ATP Jet Transition

[JKJCKSN]

Would anyone care to elaborate on the details of ATP's Jet Transition portion of their Airline Career Pilot Program?

[FUXA]

I dont think thats part of the career pilot program. Are you referring to the Regional Jet course??

[jayllamas]

The jet transistion is more of just the high altitude & high performance endorsements. Kinda tricky because when you say "transition", I thought it means you are being type rated. But in reality you are not getting typed on the citation jet. But anyways, it's part of the 90 day program.

[Captain_Bob]

The Jet Transition portion of the ACPP is up to 3 hours of time in a Cessna Citation Business Jet.

The purpose of this training is to gain your High Altitude and High Performance endorsements while getting an introduction to Turbine powered flight.

You are required to complete a rather lengthy pre-test on the limitations and systems of the citation, Turbine engine, high altitude aerodynamics, 02 Requirements & Hypoxia, Emergency Ops, as well as watch a video of a complete walk-around.

You will actually do the actual walk around yourself for the flight... make out the speed cards, do flows & call-outs, and you will log a minimum of 1 take-off and 1 landing which will include an approach.

You can log the time as Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC.

I did mine just after my instructor ratings... and it was a welcome break as well as a wonderful glimpse into flying a jet. It was... quite simply... a blast, and one of the highlights of my program!

Bob

[JKJCKSN]

Cool Beans! Thanks!

[FlyingNole]

Awesome experience, and if you fly with Mr. Dennis, he makes you feel comfortable and helps you enjoy it instead of making it feel like "work."

[Captain_Bob]

One more thing...

Here's a link to a movie of students on their Jet Transition Flight... Pretty neat!

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli...ion_movie.html

Bob

[WestIndian425]

I did mine with Joseph Santa Lucia, CYXU-KFTY. That was the most fun I've had in my training with a solid hour of IMC, an ILS (hand-flown), and I got to activate the reversers on landing.

It's a truly enjoyable and learning experience.

Neil

[FlyingNole]

There are no reversers on the bird....I forgot exactly what exactly they are, but its just a cover that goes over the back of the engine.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by FlyingNole

There are no reversers on the bird....I forgot exactly what exactly they are, but its just a cover that goes over the back of the engine.

Depends on whether you flew the 501 or the 525... I flew the 501 and we definately had reversers.


Here's the engine of the 525


and here's the 501 with the reversers present.


Bob

[Sodbuster]

The 525 has "thrust attenuators" that essentially "zero" the thrust by flipping a cover over the exhaust and deflecting it out to the side. Pretty effective with the ground flaps that practically scrap the ground. I also did mine with "Jet Joe", it was a good time.

[WestIndian425]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Depends on whether you flew the 501 or the 525... I flew the 501 and we definately had reversers.


Here's the engine of the 525


and here's the 501 with the reversers present.


Bob

Sorry, forgot to mention which one. I also flew the 501SP. Jet Joe really made it a lot of fun.

Neil

[xjt145pilot]

Just as a side note on the jet transistion. I would not let any of the ATP jet instructors log the jet time in your logbook. If I could erase it out of my logbook I most certainly would. It will come back and haunt you when you are interviewing and somebody asks: "I see you have Citation time, tell me how the pressurization system works." If you are like me, you will have no way to answer that question and will be forced to admit that all you did was sit in the right seat of a one person jet and go for a ride. You can try to put some other spin on it, but that is the cold hard truth. I had to answer that question when I interviewed for a corporate job.

Don't get me wrong; the time that you spent in the jet is a great experience and definetly shows you a side of aviation that you most likely have not seen before. But it is exactly that, an experience, not time that belongs in your logbook.

[NYer914]

Originally Posted by xjt145pilot

Just as a side note on the jet transistion. I would not let any of the ATP jet instructors log the jet time in your logbook. If I could erase it out of my logbook I most certainly would. It will come back and haunt you when you are interviewing and somebody asks: "I see you have Citation time, tell me how the pressurization system works." If you are like me, you will have no way to answer that question and will be forced to admit that all you did was sit in the right seat of a one person jet and go for a ride. You can try to put some other spin on it, but that is the cold hard truth. I had to answer that question when I interviewed for a corporate job.

Don't get me wrong; the time that you spent in the jet is a great experience and definetly shows you a side of aviation that you most likely have not seen before. But it is exactly that, an experience, not time that belongs in your logbook.

I think actually the point you are proving is that you should know about every aircraft that you log time in. When you go into an interview you should know the systems of your most complex multi-engine aircraft. For me I knew about the seminole and especially brushed up on the notes I took during the ground school portion of the jet transition program at ATP before my airline interview. I did not get asked about the citation, but was prepared to answer some systems questions. Preparedness, not avoidance is the better option for your interview.

[xjt145pilot]

Of course you should always be prepared and have knowledge of any airplane that you have flown. All I am saying is that I personally would not put the time in my logbook if I could do it again. It is not avoiding something, it is simply not opening yourself up to a potential weakness in an interview.

[FlyingNole]

Did you get the job?

[Captain_Bob]

Hmmm... I disagree.

You do bring up good points though about being very familier with all the aircraft you have flown prior to job interviews...

That said... I logged the time exactly as I stated above.

Dual Received, Multi, Turbine, High Performance, XC

I had no issues with it on my 121 interviews. If they ask you about systems of a complex jet aircraft that you spent only 3 hours in roughly 1+ years ago, then most likely they are trying to goat you into a situation to see how you respond to it.

Are you multi-engine rated? Did the aircraft have more than one engine? Was the aircraft Turbine Powered? Was it a XC? Did you receive instruction by an appropriately rated flight instructor? If the answers are yes... then... it is completely legal and log-able as stated above... no grey areas at all on that one.

If however, you decided to log it (or have it logged) as PIC or SIC time... then I can see where you would receive potential flack from an interview... logging it as such implies that you had specific duties and responsibilities for that aircraft and are legally responsible for knowing those complex systems...

Think of the Citation ride as an advanced "Be a Pilot" ride... only this time... it's a jet... and your purpose isn't just to familiarize you with flight... it's to familiarize you with High Perfomance and High Altitude Ops... This type of ride could just as easily have been done in a P-Baron or King Air. Just because the engines are "different" doesn't change the legality of the logged time.

Hope that helps..

Bob

[Captain_Bob]

Saw this after I posted the above... It caught my eye right away... after re-reading it... can you guess why?

Originally Posted by xjt145pilot

It is not avoiding something, it is simply not opening yourself up to a potential weakness in an interview.

There's that whole "moral" character thing about being a pilot too...

Let's say you don't log it... and now let's say you get an interview... they ask where you got your flight time... you say "ATP" and they say "Hey... don't they have a Jet Transition program? Where's that time in your logbook?" or they ask how you earned your HA and HP endorsements since they don't see any aircraft logged in your logbook that you could have done that training in... nor do they see any "dual received" for that training.

Where are you then... by not opening yourself up to weakness... you may have very well just lost a potential job as you try to backpedal out of that question by stateting something to the effect of "Well I had done that training in a turbine powered aircraft... but didn't log it so I wouldn't have to answer any hard questions from you guys..."

So now... you have illegal endorsements in your logbook... you are backpedaling in an interview... you have shown a willingness to deceive to your potential employer... Where do you think that will get you?

Honesty is truly the best policy here. Log it... if you get asked about it and you are not sure of the answer... simply state... "I don't know. That was a long time ago... but I have all the information and I'd be happy to look it up and get back with you on that question later if you'd like."

Just remember too... the world is full of holes in the ground caused by guys who didn't want to open themselves up to potential weakness by letting people know they didn't know how to do something.

Keep flying safe... and welcome to JC!

Bob

[xjt145pilot]

No, I did not get the corporate job, which is good because I am now with XJT, which is a much better place to be.

Bob, I never said that logging the time was in any way illegal or "gray." You somehow determined that on your own from my statements. What I am saying is that it is worthless time. Most of us would scoff at somebody who was 300 hours of right seat King Air time; so how is three hours of right seat Citation time any different? You do bring up very solid points though about the HA and HP endorsements.

I am not here to bash ATP, I think that ATP is a good organization which fulfills its purpose well. Although, I do think that the so-called "Jet Transistion Program" is nothing more that a way to provide the ATP executives with a personal jet while charging the students $1,000 per hour and writing off the jet as a business expense. No regional is going to care if you have three hours of right seat, dual received, jet time. Plenty of people get hired without it.

[Captain_Bob]

Hey there 145,

Not putting words in your mouth, or inferring you stated anything with the gray area statement... just clarifying the time logged for others, since you called it useless and that is hardly the case.

Will it get you hired? No... Will it give you an edge over the next guy in an interview? Will a regional care about your 3 hours of jet time? Most likely not... Is that it's purpose? No...

As stated earlier... it's primarily a "training" and familiarization flight that is utilized to satisfy the training required for your HA/HP endorsements...

As mentioned before... This training could be done in any other type of aircraft. Just because it's done in a jet, at an affordable rate, doesn't mean that the owners of ATP are out to get you. If they found a way to write it off and make money on it at the same time... more power to them, that's just smart business. At the same time... it does a great job "familiarizing" future airline pilots with Turbine powered aircraft and their associated systems...

The cost is rolled into the overall program that you sign up for... That cost is a fixed cost from the day you sign up. If ATP wanted to make more money off of folks they could very well just accomplish the HA/HP training in an old P-Baron. They would still be able to write off the jet for their own purposes of visiting all their locations... remember they also do Citation Type Training as well.

Like you said... no regional will care about your 3 hours of time in a citation... but it could lead to other conversations like: Tell me about how you prepared for flying the citation? How was it different than flying a twin prop? Did you shoot an approach in it? How was your set-up for that approach different from how you normally shot approaches in a light twin? What did you take away from that experience? What type of CRM did you utilize in the Jet? etc...

Not saying your bashing ATP, either... and definately not trying to insinuate that you said anything you didn't say... 145, if you've followed these forums for any period of time prior to posting your first post then you'll know I am not that kind of person.

I am simply providing information and opinion that may be contrary to yours in the spirit of good debate.

My opinion... your time in any aircraft... no matter how simple or how complex... no matter how brief... is a learning experience that you take with you for years to come. It also makes for great hangar talk and interview fodder.

Log it legally... be responsible for it... enjoy the ride... and gosh yes... even be proud of it.

Hey... and welcome to XJT too! You're right about it being a much better place to be. I'm in ALB on a long overnight... first time in Albany... it's a lot nicer than I expected it to be...

Bob

[Aviator737]

Yeah, and the Citation is nice n' easy to land, too. Makes me actually think I can be a jet pilot.

[jayllamas]

Maybe they should just change the course name to jet familiarization or jet intro.....the word "transition" is very misleading thats why some guys dont even bother to log it....i have spoken to some people who has done interviews and regretted putting that time in. I've browsed thru a lot of employment resources and I have'nt seen a high altitude endorsement requirement. On the plus side though..it has helped with a lot of confidence building and the fun they experienced is priceless.

[FlyingNole]

Whatever guys, by the time you're at an interview that is looking at your jet time (majors,etc), ATP will have been a distant memory. Just enjoy the damn thing and tell the guys that ask "It was years ago!"

[Captain_Bob]

LOL!

Hey there Jay,

You are right in that a High Alt. Endorsement isn't required prior to most 121 interviews since they will endorse you during your training. However, if you have the endorsement in your logbook then you better have a way to prove it.

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone would not want to log the time simply because they see it as an inconvenience at an interview... or that guys refuse to log it because they believe the "title" of the program is misleading. Whatever the title marketing gave it... it doesn't change the time and experience in the aircraft.

Even places like SkyMates advertise a Glass Cockpit "Transition" program... and a High Performance "Transition" program. It is a term used in aviation quite frequently to simply indicate an introduction or familiarization into new systems.

I completely agree with you on the confidence building and the experience as well... It really gives folks a boost to know that they can fly a "Jet"... after all... that's what most of them have been working so hard for through the course of gaining their ratings... It de-mystifies the whole "Jet" thing... and shows them that they can do it.

I can't tell you how many hours I spent on that pre-test going over the systems and walk around of the jet... I am proud of my time in that aircraft and what I accomplished in order to fly it and gain my endorsements in the process. It was an experience I'll never forget. How could I forget... it's right there in my logbook.

Bob

[blee256]

I can definitely see why someone would not want to log it. But Bob has some very good points. I studied the notes from the citation ride as well as a couple other jets that i flew. During one of my airline interviews they asked.....

"so whats the largest plane you have in the logbook"

my response...

"a G-II, but it was only a half hour and it was just for fun, i had an opportunity to fly it from vny-ont, but that was it"

interviewer...."oh. okay"

and that was it. haha......but i could see it getting ugly. At my other 3 or 4 intervirews no one ever asked me about it.