Autopilot

[MPDC]

Just curious if the seminoles have autopilot... I didnt see one..

[Captain_Bob]

No Autopilot... Your hand flying that baby!

I was told once that every older model seminole that ATP acquired that came with autopilot, has had the AP removed by ATP maintenance. And that the newer model seminoles automatically come with AP as an option and that those too are removed by ATP MX.

Two issues I see regarding this. The first is quite simple... If you are going to be learning to fly, track radials, shoot approaches to mins. in new and challengeing airspace... then you want it to be challengeing. This makes you a better stick and gives you a better scan.

Second, the fact is that AP's break from time to time and it's most likely a MX nightmare to have that many seminoles with "one more thing" that needs service.

Hope that helps,

Bob

[MPDC]

Thanks for clearing that up...Although AP is nice to have as a back up...But no biggie to hand fly either! So much for the coupled approach Thanks Again!

[Sodbuster]

The other problem with having at AP is that you have to know how to use it for the checkride... since it is equipment in the airplane. So removing it releases you from that burden.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by Sodbuster

The other problem with having at AP is that you have to know how to use it for the checkride... since it is equipment in the airplane. So removing it releases you from that burden.

This is where ATP gets knocked though... They don't have every goody ever made in their airplanes like most FBOs try and do. ATP is more focused on getting you through your ratings in the most efficient way. FBOs are more focused on being able to make money in every possible way which can be good because you will learn about more things but bad as you are paying for a lot of stuff that you don't need.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

This is where ATP gets knocked though... They don't have every goody ever made in their airplanes like most FBOs try and do. ATP is more focused on getting you through your ratings in the most efficient way. FBOs are more focused on being able to make money in every possible way which can be good because you will learn about more things but bad as you are paying for a lot of stuff that you don't need.

HUH? FBO's have goodies? You could have fooled me. All we have are the basic instruments. No GPS, No AP, No DME even. I was under the impression that the big schools had all the goodies and thats why they charge the enormous prices.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

HUH? FBO's have goodies? You could have fooled me. All we have are the basic instruments. No GPS, No AP, No DME even. I was under the impression that the big schools had all the goodies and thats why they charge the enormous prices.

Other than air work, what are you learning then?

I guess it depends on the FBO then. My point is that if they put more stuff in the airplane it takes you longer to learn it all thus they can make more money off of you. I think this is one advantage of learning at the FBO if you are the type of person that wants to know everything and go way above and beyond what is required. I never touched an autopilot till I started instructing (not at ATP).

From a business point of view, you could make a lot of money running a flight school where the planes have autopilots, ADFs, RMIs, HSIs, Lorans, TIS, TCAS, GPS of several varities, glass cockpits, weather radar, and whatever else you could find. It would take the students for ever to master all of their stuff so they know how to use it for the checkride but you could keep telling them that they will be the most educated pilots out there.

[desertdog71]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Other than air work, what are you learning then?

I guess it depends on the FBO then. My point is that if they put more stuff in the airplane it takes you longer to learn it all thus they can make more money off of you. I think this is one advantage of learning at the FBO if you are the type of person that wants to know everything and go way above and beyond what is required. I never touched an autopilot till I started instructing (not at ATP).

From a business point of view, you could make a lot of money running a flight school where the planes have autopilots, ADFs, RMIs, HSIs, Lorans, TIS, TCAS, GPS of several varities, glass cockpits, weather radar, and whatever else you could find. It would take the students for ever to master all of their stuff so they know how to use it for the checkride but you could keep telling them that they will be the most educated pilots out there.

Must be the big city FBO's, it is not the case where I am.

I can do VOR, NDB, ILS, and LOC backcourse approaches. Thats about it in our aircraft. I will learn the DME arcs when we get the Twin later this month. Other than that, what is there? GPS and RNAV approaches.

[Sodbuster]

None of the aircraft I ever flew at the FBO I learned at had any goodies... I avoid goodies. They tend to drive the rental rate higher than they're worth.

[desertdog71]

Not many goodies in a $70hr/wet C172

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

I guess it depends on the FBO then...

From a business point of view, you could make a lot of money running a flight school where the planes have autopilots, ADFs, RMIs, HSIs, Lorans, TIS, TCAS, GPS of several varities, glass cockpits, weather radar, and whatever else you could find. It would take the students for ever to master all of their stuff so they know how to use it for the checkride but you could keep telling them that they will be the most educated pilots out there.

Tim, Dude, Buddy, Pal...

Did your flight school hire you into a management role??

As far as goodies go... They do happen to have that pesky lil' ol' Garmin 430... some with dual Garmin's... and they do have those tiny ol' HSI's... Oh yeah... and there's that whole other engine out there on the other wing too!

Just messing with you Tim... but seriously... My standard old FBO in Maine had a stack of 152's and 172's with none of the fancy stuff. You are right in your statements above that FBO's could make more money when they have all the bells and whistles... and that they (the students) would take more time to master that stuff... meaning that the student pays more money to the flight school ultimately!

My opinion... better to learn to aviate, navigate, and communicate as effeciently as possible without paying for all the bells and whistles as you go along... then spend a few hours on a check-out for the fancy stuff if you want or even need it. This would save the student LOADS of money over the course of their ratings.

But then again... like you said... flight schools could make LOTS of money the other way... and they can just keep telling them they'll be the most educated pilots out there as they're dropping off the daily bank deposits with a skip in their step.

Bob

[Timbuff10]

Haha, no, the school where I teach is pretty good about this. They have a fleet of new 172s and all the equipment is pretty much the same. Nav II and Nav III packages so it is pretty neat. We don't have ADFs, so to me an NDB is just another waypoint. We do have one in the sim though so if someone is dying to learn about NDBs we can teach them in the simulator... Kind of like ATP. I just bring that up because I have heard of some FBOs doing this to require their students to learn/spend more there. I have seen places with bare bones and some with every goody ever imagined so I suppose it depends on the particular FBO.

The point I was making is that ATP does not do this because they know if they start requiring students to know about all this stuff, it will lead to them taking more time and driving the price up which scares customers away.

When you finish the program at ATP, you can dominate as a CFI at ATP. If you go somewhere else you will have to learn new equipment and new things. When this happens, I think this is where people at other schools that know their own equipment end up flying with an ATP grad and it can be easy to form a bad opinion of ATP pilots.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

My opinion... better to learn to aviate, navigate, and communicate as effeciently as possible without paying for all the bells and whistles as you go along... then spend a few hours on a check-out for the fancy stuff if you want or even need it. This would save the student LOADS of money over the course of their ratings.

Bob

I could not agree more. My thoughts exactly.

We have a pretty, brand new 172S on the ramp. It is gorgeous... even has leather seats. Has all the bells and whistles in it too. But at the end of the day it's not going to get me to my destination any faster, it's only going to confuse my students until they master the basics, and its really just a 172 that costs more than the others.

That being said... I DO think it's really a cool plane and almost wish I had it in me to "persuade" my students to train in it so my ass could spend time in those cushy seats and I could play with the bells and whistles.

But when I see them with their puppy-dog eyes and dusty, near empty wallets, we walk over to the 1978 C152 instead.

[adreamer]

I am jealous. Chinookdriver. The most fancy equipment I get to use is a good ole DME in a Cherokee 180.

adreamer

ps: My students are tired of me saying - "Aviate, navigate, then communicate."

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by adreamer

I am jealous. Chinookdriver. The most fancy equipment I get to use is a good ole DME in a Cherokee 180.

adreamer

ps: My students are tired of me saying - "Aviate, navigate, then communicate."

I don't even have that! Two VORs and maybe an ADF in all our planes except that 172S - and I haven't done any instructing in that one.

And your PS just gave me a good idea for a thread in the CFI Corner!

[Tram]

I don't even have an autopilot in the Jetscream....

[C150J]

How does that thing trim out? Just curious...

[Hevyhed]

Hmmm, I just don't see how training in a 172 with an autopilot, ADF, etc. even comes close to training in a seminole, regardless of equipment/goodies. I've been a student at ATP for almost 7 weeks, just finished my instrument rating. Anyway, I went up in a 172 at a local flight school last week (I had some block time left over there) and I couldn't believe the difference. The 172 was like flying a toy. I am not saying that the Seminole is anything great but c'mon, compared to a 172 with autopilot, G 1000, whatever. Training in the Seminole far exceeds anything you can put in a single engine aircraft.

[Hevyhed]

Also, ATP Seminoles have dual Garmin 430's and an HSI. In my experience, better equiped than most training aircraft.

[desertdog71]

There is something to be said about NOT using the high tech gadgetry though. I like GPS just as much as the next guy, and its an excellent supplement to standard instrumentation, a definate plus in Situational Awareness also. I just hesitate to get very dependant on them at all. When they fail, and they WILL fail at some point, it is important to have solid skills on the standard instruments.

If you think I am being unreasonable, maybe someone can explain why I had to talk a guy down in IMC over CTAF, because his GPS went out? He had become so dependant on his GPS he couldn't do a VOR approach, did not have proper plates and charts for the trip or anything. Sure he was irresponsible, but it can and does happen.

[Timbuff10]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

When they fail, and they WILL fail at some point, it is important to have solid skills on the standard instruments.

I say this to my students all the time too, but really, I have never experienced or even heard of a GPS failure... I am sure it happens, but I am yet to hear about it.

On the other hand now, engine failures, and other stuff, I have heard of.

[Tram]

Originally Posted by C150J

How does that thing trim out? Just curious...

It trims out constantly.. You gotta stay on top of it..

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by desertdog71

When they fail, and they WILL fail at some point, it is important to have solid skills on the standard instruments.

Ummm... So I take it you've never had your VOR fail on you... or an AI spool down... or the GS indicator stick?

The fact is... the old "standby" instruments are more likely to fail than a GPS with no moving parts is.

I completely understand where you are going with this though. But... just wanted to throw that out there.

Originally Posted by desertdog71

If you think I am being unreasonable, maybe someone can explain why I had to talk a guy down in IMC over CTAF, because his GPS went out? He had become so dependant on his GPS he couldn't do a VOR approach, did not have proper plates and charts for the trip or anything. Sure he was irresponsible, but it can and does happen.

Maybe his VOR failed?... Maybe he wasn't even instrument rated and just got caught in the clouds... Maybe he wasn't instrument current... Maybe he did rely on the GPS too much... Maybe he had an alternator failure...

Again, I see your point, but there are always two sides to a story... we can't place all the blame on GPS. Another fact... GPS is way more accurate than VORs & ADF's and in 2004 the FAA started requiring instrument students to be proficient with them if their aircraft had GPS in them.

Don't be surprised when you start seeing VOR stations being shut down over the next 10 years and VOR airways being changed to GPS airways either. The cost (we as taxpayers ultimately pay) to maintain the VOR system is HUGE... If more people knew what it was costing us then I suspect there would be massive push for a change to GPS... that puts the cost on the user... and not the public.

There is one change that I'd like to see with GPS systems. A backup battery or UPS system dedicated to the GPS so that navigation could still be done up to an hour after the electrical failure. I suppose the only issues with that are cost and weight... but I think it's possible.

Bob

[Asta]

Really, no autopilot? Not even a wing leveler or heading bug? On x-country flight, hand-flying is a pain: keeping altitude, flying a desired track, etc. In IMC, some say an autopilot should be a requirement, particularly for single pilot IFR.

[Ian J]

Last post in this thread: 2006. Then you.

Originally Posted by Asta

Really, no autopilot? Not even a wing leveler or heading bug? On x-country flight, hand-flying is a pain: keeping altitude, flying a desired track, etc. In IMC, some say an autopilot should be a requirement, particularly for single pilot IFR.

You're kidding us, right? I take it you never have had a single pilot IFR type job.