have learned more training various students in a complex environment then I ever would have carving holes in the sky teaching private pilots. I shoot approaches weekly, consistently teach multi engine aerodynamics, IFR procedures, rules and regulations. I shut down engines in the sky sometimes 3 times in one day. I only have one checkride bust as a CFI. I probably have more experience in 200hrs dual given then some CFI's with twice that amount teaching private pilots. I go from teaching an 85hr Private pilot how to fly a twin on one engine and then hop in the plane with a DC-8 pilot and teach him how to hand fly a stable approach. I teach Private pilots with fresh multi engine privelages how to fly solid approaches, single engine with a partial panel in 27 days. Would that count for experience?

There are two kinds of CFI's : Those that are instructors and those that hold a CFI ticket. You get both at any school. I'd really like to know what kind of experience a CFI needs before they should instruct? Would it be best to buy my flight time and fly around for fun? Or maybe I should go back and teach Private Pilots in Cessna's. That will surely give me the experience I need to train more advanced students right?

DE727UPS · October 4th, 2006, 16:40

Again, my point wasn't to knock you, your experience, or ATP. The fact remains, some people aren't impressed with the place. There is reason beyond bitterness and jealousy for that that you may not see if you've never been outside the ATP environment.

Captain_Bob · October 4th, 2006, 19:10

Don,

You're not going to believe this... I agree with you.

Airdale,

I know it's hard for someone who's currently in the program/instructing right now to be able to see how others may not see what you are doing as "The best" thing.

The fact is... there are people who don't learn that way... and there are people who don't approve of instruction that way. That's just life. Jealously doesn't factor into a chief pilot at Joe's FBO not wanting to hire an ATP instructor... a difference of opinion and philosophy, and a differing mindset of how it's "supposed" to be done does. Right or wrong, people are entitled to that. It's up to the individuals to help change that.

Bob

SpiraMirabilis · October 4th, 2006, 22:21

Its not 0 experience, its TT 85 hours (granted as a PPL). I've been to local FBOs, and the best instructors I've had have been at ATP. For example, my instructor would not teach out of a gouge, he taught us essentially the entire PTS though.

Are there instructors that do teach a gouge for some checkrides at ATP? Yes, they may be more common than mine. But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text.

Airdale · October 4th, 2006, 23:03

Before I became a "pilot", and was trying to figure out where I should get my ratings, I was told by many many pilots, that it doesn't matter where you get your ratings. Just get them and starting building time as an instructor. Well obviously thats not the case if people discriminate against those who train at a particular school.

I don't owe ATP anything, and they don't owe me anything. I paid my fees, got my ratings and now they pay me to train their students. I'm not an ATP marketing tool, I speak of my experience here and thats it. But when I hear of schools that refuse to hire graduates from ATP for an entry level CFI position, I think its a load of crap. And as I said, any Joe Schmo FBO flight school who is biased towards ANY school without evaluating the applicant, isn't a place that I would want to work at anyway. They can hire their local 152 pilots.

Some of our graduates come right out of the program and go right back and teach the same program. It works. It has worked for a long time and the school's track record is there. Beyond that, I could care less. Its multi time in my logbook and hopefully my foot in the door at the next level much faster.

Until red white and blue Seminoles start falling out of the sky like rain with inexperienced instructors behind the controls, and the airlines stop hiring ATP instructors - then I guess I'll keep the factory running at our location.

Captain_Bob · October 5th, 2006, 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airdale

And as I said, any Joe Schmo FBO flight school who is biased towards ANY school without evaluating the applicant, isn't a place that I would want to work at anyway.

That sir... is something that I can not agree with you more!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiraMirabilis

But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text.

Where have you seen that??

Yes... we have all seen it. I sometimes think he says things just to get folks riled up. It makes me think he want's this forum to turn into what some of the other forums have become... a slugfest.

Let's just keep it professional, remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinions... just let the professionalism and results here speak for themselves. I truly believe that folks who wander in to this forum notice this.

This forum has the 3rd largest amount of threads on JC.com... the 4th largest number of posts, and at any given time there are as many people viewing this forum as all the other flight school forums combined. That says something about this flight school, and what is being said in this forum.

As slighted as some of Don's comments have been... they have actually helped those who may have had similar questions but were to afraid to ask... or didn't know to ask. I've said it before... opinions are opinions... but facts, results, and professionalism say something.

Bob

DE727UPS · October 5th, 2006, 11:29

"But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text"

I suppose I'd say that too if I was sold on ATP and didn't want any of what some people consider "the negatives" to be discussed. It's like I play for the "other" team and you don't like it. Suit yourself. There simply is no way I can express my opinion on the negatives about ATP in a way the pro-ATP crowd will like or be happy about.

I really think you guys get your feathers ruffled too easy...

October 2nd, 2006, 17:00	#1
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 217	finding CFI job after ATP It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates. Has anyone else witnessed this in other locations as well ?

October 2nd, 2006, 17:15	#2
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 217	Re: finding CFI job after ATP I probably should have put this in ATP thread. If a moderator thinks it would be better there, please....send it on over

October 2nd, 2006, 17:22	#3
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: finding CFI job after ATP "It seems that in my area (ATL), flight schools prefer not to hire ATP graduates" Sacrilege... You're gonna be branded a misinformed malcontent here pretty soon. But I happen to know of a big school in Seattle that is the same way.

October 2nd, 2006, 17:56	#4
N422NM Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 36-44-28.5000N / 108-13-47.8000W Posts: 521	Re: finding CFI job after ATP We don't hire CFI's straight from ATP. If the person works somewhere after ATP and gets some dual given then we'll talk to them and see if they are what we are looking for.

October 2nd, 2006, 19:05	#6
Captain_Bob Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: DFW, based in ONT, wishing I was in Maine Posts: 3,898	Re: finding CFI job after ATP No doubt you'll find flight schools out there that won't hire anyone from a large training academy or flight school. There are lot's of old time thought processes out there that think there is only one way to train, and don't believe that an individual can overcome any perceived faults of a flight school. It's not sacrilege to state that, or ask the question, as Don would have you believe. He's just one of the one's of a different opinion. There are lot's of people on here who went to ATP who got hired at the flight school of their choice. In a large part... it's basic economics for an FBO not to hire anyone from another flight school. Skymates/ATP/AriBen/FSI/DCA etc. are all perfect examples... Who is their first choice for an instructor? One who has completed their program. Do you think it's any different at an FBO? Wouldn't the FBO be better off hiring someone who trained there as an Instructor? A person who paid that FBO for their training, knows their equipment, policies, rules, regs, etc... Of course. That said... I have also seen FBO's say they won't hire ATP grads because they didn't think they had the SE proficiency since ATP is primarily Multi. I can't deny that. But I had a real good friend get hired at an FBO in Austin who originally thought that way... but he proved them wrong through two interviews, the last one being a panel interview with their chief pilot. I personally know several guys that I trained with and were students there when I was an instructor who already had CFI jobs lined up at their hometown FBO because they were in a "need" situation for CFI's and they told these guys to go get their ratings and come back to a job. Don, how is it that you think someone will be branded a "mis-informed malcontent" when they say something bad about this flight school, when all most guys usually attempt to do is also explain a different point of view? Do some flight schools not hire ATP grads... yes. Do some flight schools not hire anyone else but students who trained at their flight schools or flight schools "similar" to theirs... yes. Do some flight schools not like the lack of SE time that students get at ATP... yes. Is it possible for an ATP student to be smart and capable enough to still get a job at a location like that... yes. Are some folks just adamantly opposed to ATP or other larger flight school CFI candidates... yes. It's a reality... you just have to do your research. If you want to go to a large flight school and work for an FBO who "doesn't like" large flight school guys... then you need to have a game plan in place... Here's one more fact of economics... if Joe's FBO has too many students and not enough instructors, and JohnCFI comes up to their door, squared away, with a resume in hand and all his ratings... Do you think that Joe's FBO will just say... "Nope... Sorry... We don't like your kind... we'll just continue to lose money until somebody we do like comes along."? What do you think? When there's a surplus... we can all be choosey. When there's a deficit... Bob __________________ My head is in the clouds and my heart is still in Maine... but my devotion and love belong to my wife and children. Pics!

October 2nd, 2006, 19:24	#7
MusketeerMan Old Skool Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Elk Grove, CA Posts: 2,053	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Isn't there room for the school to "not have complete faith" about a new CFI completing all of their instructor ratings in 2 weeks? __________________ JBDaP --------------- "The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training" - Joe Biden on Obama's lack of experience.

October 2nd, 2006, 19:33	#8
notawannabee Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 217	Re: finding CFI job after ATP CaptainBob, Well put... Just to make sure I put this out there...I am not bashing ATP at all.... I cannot develop an opinion on ATP because I have never trained or even visited ATP. .

October 3rd, 2006, 22:01	#11
Van_Hoolio Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Des Moines, Iowa (based in IAH) Posts: 1,077	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Being trained at ATP actually helped me get my flight instructor job. Three of the other instructors I work/worked with were ATP trained, and I think that made me a known quantity. And when we finally got a twin on the line, guess which instructors were the ones checked out to instruct in it? That's right, the ones who trained at ATP and had all the multi time! "Get your MEI and instruct" is a lot easier spoken than practiced. Mike

October 3rd, 2006, 22:26	#12
Airdale Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dirty Jerzey Posts: 2,109	Re: finding CFI job after ATP I got offered 3 CFI jobs out of ATP. Ended up turning them down and working at ATP anyway. Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins. I know a guy that instructs in 172's, makes more money then me. But yet he tells me all the time he wishes he went to ATP and got a job here. Because while he's still flying 172's 6 months from now to build his total time over 1,000hrs, and has to buy time in a twin to meet the multi requirements, I'll be on my way to the next level before him. At times I envy his job because he trains Private pilots and makes decent money....but then I hop in the Seminole and feel much better. Not to mention we train IFR guys all the time, so my IFR skills have greatly improved. Teaching Private pilots all the time doesn't do much for solid IFR skills and procedures. This debate over the quality of training at ATP is getting old. I think their performance speaks for itself. I scored no less then 88% on any written, didn't fail a checkride and now as a CFI I have 15 sign-off's with 14 first time passes sent with over 7 DPE's. Go to ATP, don't go to ATP, I don't think you'll hurt anyone's feelings. Ratings are ratings. Get them in your pocket and strive to be the best pilot you possibly can. You can be successful training at any school or FBO. You will only be as good as you want to be. I tell this to my students all the time. I constantly raise the bar and get them to perform above their level. My philosophy is, if you're going to be a Professional Pilot, then be a Professional Pilot. Don't sell yourself short. Demand the training you want, and most flight schools will give it to you. ATP provides a great atmosphere for training Professional Pilots, its just up to the students to get the most out of it.

October 4th, 2006, 01:11	#13
musicmixer Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: SLC Posts: 90	Re: finding CFI job after ATP I had a short stint at a somewhat small school flying cherokee's after ATP. JK called me after 3 week of instructing there and I was more than happy to accept. Besides the Multi time, I was very pleased go to ATP and fly aircraft that I felt safe in. ATP takes care of their aircaraft.

October 4th, 2006, 03:36	#14
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: finding CFI job after ATP "Any flight school or FBO that turns away a perfectly qualified ATP graduate just because they are from ATP, isn't worth working for anyway. They're just jealous that while they putt around in 152's all day, we're flying twins" www.galvinflying.com Yeah, I'm sure their jealous.... Perhaps they just aren't interested in flying twins for $10/hr. The rest of your post I agree with.

October 4th, 2006, 03:38	#15
Captain_Bob Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: DFW, based in ONT, wishing I was in Maine Posts: 3,898	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Yeah... a bit overboard with the "jealousy" remark. People are people... Flight schools are flight schools... Opinions are opinions... Bob __________________ My head is in the clouds and my heart is still in Maine... but my devotion and love belong to my wife and children. Pics!

October 4th, 2006, 09:49	#16
Airdale Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dirty Jerzey Posts: 2,109	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Yeah okay, maybe jealous isn't the right word. But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP? We have a college on the field here and they are not very fond of ATP. We train pilots just like everybody else, we just do it in multi engine airplanes and in short time frames.

October 4th, 2006, 13:17	#17
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: finding CFI job after ATP "But what else explains the bitterness towards ATP" Bitterness? Do you have any general aviation background outside ATP? Some people think guys going from zero experience to CFI's in 90 days, then training newbies who go from zero experience to CFI in 90 days, and on and on, is less than ideal and doesn't make for a well rounded CFI. Some people don't think two guys logging multi-PIC at the same time is a good idea. Bob is right, that feeling is simply an opinion, nothing more. It's an opinion I share.

October 4th, 2006, 16:40	#20
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Again, my point wasn't to knock you, your experience, or ATP. The fact remains, some people aren't impressed with the place. There is reason beyond bitterness and jealousy for that that you may not see if you've never been outside the ATP environment.

October 4th, 2006, 19:10	#21
Captain_Bob Old Skool Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: DFW, based in ONT, wishing I was in Maine Posts: 3,898	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Don, You're not going to believe this... I agree with you. Airdale, I know it's hard for someone who's currently in the program/instructing right now to be able to see how others may not see what you are doing as "The best" thing. The fact is... there are people who don't learn that way... and there are people who don't approve of instruction that way. That's just life. Jealously doesn't factor into a chief pilot at Joe's FBO not wanting to hire an ATP instructor... a difference of opinion and philosophy, and a differing mindset of how it's "supposed" to be done does. Right or wrong, people are entitled to that. It's up to the individuals to help change that. Bob __________________ My head is in the clouds and my heart is still in Maine... but my devotion and love belong to my wife and children. Pics!

October 4th, 2006, 22:21	#22
SpiraMirabilis Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,435	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Its not 0 experience, its TT 85 hours (granted as a PPL). I've been to local FBOs, and the best instructors I've had have been at ATP. For example, my instructor would not teach out of a gouge, he taught us essentially the entire PTS though. Are there instructors that do teach a gouge for some checkrides at ATP? Yes, they may be more common than mine. But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text.

October 4th, 2006, 23:03	#23
Airdale Old Skool Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dirty Jerzey Posts: 2,109	Re: finding CFI job after ATP Before I became a "pilot", and was trying to figure out where I should get my ratings, I was told by many many pilots, that it doesn't matter where you get your ratings. Just get them and starting building time as an instructor. Well obviously thats not the case if people discriminate against those who train at a particular school. I don't owe ATP anything, and they don't owe me anything. I paid my fees, got my ratings and now they pay me to train their students. I'm not an ATP marketing tool, I speak of my experience here and thats it. But when I hear of schools that refuse to hire graduates from ATP for an entry level CFI position, I think its a load of crap. And as I said, any Joe Schmo FBO flight school who is biased towards ANY school without evaluating the applicant, isn't a place that I would want to work at anyway. They can hire their local 152 pilots. Some of our graduates come right out of the program and go right back and teach the same program. It works. It has worked for a long time and the school's track record is there. Beyond that, I could care less. Its multi time in my logbook and hopefully my foot in the door at the next level much faster. Until red white and blue Seminoles start falling out of the sky like rain with inexperienced instructors behind the controls, and the airlines stop hiring ATP instructors - then I guess I'll keep the factory running at our location.

October 5th, 2006, 11:29	#25
DE727UPS Old Skool Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 6,546	Re: finding CFI job after ATP "But Don kind of irritates me when everytime he mentions ATP there is a detectable level of scorn at the edge of his text" I suppose I'd say that too if I was sold on ATP and didn't want any of what some people consider "the negatives" to be discussed. It's like I play for the "other" team and you don't like it. Suit yourself. There simply is no way I can express my opinion on the negatives about ATP in a way the pro-ATP crowd will like or be happy about. I really think you guys get your feathers ruffled too easy...

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