New ATP Program??????

[Sean_S]

Uniforms and now this! Only in this industry would someone pay 25k above and beyond ratings to make 19k a year. I guess it’s a good thing that these tools are in aviation and not investing or financial planning.

“On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of Employment.

After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.

Check out the web site for details:

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=42921

Sincerely,
James”

[Bigey]

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Uniforms and now this! Only in this industry would someone pay 25k above and beyond ratings to make 19k a year. I guess it’s a good thing that these tools are in aviation and not investing or financial planning.

“On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of Employment.

After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.

Check out the web site for details:

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/go.lasso?p=a&c=42921

Sincerely,
James”

Great..PFT...

[CRJDriver]

The Airline Transition Program is not a new program, it has been around for a while!

[Sean_S]

True and it took an idiot to enter the program when it first started. I'm just amazed at the way they turned into the Wal-Mart of pilot jobs with this crap.

[MPDC]

I am new to this forum, but I have been doing a lot of reaserch, and one question kind of pops to mind. Everyone here bashes the PFT/PFJ type programs, but it seems that very few are willing to bash ATP when they have one of the most publicized PFT and now apparently PFJ type programs. How is this ok, vs someone who goes and pays 15k to get a 135sic check then flys for 500 hrs as a first officer? I am just curious what everyones thoughs are.

[Airdale]

I've run into quite a few people in the Airline Transition Program, and honestly those I've run into are doing the program to build time. If they've got the money, and don't want to instruct, than the transition program is great for them. ATP is of course making out pretty good on the deal, but for those that can afford it, its good for them.

Basically this Airline Transition Program is for time building. Think of how much it would cost to rent those planes for that amount of flight time? ATP is pretty much renting you those planes for that amount of time and considering rental fees, their price isn't too bad. One guy I actually flew with was in this program and was working as an instructor somewhere and decided he wanted to build his time in a multi and go to the airlines. So he did this program and I believe is now hired at PSA. There are people out there who have the desire and I guess the money to purchase time. Another guy I know did this program with money he got from a family member's death, he's hired at Eagle now.

Just like anything else, it has its place. But like most, I'm already into this career with way too much money, I'll take the standard flight instructor route.

And lets realize something here, PFT, Pay For Training, is how you do it in ANY career field. You did PAY for your training right? Doctors and Lawyers did PAY for their training right? I mean I PAID for my flight training. Pay for job is different, but that doesn't apply here. You're not paying Pinnacle to work there, your paying ATP for the flight time to get hired under the agreement with Pinnacle. PFT, yes. PFJ, no.

[Captain_Bob]

MPDC,

The primary reason why ATP isn't bashed for being a PFT/PFJ operation... is because... are you ready for this... they aren't.

http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/42/65/

Please add this to your research and let me know your thoughts... it should be pretty clear after reading that.

Sean,

There's nothing different that ATP is doing with the Airline Transition Program, other than Pinnacle has agreed to this "Interview" session and hire students conditionally once they meet "Pinnacle's" mins by attending ATP's Program.

Two companies working together. What a business concept.

And for those who choose to do the Transistion program it's a very comforting thought, I would think, to know that you would be hired prior to plunking down the money to build their time to the mins of said company.

It's no different than the guys who come to ATP, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc... with just their PPL from their FBO or maybe they were rampers with their FBO, and their FBO said... "Go get all your ratings... and I'll hire you as an instructor here."

Let's say the manager of the flight school even told the new potential (0 to 50 hour time) employee... "Look, I'll hire you, but your going to have to pay me for your flight training to build your time, and get your ratings..." Is this PFJ/PFT? Of course it is... All of us Paid a flight school For our Training, or a potential Job with that or another flight school. But it's not the PFT/PFJ that is ruining the AIRLINE industry. Please see the above link to see what I'm talking about.

All the Airline Transition Program is... is an enhanced "bridge" type program... I say "enhanced" because most bridge programs offer "interviews" to program grads... which as we all know... and interview is no guarantee of a job and can just be used to lure unsuspecting wide-eyed, SJS types into programs. However, this program, more specifically, Pinnacle themselves, are offering students a "conditional offer of employment" if you pass their interview and you complete ATP's program. ATP is not even the one doing the "conditional" guaranteeing here... it's Pinnacle.

It's a highly advertised business partnership (marketing), nothing more... ATP wants your money to build time... Pinnacle is Hiring and after reviewing ATP's program is convinced that they can get a pool of quality candidates from one source that has a highly effective standardized training structure. It's good for both businesses... and by gosh... if your willing to simply pay to build your time versus instruct... then it's good for you too. But also remember... they will also be offering interviews to ATP instructors as well... so I think that shows they (Pinnacle) go both ways!

What other flight school out there offers on-site interviews?

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Only in this industry would someone pay 25k above and beyond ratings to make 19k a year. I guess it’s a good thing that these tools are in aviation and not investing or financial planning.

Ummm... you've just described the majority of the people working for the airlines today that "built" their time by simply paying for rental aircraft instead of instructing... dude... and you called them all tools as well...

Let's see if we can find some other examples of what you are talking about.

- A four year degree in psychology/sociology at a popular state institution... $35-$45k not including housing, food, etc... starting pay for a psychologist with a 4 year degree? Most likely $0 to $10/hr volunteering or working as a counselor or a case worker. You need a masters or PHD to make any money.... an additional $20k-$50k

- Same institution, only let's get an education degree... You'll pay $35-$45k for the degree and if you get hired in your town... chances are first year pay for a teacher is between $19k-$30k. If you want to make more money... you need to get your masters or phd in business administration and work your way up to a school administrator... another $20-50k.

The thing about the $19k a year for pilot pay... is that's a "first year" only pay. Second year at most regionals is in the 30's and up... depending on upgrade times... folks are making 60k-80k within 2-5 years... and if... if... a major is hiring and you decide to go there after 5-8 years... then the potential is over $100k.

Alright... I've rambled enough.

Bob

[MPDC]

Ive read that some employers look down on those who pft/pfj, so I am still a little confused about this. Why is it "ok" to do ATP's program for 25k, but It would be looked down on to do a program where I pay 15k for 500 hrs as a checked out 135 sic...Then apply to an airline. Im not try to be an ass, rather just trying to figure this out, since it seems more logical to me to pay 10k les, get 400hrs more multi, with approx. half pic, then apply to an airline, vs. going to atp and paying 10k...Please help calrify!! Thanks guys,

[MPDC]

Ive read that some employers look down on those who pft/pfj, so I am still a little confused about this. Why is it "ok" to do ATP's program for 25k, but It would be looked down on to do a program where I pay 15k for 500 hrs as a checked out 135 sic...Then apply to an airline. Im not try to be an ass, rather just trying to figure this out, since it seems more logical to me to pay 10k les, get 400hrs more multi, with approx. half pic, then apply to an airline, vs. going to atp and paying 10k...Please help calrify!! Thanks guys,

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by MPDC

Ive read that some employers look down on those who pft/pfj, so I am still a little confused about this. Why is it "ok" to do ATP's program for 25k, but It would be looked down on to do a program where I pay 15k for 500 hrs as a checked out 135 sic...Then apply to an airline. Im not try to be an ass, rather just trying to figure this out, since it seems more logical to me to pay 10k les, get 400hrs more multi, with approx. half pic, then apply to an airline, vs. going to atp and paying 10k...Please help calrify!! Thanks guys,

Did you read this? http://www.jetcareers.com/content/view/42/65/ or my explanation?

Your not being an ass... yet. But seriously... read that link again if you don't understand it. All you've done above is re-state your original question.

Bob

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

What other flight school out there offers on-site interviews?

Regional Airline Academy in Phoenix has American Eagle out all the time for on-site interviews.

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by meritflyer

Regional Airline Academy in Phoenix has American Eagle out all the time for on-site interviews.

Well... that answers that question...

Are they (Eagle) offering conditional offers of employment to RAA students prior to them signing up and successfully completing their program? It's a rhetorical question... we already know the answer. That's one of the differences in Pinnacle's situation here... thus my reference above to an "enhanced" type of bridge program.

Bob

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

There's nothing different that ATP is doing with the Airline Transition Program, other than Pinnacle has agreed to this "Interview" session and hire students conditionally once they meet "Pinnacle's" mins by attending ATP's Program.

True and it was just as stupid back then as it is now.

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Ummm... you've just described the majority of the people working for the airlines today that "built" their time by simply paying for rental aircraft instead of instructing... dude... and you called them all tools as well...

Yep they are tools if they do that, anyone that would get a comm. ticket then rent an aircraft for several hundred hours for the sole purpose of being eligible to gain employment is not only a tool but a complete moron! Not the type of person I want flying my family around.

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Let's see if we can find some other examples of what you are talking about.

- A four year degree in psychology/sociology at a popular state institution... $35-$45k not including housing, food, etc... starting pay for a psychologist with a 4 year degree? Most likely $0 to $10/hr volunteering or working as a counselor or a case worker. You need a masters or PHD to make any money.... an additional $20k-$50k

- Same institution, only let's get an education degree... You'll pay $35-$45k for the degree and if you get hired in your town... chances are first year pay for a teacher is between $19k-$30k. If you want to make more money... you need to get your masters or phd in business administration and work your way up to a school administrator... another $20-50k.

Wait but you’re paying for a degree you’re not going above and beyond by paying for some fake questionable experience in order to directly place you into the industry. But wait lets use you’re example and fairly compare it to this program. So you graduate and get your degree in psychology then you pay the school an additional amount to basically provide you with crappy irrelevant experience that will allow you to get a job that sounds like a little bit better of a comparison.

BTW I find it funny that you picked two of the crappiest degrees to attempt to compare this program to. Would you care to use the same comparison with say Accounting, Mechanical Engineering, or Computer Science degrees?

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

The thing about the $19k a year for pilot pay... is that's a "first year" only pay. Second year at most regionals is in the 30's and up... depending on upgrade times... folks are making 60k-80k within 2-5 years... and if... if... a major is hiring and you decide to go there after 5-8 years... then the potential is over $100k.

Even if you make it to a major in 5-8 years you’re still an idiot for paying for a program like this. Let’s use Continental since they appear to be the only major that is actively hiring. You might have the potential to make over 100k but you won’t be doing it for a while.

First Year FO Pay 26k
Second Year FO Pay 47.5k
Third Year FO Pay 55.3k
Forth Year FO Pay 63k
Fifth Year FO Pay 69k

Tell me who would you rather have flying your family around someone that paid to split time in a da-40 or someone that worked and gained real world experience? I usually listen to the other sides arguments; even though Tony and I tend to disagree it's very enjoyable to argue with him, he’s very intelligent and does a good job at presenting his side of the argument. In this case I feel it's a total waste of time to entertain any justifications for this program, anyone that has any amount of financial knowledge should easily be able to see that the ROI doesn't exist with this program.

-Sean

[C150J]

Originally Posted by Bigey

Great..PFT...

Would an airline normally pay you to log the prerequisite piston multi-engine time to become eligible for just an interview? If the answer is no - which it is - then this is not PFT.

Folks, I understand the gripes with PFT/PFJ in a Gulfstream "pay to be a required crewmember" sense and a "pay for your initial indoc training" sense, but I can't say that it's different in any other industry.

For example, my brother is in the computer graphics field. To become an animator, you must first do non-paid internships with the animation house you desire to work with. To become a congressional aide like my classmate, you must do the same thing and then earn $30,000/year and live in DC.

You can have daddy pay for college or work-study. You can earn/network into an Ivy League school or pay your dues by being a shining star at a community college (my Ivy school takes local comm. college kids automatically with a certain GPA, so I don't want to hear "you need to know someone," although there is academic snobbery there).

Personally, I think this program looks benign. Just another way to log multi PIC and get a taste of 121 ground school. I know MORE people that have gotten to regionals/freight with just 61 training than those in these programs, and it's obvious that they haven't stopped taking local hangar rats. Why worry about how someone is getting their multi time?

Again, the minute someone starts paying for a required seat or paying for initial training, I'm with you guys. However, to get ants in your pants over this is ridiculous. Focus on your track, your goals, and your flying, and you'll be one hell of an applicant wherever you apply.

J.

[C150J]

What do you consider real-world experience? I've flown part 91 ops in a Cessna Caravan for a corporate department (RAC-MDW runs) and will tell you that the cross-countries that these ATP guys are doing is real experience! Flying at 8,000 - 12,000 puts you in the weather, has you talking to ATC, and emphasizes crew concept. Sure, they're paying for it, but what's not real about it?

[Sean_S]

Originally Posted by C150J

What do you consider real-world experience? I've flown part 91 ops in a Cessna Caravan for a corporate department (RAC-MDW runs) and will tell you that the cross-countries that these ATP guys are doing is real experience! Flying at 8,000 - 12,000 puts you in the weather, has you talking to ATC, and emphasizes crew concept. Sure, they're paying for it, but what's not real about it?

Half the time that most of them log!

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Sean_S

True and it was just as stupid back then as it is now.

I believe I understand your opinion.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Yep they are tools if they do that, anyone that would get a comm. ticket then rent an aircraft for several hundred hours for the sole purpose of being eligible to gain employment is not only a tool but a complete moron! Not the type of person I want flying my family around.

Many of those guys who built time that way flew their families around for many years while building time.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

...to basically provide you with crappy irrelevant experience that will allow you to get a job.

Again... I believe I understand your opinion on that.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

BTW I find it funny that you picked two of the crappiest degrees to attempt to compare this program to. Would you care to use the same comparison with say Accounting, Mechanical Engineering, or Computer Science degrees?

Sure. I have no problem with comparing to any other industry. Some examples work... some don't. It comes down to people's choices.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Even if you make it to a major in 5-8 years you’re still an idiot for paying for a program like this.

Your opinion is noted again.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Let’s use Continental since they appear to be the only major that is actively hiring. You might have the potential to make over 100k but you won’t be doing it for a while.

Your numbers are a way low based on guarantee, AC Type, and actual line values. But yes the potential is easily there within 4-5 years at CAL.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Tell me who would you rather have flying your family around someone that paid to split time in a da-40 or someone that worked and gained real world experience?

I'll take that guy who successfully completed a 121 Indoc, Systems, oral, FTD's, SIM's, Checkride, LOFT and IOE... thank you. See R2F's and Kellwolf's threads on this for more of an insight into that.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

I usually listen to the other sides arguments; even though Tony and I tend to disagree it's very enjoyable to argue with him, he’s very intelligent and does a good job at presenting his side of the argument.

So... I'm not as worthy an adversary as Tony... Got it!

Originally Posted by Sean_S

In this case I feel it's a total waste of time to entertain any justifications for this program, anyone that has any amount of financial knowledge should easily be able to see that the ROI doesn't exist with this program.

You have to understand that for many people the ROI isn't financial. It's doing what they love. Enjoying the lifestyle. Step outside the box and try to look at it from more than just a "CFI is the only way" standpoint. You know... the whole "The mind is like a parachute..." adage.

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Half the time that most of them log!

Not sure where you are going with that... would you mind clarifying your opinion on that?

Bob

[Sean_S]

I don't think it's PFT/PFJ and I agree with you there but it really is a silly program. You can argue well it's just no one can argue on this topic and make it look good in my opinion. I don't think being a CFI is the only way but people need to understand if they would just hold out a few more months they would get to the same place and make money even though the money that they would make would be a very small amount it is still better then getting paid negative 25k.


BTW the half time thing is about hood time

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Sean_S

I don't think it's PFT/PFJ and I agree with you there but it really is a silly program. You can argue well it's just no one can argue on this topic and make it look good in my opinion. I don't think being a CFI is the only way but people need to understand if they would just hold out a few more months they would get to the same place and make money even though the money that they would make would be a very small amount it is still better then getting paid negative 25k.

Understood...

Originally Posted by Sean_S

BTW the half time thing is about hood time

On whether it's legal or not? Whole other issue... Let's not get into it here.

Bob

[Sean_S]

No just the fact that I never ran into anyone that would wear the hood.... well other then me

[Captain_Bob]

Well... now you know two...

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

Well... that answers that question...

Are they (Eagle) offering conditional offers of employment to RAA students prior to them signing up and successfully completing their program? It's a rhetorical question... we already know the answer. That's one of the differences in Pinnacle's situation here... thus my reference above to an "enhanced" type of bridge program.

Bob

My good friend instructs at RAA and there is no COE with any airline. Just a letter of agreement to interview their students who complete their program and have met modified mins. That is also the case at ATP who has published letters of agreement with Eagle, PSA, and I believe XJT. The conditional COE I know of is at FSI and their direct track program. So if you buy "extra time and training" as several flight schools offer, how is that PFJing? You are not "guaranteed" a job. Maybe an interview at the least which you must complete to their standards just as any other candidate. There are flight schools such as Westwind in Phoenix that "guarantee" you a CFI job after you complete their professional program. PFJ? Sure it is. You have to take classes in CRM, LOFT, and Airline Training Procedures and have atleast 10 hours in THEIR glass 172 or 182 to get that CFI job. The CFI job costs about $60-70K. ATP can get you your CFIs for much less. People need to stop writing the PFJ/PFT rules as they go along and realize that there are bridge, ab initio, and type programs that get people all to the same location, a job, in different routes which cost different amounts. Why dont the CFI guys hate schools that guarantee their graduates a job. Here in Arizona I know of atleast 2 schools that guarantee you a CFI job if you complete their program. Let me guess.. its totally different to pay for a CFI job than for an airline job right? Wrong. Its the same thing. Paying a potential employer for training that will ultimately result in your employment.

[C150J]

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Half the time that most of them log!

I understand your point. However, in my experience, if both crew members are actively working and flying a non-autopilot aircraft, they are both learning. Flying single pilot IFR in a Cirrus (with A/P) was the easiest flying I've ever done, and I was alone in IMC. Experientally, I consider my SP time in Mooneys and Cessnas more demanding than plugging waypoints into the GNS/Avidyne system.

My main concern is pilots getting to the right seat of a two-crew aircraft who need a babysitter (this is not exlusive of ANY training program). Not only are you not helping the PIC, you are making him do more of the work (kind of like losing 80% when one of your engines dies in a multi). If some of these LOFT programs help low time pilots gain the intuition necessary to become a more effective crewmember, more power to them. On the other hand, I sometimes think that "air sense" is an innate quality, along with looking when crossing roads and parallel parking.

[jbp1]

Originally Posted by Sean_S

Tell me who would you rather have flying your family around someone that paid to split time in a da-40 or someone that worked and gained real world experience? I usually listen to the other sides arguments; even though Tony and I tend to disagree it's very enjoyable to argue with him, he’s very intelligent and does a good job at presenting his side of the argument. In this case I feel it's a total waste of time to entertain any justifications for this program, anyone that has any amount of financial knowledge should easily be able to see that the ROI doesn't exist with this program.

-Sean

Like all of ATP programs, they are not for everyone. ATP's program of discussion is geared toward those who CHOOSE (key word) not to instruct, or are mid-life career changers who don't really have a year to a year and a half to spend instructing to build the hour required by the airlines. Granted that a lot of the regionals have lowered their minimum flight time requirements now, the hiring mins for the candidates in ATP's, or even RAA's program are lower than the off-the-street minimums. I know that if I was just starting out and trying to get hired with an airline, I would definitely want to speed up the process of getting hired. ATP and many other flight academies have made that possible.

[DE727UPS]

"ATP's program of discussion is geared toward those who CHOOSE (key word) not to instruct, or are mid-life career changers who don't really have a year to a year and a half to spend instructing to build the hour required by the airlines"

There is no substitute for experience. Just because some are in a life situation that makes having that experience inconvenient doesn't make it right. 500 hours barely makes you legal to fly Grand Canyon tours in a 172 as a professional pilot, but you can be a RJ airline crewmember? Somethings just not right with that picture...

Rather than raise pay and benefits, some regionals would rather keep lowering the bar on hiring requirements. It will be interesting, but sad, to see how low they can take it. Buying your way in at low time sets a bad precedent, I think. The next lowest step is a Gulfstream style setup where the airlines, and not the flight school, makes money off their F/O's. I hope no other regionals decide to stoop that low. Majors, too.