How long after training do you typically get the job?

[flygirl1971]

It seems like one would build time PDQ as a CFI at ATP- since your students are also on the same fast track from which you came.

And after reading the hiring alliances that ATP has posted on it's website, it seems some airlines will interview candidates with lower time. (Before someone chimes in about how a "guaranteed interview" doesn't mean anything, I know that, BUT, they don't just waste time 'interviewing' for fun- SOME people DO get jobs, don't they?)

Finally, if you plan on responding with "do a search, this has been posted before" be helpful and include the link to the thread, because I couldn't find it.


OOPS- I almost forgot- even thought I'm a NOOB here, I'm not a NOOB to posting on message boards.. I guess that's my form of an intro.LOL! Take it for however you want

[Ian J]

do a search, this has been posted before

(sorry couldn't resist!)

(and sorry I can't help... I know nothing about ATP)

[Captain_Bob]

Hi Flygirl,

First off... I'd like to answer the only question I could find in your post: Yes.

Secondly, Welcome to JetCareers.com!

Bob









Buuuut seriously... I suppose you are really looking for weather or not it really happens the way it seems to. The fact is... yes, ATP instructors do build time fast. But, there are FBO's out there that build time just as fast. The main difference is at ATP it's Multi-Time you are building.

An "allliance" is just that. If you were running Flygirl's Ice Cream shop... and you were trying to get good quality people to work for you... and you had Joe's Ice Cream Training Academy down the road who trained students to be wonderful ice cream shop employees that met your standards for hire... wouldn't you want to go to them and say... "Hey... if you have any students who meet FlyGirls standards for Ice Cream Creation... then I'd like to interview them." Then... Joe says... "Sure! But can we advertise that you are willing to interview them... that might actually get us more students and in return more potential employees for you!"

So... it's cyclical.

Does that shed some light on it?

Bob

[flygirl1971]

I think I get it!

At my ice cream shop, I normally need to teach people dip technique before I can turn them loose on the 32 flavors. You can't jab into ice cream thoughtlessly, you need to finesse it. It's all in the wrist.

And if, hypothetically, students from Joe's Ice cream academy are trained from day one in proper dip technique & procedures, they are more prepared for sundae artists positions than grads who might not have been trained under a philsophy consistant with my business model.


ANYHOO... QUESTION or a few:

How many hours will be acquired during the 90 day fastrack program? Sim vs Multi?

On average, how many flight hours a month does an ATP CFI log?

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by flygirl1971

I think I get it!

At my ice cream shop, I normally need to teach people dip technique before I can turn them loose on the 32 flavors. You can't jab into ice cream thoughtlessly, you need to finesse it. It's all in the wrist.

Good sense of humor - that'll come in handy around here.

[flygirl1971]

You guys don't have enough smilies!! More like "frownies"

[JKJCKSN]

[quote=flygirl1971;424819]I think I get it!

ANYHOO... QUESTION or a few:

How many hours will be acquired during the 90 day fastrack program? Sim vs Multi?

ATP quotes 50 hrs sim and 140 hrs multi, but whether you get it is debatable. I would be very cognizant from day one that you strive to get the hours you paid for. It seems that if you don't need eight hours to get your private multi add-on you won't get it and therefore you'll eventually come up short down the line. Many students I've talked to have experienced this, as have I. Hope this helps.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by flygirl1971

I think I get it!

At my ice cream shop, I normally need to teach people dip technique before I can turn them loose on the 32 flavors. You can't jab into ice cream thoughtlessly, you need to finesse it. It's all in the wrist.

And if, hypothetically, students from Joe's Ice cream academy are trained from day one in proper dip technique & procedures, they are more prepared for sundae artists positions than grads who might not have been trained under a philsophy consistant with my business model.


ANYHOO... QUESTION or a few:

How many hours will be acquired during the 90 day fastrack program? Sim vs Multi?

On average, how many flight hours a month does an ATP CFI log?

Hmmm, want to train at the Trenton location? I like your sense of humor.

Flight times at ATP do vary, but you can expect 130 and above for the multi time during the program. As a CFI working here, it depends on your location and the time of year. In the WAS location I averaged about 50hrs /month for June and July. August has been pretty slow though. Some locations, like JAX, get a lot of students, so they build time faster.

[Tram]

Originally Posted by flygirl1971

You can't jab into ice cream thoughtlessly, you need to finesse it.

I have acutally found, through diligent testing that, for ice cream to reach it's maximum flavor potential, it must be jabbed..

[trevs11]

[quote=JKJCKSN;424929]

Originally Posted by flygirl1971

I think I get it!

ANYHOO... QUESTION or a few:

How many hours will be acquired during the 90 day fastrack program? Sim vs Multi?

ATP quotes 50 hrs sim and 140 hrs multi, but whether you get it is debatable. I would be very cognizant from day one that you strive to get the hours you paid for. It seems that if you don't need eight hours to get your private multi add-on you won't get it and therefore you'll eventually come up short down the line. Many students I've talked to have experienced this, as have I. Hope this helps.

As an ATP instructor, and someone who went through the 90 day program, the 50 hours of sim and 140 (plus zero, minus 5) multi is correct. What is not correct is that if you finish any ratings with less than the allotted time, then you lose it. If you do not use all 8 hours for your private multi, or all 29 hours for your instrument, then the time is supposed to made up in the cross-country phase. If at the end of the program you are short by more than 5 hours (read: less than 135 multi), call dispatch - they will send you out on a flight. I have seen it happen - you paid for the hours, and if you speak up, you will get them.

[JKJCKSN]

[quote=trevs11;428049]

Originally Posted by JKJCKSN

As an ATP instructor, and someone who went through the 90 day program, the 50 hours of sim and 140 (plus zero, minus 5) multi is correct. What is not correct is that if you finish any ratings with less than the allotted time, then you lose it. If you do not use all 8 hours for your private multi, or all 29 hours for your instrument, then the time is supposed to made up in the cross-country phase. If at the end of the program you are short by more than 5 hours (read: less than 135 multi), call dispatch - they will send you out on a flight. I have seen it happen - you paid for the hours, and if you speak up, you will get them.

Interesting. I'll have to make note of what you stated here when the time comes to have ATP pony up for the hours that I didn't get if it's more than the 5 hrs you mention.

Just curious. What happens if you fall short and are within 5 hours of the 140 (i.e., 136+ hrs)? At the rate ATP is charging per hour for Seminole time those 1-4 hrs missed can add up. If the majority of students consistenly fail to receive the 140 hrs of multi-engine time they paid for, ATP walks away with a nice chunk of money and the students walk away with less than they paid for.

Bottom line for me is that in the flying biz, hours talk and bull walks. Call me crazy but if you paid for 140 hrs of multi-engine time, you should get 140 hrs of multi-engine time.

[Tram]

When you get to training, you will sign your name on a dotted line.. somewhere in that paper work you signed says.. if you don't get 140 +0, -5 you are ok with it.. Your signature will be on the paper..

If it's more than 5, they will give you the time, if it's less than 5 (you got 136), its have a nice day, you signed the paper..

5 hours is not going to make a difference..

[trevs11]

Originally Posted by Tram

When you get to training, you will sign your name on a dotted line.. somewhere in that paper work you signed says.. if you don't get 140 +0, -5 you are ok with it.. Your signature will be on the paper..

If it's more than 5, they will give you the time, if it's less than 5 (you got 136), its have a nice day, you signed the paper..

5 hours is not going to make a difference..

Tram is correct - here is the way ATP works:

The price you are paying ATP is essentially for the ratings and certificates you will acquire, and the flight time necessary in order to obtain those certificates. In the brochure for the 90 day program, it quotes, 75 hours multi-engine cross country, 62 hours of multi engine instruction / flight checks, and up to 3 hours citation jet training - a total of 140 hours. It also states that logged times will vary slightly due to flight check times and other considerations. Hence the plus zero, minus 5 that you agree to when you sign on the dotted line. Flight time is important, but what you are paying for at ATP is your ratings and certificates, and the necessary flight time to get them with.

[moose]

Just clarifying a misconception that everyone seems to have on here. ExpressJet, American Eagle, Great Lakes, etc. do not lower their minimums for instructors coming out of ATP. The minimums offered to them are the same as the minimums offered to folks off the street. Just something to think about.

[SpiraMirabilis]

SkyWest does (if you can get a LoR from ATP) by 150 hours TT. Which isn't that much, like 2 months of instructing.

[Tram]

Originally Posted by moose

Just clarifying a misconception that everyone seems to have on here. ExpressJet, American Eagle, Great Lakes, etc. do not lower their minimums for instructors coming out of ATP. The minimums offered to them are the same as the minimums offered to folks off the street. Just something to think about.

Yes, you are correct, the published minimums are the "same.."

However, whether or not you get the call without ATP in your corner, is another story.. Ask me how I know..

[moose]

Well, I'll disagree but I'll also bite at the worm... How do you know?

[Greg_D]

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I'm considering the ATP career pilot program. Maybe some of the ATP instructors/students can clear some stuff up for me. The ATP web page states:

Flight Time

200 Hours Logged Time
190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
& Flight Checks
Citation Jet Transition
50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
10 Hours Single-Engine Time

Where does it state 50 hours of the multi time is in a simulator? And is that simulator time loggable as flight time or simulator time? This seems a little deceptive to me.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I'm considering the ATP career pilot program. Maybe some of the ATP instructors/students can clear some stuff up for me. The ATP web page states:

Flight Time

200 Hours Logged Time
190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
& Flight Checks
Citation Jet Transition
50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD - logged as legal Simulator time
10 Hours Single-Engine Time

Where does it state 50 hours of the multi time is in a simulator? And is that simulator time loggable as flight time or simulator time? This seems a little deceptive to me.

[Greg_D]

Thanks Airdale. Did you add the part about the simulator time being logged as "legal simulator time"? I didn't see that on any of the ATP website pages. Regardless, the way it is written, it looks like the 50 hours in the sim is in addition to the 190 hours multi time.

From your avatar and screen name I take it you were in the USCG. What did you do while you were in? I'm getting ready to retire from the CG in a few months. Where do you instruct?

[DE727UPS]

"Where does it state 50 hours of the multi time is in a simulator? And is that simulator time loggable as flight time or simulator time? This seems a little deceptive to me"

It's confusing why ATP would want to add the words "legal as simulator time" when it's really not. It's FTD time. Flight Training Device. It's not flight time nor simulator time. It's Flight Training Device time. The FAA will cringe if you call it a simulator and it's nowhere near flight time.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

It's confusing why ATP would want to add the words "legal as simulator time" when it's really not. It's FTD time. Flight Training Device. It's not flight time nor simulator time. It's Flight Training Device time. The FAA will cringe if you call it a simulator and it's nowhere near flight time.

I believe AirDale simply added those last 5 words himself. Moist likely attempting to emphasize the fact that you could log FTD time for say... an instrument rating. He most likely mis-spoke and placed "simulator" in there instead of FTD.

My opinion...

Bob

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

Regardless, the way it is written, it looks like the 50 hours in the sim is in addition to the 190 hours multi time.

The way it looks on the website is slightly different that how you listed it above. That could be leading to some of the confusion.

Here's as close as I can get it to the website.

200 Hours Logged Time

190 Hours Multi-Engine Time

- 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
- 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks
- Citation Jet Transition
- 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD

10 Hours Single-Engine Time

It's actually formatted better on the website than I can do it here in the forums... but you need to read it as 200 hours of logged time comprised of 190 hours of Multi-Engine time and 10 hours of Single-Engine time. Of those 190 hours of Multi-Engine time the break down is: 75 ME-XC, 65 ME Instruction and Flight Checks, a Citation Transition, and 50 hours in a ME FTD... (they are level 3 Frasca's.)

Bob

[DE727UPS]

Does the level 3 Frasca time count at as "multi-engine flight time", I mean, can you put it in your logbook as flight time or do you have to put it in your logbook in the FTD/simulator column instead of the total flight time and multi time column. I can see how one could be confused when ATP says you get 190 hours of "multi-engine time" but not all of it is loggable in the total flight time column....that all important column on the far right side of the logbook.

[Captain_Bob]

Don, you are correct... The 50 hours of FTD time are not logged as "Flight Time". It is logged solely as FTD and Dual Received.

Bob