Anyone else unsatisfied...

[moose]

Hate to ask this question and I am surely not out to start any trouble as I have been enrolled in ATP's ACPP at JAX for about a 1 month now, but has anyone else questioned the quality of ATP's training? Just doing further research and asking some pilot friends of mine about my experience so far and what they think and it seems like the more I look into it, the more I want to get out of it. For the professional souls on here, no I am not a ***** and no its not that I can't handle the speed of the program (finished the PPL in 5 weeks, multi in 5 days and instrument in 19 days), but to be quite honest with only about 130 hours I constantly question myself and the things I have been taught. I mean, except for the PPL, which did quite a bit of ground and flight training, the multi and instrument training has been set up around the check ride, which is a joke when you take it with Earnie. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate a good gouge as much as the next guy but my instructors pretty much refused to teach me anything outside of that. For example, I realize that for the most part NDB's are absolete but when I want to learn about them, I expect an instructor to teach it to me. I will not mention any more names, but this guy had no clue how to perform any approach outside of that checkride box whether it was an NDB or a back course DME and his landings were consistantly atrocious. The constant dependancy on the GPS during IFR training kind of worries me. I have been referencing the text quite a bit since I signed up and like to believe that most of my learning I have done on my own. I don't know, call me demanding but I really expected more for what I payed. There are a few other things; one is that my sim hours, as I'm sure most of those who have done this program, have been smudged. Out of the 40 hours of sim that I have logged, maybe about 20 I have actually done. I was simply told "its not a big deal." It is when you payed for them! Especially now that I am contemplating getting my money back and I can't claim that I only had 20 hours of sim! The last thing I will mention is that during my instrument check ride, the guy I was in the room with for my oral completely bombed it, yet he moved on to his sim ride which he also bombed. Don't know about you but landing in the grass and busting Restricted airspace are tiny mistakes I don't consider FAA standard, but then again who am I but a silly ACP. Couldn't tell you how his flight was but he walked out with a smile. Don't know, I'm not asking anyone to convince me to stay but maybe explain to me why I am feeling this way. I don't want to step into an airliner, whether its an RJ or a KingAir, knowing that I was ripped off. I really like the pace of this program, infact I'd like it better if it was faster but I'm starting to doubt its effectiveness in building great pilots.

On a side note, how much does ATP charge for sim training and ground instruction if you decided to get a refund. The aggreement states only that $325 per hour of flight training and the rest will be refunded.

Thanks for listening and again, I have had a good time and for the most part a pleasurable experience. I did not add any of these because my concern is developing as a respectable pilot not the great time I had there.

[Matt777]

People who cannot self study should not go to ATP. I am NOT referring to you!!! But ATP instructors will not hold your hand (as you very well know).

I think that it is dufficult to make a sweeping statement about ATP since each customer's experience truly depends on the attitude of their individual instructors.

You are the customer. If you want those 40 hours of sim you demand it!

I think you might be happier with a different instructor???


I thought that 8 days for th multi private was pretty quick, but enough time.
I thought that 27 days for the instrument was mind-numbingly slow with all that repetitive sim time. BUT that gives you plenty of time to hit the books..... and the books are always more accurate than your instructor.

A school cannot prepare someone for the oral exam- it takes serious solitary study. Even when you have a groundschool class like you get in CFI school... you have to study yourself or you'll pink the oral (I saw it happen to someone... no, not me )

my 2 cents

( I just finished the program on the 20th in Vegas)

Get out a calculator to discover that we aren't actually paying THAT much for ATP... believe it or not... 135 hours of Seminole time at $235, instructor time, expenses and lodging paid for on cross countries, rental car at CFI school.....

In the end, you are the customer. Demand the training you paid for!

[moose]

Well, thanks for your advice, again I'm not looking to trash this school, you walk away with what they advertise and I agree, they give you plenty of time for everything and yes you have to be self motivated which I am. This is a passion of mine but I expect an instructor to be more involved with things when I request them to be instead of giving me the cold shoulder so to speak and tell me, "don't worry about it, its not on the check ride!"

As far as demanding what I payed for... I along with my class mates received a silly smirk from "King Crab," as he likes to call himself, and a speech about how that doesn't flow here and if I don't like it... well you know how that story goes. Along with that, its a threat of being "that guy on Jim's list." I hate to start trouble or be threatening, that is not why I got into this. I simply want to get $50,000 worth of training, right now I don't feel like I'm getting it; I have no idea how Vegas was, but Jacksonville has not been a fulfilling experience. Although I know you didn't direct the comment about being self motivated at me, I want you to know I am. I submirsed myself into this from the moment I arrived at JAX, but aside from a book, I need an instructor there to give me some type of hope that I will be trained in things that I, as a pilot, should know, regardless if its absolete or not. Non of my instructors ever took their eyes off of the GPS, infact most of the emphasis was on it! That just doesn't do it for me.
Again, don't want to knock anybody, I will not list any names... I just want to be sure, I take my career very seriously and feel the need to dig around for explanations and hope to get HONEST help! I feel this is the best place to get advice since its coming from fellow class mates and perhaps people who feel the same as I do.

[desertdog71]

I'd be bitching up a storm man.

I didn't choose ATP for this exact reason. They have a record of sucess from what I gather, but I kinda felt like the training was geared at passing the checkrides, which are easy as hell when you have a DPE in your pocket. Plus all that shared time and Simulator time, when do you get any solo time?

Anyways, You need to start making some waves, and get what you want out of that training.

[DE727UPS]

"( I just finished the program on the 20th in Vegas)"

So now whatcha going to do, Matthew? I've been wondering what you're up too...

[gtrmantb]

I am an ATP instructor and I do teach a thorough ground school as well as how to shoot NDB, LOC BC, and DME Arc VOR approaches. I believe you need to bring this issue up with your instructor if you are not satisfied with your training. Please don't judge all of ATP based on an experience with one instructor. In your instructor's defense, it is difficult to teach you to do a NDB approach when there are no NDB's in the aircraft or the simulator. If you are interested in learning how to shoot an approach without the GPS then try it with your instructor in the sim. Load in the VOR or LOC frequencies and use only the approach plates and the needle on the HSI. As far as Sim Time is concerned if you didn't get the hours you were entitled to don't sign the pairing form. Please don't let one bad experience with one instructor make you form an opinion about all of ATP.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by DE727UPS

"( I just finished the program on the 20th in Vegas)"

So now whatcha going to do, Matthew? I've been wondering what you're up too...

Good timing, Don! You were going to be receiving an email tonight!

I'm going to get my resume typed up and go down to Boeing Field on Monday.

Where I got my PPSE at Paine Field, Northway, they only hire people who got their CFI there (but I don't think they get much business there), Regal, across the ramp isn't hiring right now.

When I was fueling a 172 on Sunday night at the self-serve I talked to the fueler (Regal was closed) he said to check at Arlington Airport and said that "Wings Aloft is always hiring".

A guy who instructed at Galvin told me they too only hire CFI's from within, same as Northway.

I guess I'll check at Renton, and if no luck anywhere maybe even Portland.

If no luck then I'll apply at ATP.


What are you up to?

[moose]

Well, its not just the approaches that concern me. While working on my PPL, granted an effort was made to emphasize the importance of not using the GPS, the instructor had a dependancy on it and in a way passing it on to me. As mentioned above, when I requested help I was simply told, "it's not on the checkride, don't worry about it!" Among other things, I just can't help but think I missed out on training that may be, or perhaps even is, standard. The checkrides are what blow me away. If you are in JAX surely you know what I'm talking about, and let me know if you don't. Although I have delt with plenty of ATP instructors that took the time to try and help me with anything they could some could care less! Like I said before, I enjoyed the pace and so far I'm ahead of the advertised schedule, but there is a lot more to being a PIC then being a "yoke holder" and pass a check ride with an examiner who could give a rats ass. (again if you are in JAX you know what I mean) I spoke with a friend of mine earlier today and her training was a lot more extensive than whats on a gouge.

gtrmantb: I am very glad to hear that. ATP needs more instructors like you that pay attention to the needs of the students. I'm not basing and opinion about ATP based on one instructor, it is based on several instructors which I have/had for training and others that I have not. Also, I am trying to get some facts and opinions in making a decision and figure out if what I, lets face it a new pilot, am feeling is normal.

The pairing form was signed during the early stage of training, before I got anywhere near my checkride.

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by moose

For example, I realize that for the most part NDB's are absolete but when I want to learn about them, I expect an instructor to teach it to me.

I know this is a tangent from your main topic but yes they will be obsolete, but they are still used in some places (and some 135 operators do not have GPS that fly into airports that only have and NDB and/or GPS approach). It is a good skill to have and being able to navigate in a wind with one helps you with mental math and orientation helping you in other areas of instrument training as well. I teach all my instrument students how to navigate, shoot approaches, and hold at NDB's in the sim and sometimes one of the airplanes that has an ADF. If you want to learn this spend a little extra money and find a willing CFII and a simulator and learn to shoot NDB approaches in a good wind.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by moose

... I expect an instructor to be more involved with things when I request them to be instead of giving me the cold shoulder so to speak and tell me, "don't worry about it, its not on the check ride!"

As far as demanding what I payed for... I along with my class mates received a silly smirk from "King Crab," as he likes to call himself, and a speech about how that doesn't flow here and if I don't like it... well you know how that story goes. Along with that, its a threat of being "that guy on Jim's list."

... I need an instructor there to give me some type of hope that I will be trained in things that I, as a pilot, should know, regardless if its absolete or not. Non of my instructors ever took their eyes off of the GPS, infact most of the emphasis was on it! That just doesn't do it for me.
Again, don't want to knock anybody, I will not list any names... I just want to be sure, I take my career very seriously and feel the need to dig around for explanations and hope to get HONEST help! I feel this is the best place to get advice since its coming from fellow class mates and perhaps people who feel the same as I do.

I agree with you completely.

Who told you that demanding what you paid for "doesn't flow here?"???!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your view is that you should get your money's worth you certainly won't find me disagreeing with you!!!!!!!

In the last 4 or 5 months Jeppesen has been eliminating all the NDB approaches. All the NDB approaches are being deactivated if that makes you feel better. But with all that sim time you should be able to shoot a couple NDBs if you desire.

If you have an instructor that refuses to teach beyond the bare minimum for the checkride - the instructor is not worth the $44,000 you paid.

[moose]

I know NDB's are almost worthless, but its the principle.

When I approached somebody in the office, somebody of importance there I specifically said that I do not feel like the customer, I need more than I'm getting. I was told, don't pull that customer BS here, if you don't like it leave. That should of been the first and last clue.

Since I am still located in JAX and about 2500 miles from home its kind of tough to back my bags and go, plus I wanted to be sure this isn't just a stage somebody at my level goes through, hence asking my fellow class mates for some help.

Again, thank you all for answering to the post and I am not basing any opinions about anybody nor am I trying to knock the school... I sound like a broken record but I'm not a person who normally starts any kind of trouble.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by moose

I know NDB's are almost worthless, but its the principle.

When I approached somebody in the office, somebody of importance there I specifically said that I do not feel like the customer, I need more than I'm getting. I was told, don't pull that customer BS here, if you don't like it leave. That should of been the first and last clue.

WHO TOLD YOU THIS?!!!!

I was considering possibly applying there to be a CFI.

[BrettInLJ]

Originally Posted by Matt777

In the last 4 or 5 months Jeppesen has been eliminating all the NDB approaches.

Ummm... are you saying that Jeppesen is the one getting rid of these approaches or that they are not publishing active NDB approaches? Either scenario I would be surprised by, since it the FAA, not Jeppesen would make that call and I would think that if the approach still exists that Jepp would publish it.

Here's some trivia for you. What NDB airways are still active and how are they depicted? Also, what other kind of active low altitude airway still exists (not IFR and very historical)?

[moose]

Sorry bud, like I said, I don't want to give out any names.

[Matt777]

Originally Posted by BrettInLJ

Ummm... are you saying that Jeppesen is the one getting rid of these approaches or that they are not publishing active NDB approaches? Either scenario I would be surprised by, since it the FAA, not Jeppesen would make that call and I would think that if the approach still exists that Jepp would publish it.

Here's some trivia for you. What NDB airways are still active and how are they depicted? Also, what other kind of active low altitude airway still exists (not IFR and very historical)?

No, and I even knew I should word it differently when I typed it!!!

My understanding is that the FAA is deactivating all NDBs which are not stand alone NDBs. Like NDBs colocated with OMs etc...... But NDBs that make up an airway will be left in service... as far as I know.

As for the rest of your question, I'm going to hit the AIM and do some self-study now, but am going to go ahead and post this before I get the answer!

Plus if it is a new development it may not be in the AIM anyway. faa.gov perhaps...


Yes, I am very curious about the answer to your trivia now.....

[Airdale]

Let me offer you some advice, Moose. Don't air your dirty laundry on a public message board. Sooner or later, people will read it.

If you have an issue with your training www.jetcareers.com is not the place to be looking for resolve. This issue should have been, and I'm sure it will be soon, discussed with your instructor and ATP. It has no place here.

That being said, you can always go train somewhere else. Remember, ATP trains airline pilots moose. If something isn't in the course structure, its for a reason. The reason is probably because its irrelevant to Airline flying. All of the programs were designed in conjunction with various regional Airlines, believe me, those that run ATP know what they are doing.

Again, you shouldn't have brought this up here.

[Captain_Bob]

Overall, you bring up some vaild concerns.

However, most of the negative things that I have seen regarding ATP have been more specifically "instructor" related.

ATP has MANY instructors on staff... some new @ 300 hrs, many more with even more experience. In this thread alone you've already heard from some instructors and students already saying that this wasn't there experience, or they do teach a throrough ground school. I believe them... and I believe you.

Just like in any business, pilot group, professional football team, or yes, even family... there are going to be some people that "do things" differently, wrong, or in a way that isn't indicitive of the group as a whole. This sounds like something similiar to what you are experiencing. After all... You had no issues with the PPL experience... well, the school hasn't changed... but your instructor has.

My advice... 3 steps.
1. Sit down with your instructer for a very serious talk. Discuss with him in a mature, constructive way what your concerns are. If you get nothing productive out of that talk then...
2. Sit down and talk with the most senior or lead instructor or one that you have seen that you "mesh" with or respect a bit, and tell him/her your concerns. If this person can not help you, then...
3. Make the call... remember... no matter what ANYONE tells you... you are the customer. JK will take your concerns VERY seriously. There's not a lot of guarantees in the aviation world... but I can guarantee that.

Lastly... It is good for people to see both positive and negative sides to any school or flight program. That being said... Airdale makes an excellent point. Airing your concerns on a public forum will get you several types of responses from: Your lazy... you just don't study... that's why I didn't go there... see, I've been telling people for years that place is not good... It worked for me... what did you expect... my instructor was great... etc... Lot's of responses and opinions... but nothing to help you specifically with your situation.

If you've been following JC for a while then you've seen what happens in some of the other flight school forums when this happens. 50+ posts of bickering back and forth. Most, if not all of those issues had been resolved with a talk or "sit down" with the flight school owner or manager... In one of the more infamous ones on the AB forum, the initial poster came back on with something to the effect of... "Hey, I spoke with the owner/manager, and everything is fine now."

My opinion... your first post should have been an e-mail to someone who's opinion you respect to get their advise... or, a slighty better worded e-mail to one of the VP's. Then the post would have a bit more "umph" to it by maybe reading like... "I had this issue with ATP and this is how I got it resolved", or if it didn't work out then it could read "I left ATP for these reasons"... and it would be much more constructive to those seeking "advice" and information in these type of forums.

OK... Long enough... I know. But do me a favor. Do my three steps, and then pop back on here and let us know the results.

Take care.

Bob

[NYer914]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

My advice... 3 steps.
1. Sit down with your instructer for a very serious talk. Discuss with him in a mature, constructive way what your concerns are. If you get nothing productive out of that talk then...
2. Sit down and talk with the most senior or lead instructor or one that you have seen that you "mesh" with or respect a bit, and tell him/her your concerns. If this person can not help you, then...
3. Make the call... remember... no matter what ANYONE tells you... you are the customer. JK will take your concerns VERY seriously. There's not a lot of guarantees in the aviation world... but I can guarantee that.

Bob

I'll second that...I could not agree more.

[moose]

Airdale: thanks for your advice, but this is a PUBLIC forum and I think these are ALL valid concerns. This is the schools dirty laundry, not mine, that people who are considering ATP should see. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way and I'm trying to come up with a resolution by comparing my experience to some one elses.

CaptainBob: I appreciate your reply and will follow through with your three steps. The reason I posted this here and not in the JAX office is one, because judging from past responses it's been made clear to me that no help or advice will be given to me there and two, is to remain anonymous and avoid any unnecessary slack from any of the higher uppers and we all know how cruel they can be. This is a serious concern and I need to resolve it and not have some cocky retiree throw it in my face.

I realize ATP has a proven hire record but it's not about that. In someways it's about the lack of training and some about the quality of the business they conduct. We all know the checkrides are a joke(one examiner for the entire establishment at $350 a pop without the right to use somebody outside of ATP's office... and after seeing the quality that gets through the ride, it makes me uneasy) After speaking with a friend who finished training else where, I was embarassed that my instruction has not touched anything that she went over in detail, and she payed $30,000...

Just to add and keep from gettin flamed, I am not lazy. I finished PSEL in 5 weeks, PMEL in 5 days, and IR in 19 days, faster than the advertised time.

Quick question, anybody know how the refund policy works? What is the sim rate and ground instruction rate? The agreement states I will be charged $325/hour of flight training and refunded the remaining balance, do they include sim time and/or ground instruction or is this is a seperate bill?

[DE727UPS]

"After speaking with a friend who finished training else where, I was embarassed that my instruction has not touched anything that she went over in detail, and she payed $30,000..."

Where did she go?

[stultus]

Originally Posted by moose

Quick question, anybody know how the refund policy works? What is the sim rate and ground instruction rate? The agreement states I will be charged $325/hour of flight training and refunded the remaining balance, do they include sim time and/or ground instruction or is this is a seperate bill?

Uh, you did look at the paperwork when you started, didn't you? It's all in there--take a look.

I think Bob is wise beyond his years--take his sage advice, put down the NDB plates and go take the three steps before you make another post! I worked for ATP as an instructor and I can tell you that if you have a valid concern IT WILL be taken seriously by HQ and be addressed promptly--one thing I always admired about ATP's business.

[moose]

Like I said, nowhere in the paperwork does it give me the cost of sim and/or ground training, I'll type it out for you if you'd like, thanks Bob for your advice and others who gave me sincere answers instead of thrashing out. What I posted is my experience and to be quite honest the experience of half of my class mates. Jim helped me in the past but unfortunately I can't go back to complete the things that weren't covered (everything but the checkride), and Jim won't make that happen either.

Although ATP has some great instructors, there is a small minority that doesn't belong anywhere near an airplane nevermind an AIRLINE training institution. If you don't like what's being written here, don't read it and for goodness sake, don't respond to it and let it die. I have REAL concerns, it is not my priority right now to get into a regional airline but to receive training that will make me respectable, dependable, and a worth while PIC. I, and these are MY feeling, am not getting it here. Nobody as of yet has given me any hope that this will improve and although I haven't talked to anybody at the managment level I highly doubt I will be allowed to have the training that I payed for and deserve. If you are satisifed with what you got then GREAT, but I am not and hope this post will reveal things about ATP that needs to be known to people interested in the future. Nothing personal, the school delivers and gives you the ratings fast, no doubt in that, but sacrifices experience and quality.

Will ask the question again, what is the going rate for for sim/ground school or is all included in the $325?

[AFdude411]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Let me offer you some advice, Moose. Don't air your dirty laundry on a public message board. Sooner or later, people will read it.

If you have an issue with your training www.jetcareers.com is not the place to be looking for resolve. This issue should have been, and I'm sure it will be soon, discussed with your instructor and ATP. It has no place here.

That being said, you can always go train somewhere else. Remember, ATP trains airline pilots moose. If something isn't in the course structure, its for a reason. The reason is probably because its irrelevant to Airline flying. All of the programs were designed in conjunction with various regional Airlines, believe me, those that run ATP know what they are doing.

Again, you shouldn't have brought this up here.

Just what I was thinking.. There's a time and place for everything and here isnt the place, nor the time. Bob has great advise, I'd follow that first.

[DE727UPS]

"Let me offer you some advice, Moose. Don't air your dirty laundry on a public message board. Sooner or later, people will read it"

That almost seems like a threat...

JC is a place for people to express their opinions. If someone has an experience that is less than satisfactory, they have every right to say so. I'll agree that coming here to seek compensation or dialouge with ATP management isn't going to be effective. However, he has every right to gripe about what he see's as a lack of competency in his training program.

Lack of competency is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes I think guys expect too much when they go from zero to CFI in 90 days. It's good enough for ATP and the FAA, but some things just take time to sink in. Personally, I don't going through all those ratings that fast is the ideal way to become a CFI.

"Remember, ATP trains airline pilots moose."

I thought they trained CFI's who worked hard to become airline pilots. I hope ATP isn't turning out CFI's who are only competent to train "airline pilots" within the ATP system.

I think it's been said many times before, a lot about ATP depends on your location and CFI. It's been said maybe 10% of the CFI's, and some of the locations, aren't the greatest places to be. Maybe moose ended up with one of the 10%. If so, he has the right to complain about it. Complaining about it here isn't going to get him far. But I think it's good feedback for those considering the school.

I wouldn't call an opinion about what is possibly some substandard training at one location "dirty laundry". It's good feedback. How about some happy posts about this location and some good CFI's there?

[desertdog71]

Get the training you paid for. That is my advice. If they can't provide it, go somewhere else. Make a decision before you take even one more lesson though. If you feel like you are spinning your wheels, then you know what you need to do. If management has your ass puckered up at that place, then its a pretty obvious answer isn't it?

Like I said before, They have a positive record, but that doesn't apply to everybody. My personal feeling was to look elsewhere. Be that right or wrong, you have to make the correct decision for YOU!!

Nobody here's opinion should have that much relevance on your decision. Get what you paid for!!!