HEF - X-Country

[JBUCREW]

What kind of "trips" can one expect to fly out of HEF during the cross-country portion of the training....

Thanks!

[Airdale]

Every ATP location on the East Coast is fair game. Atlanta, Jax and Raleigh will probably be your most frequent stops. You might get lucky and get to do some flying out west, maybe to Dallas or something. You'll have fun.

[JBUCREW]

Thanks! I have one more question. What is the lowest VIS/CIG that dispatch will send you into.... if there is any? I know that enroute things change fast, but I mean in the planning stage of the flight.

Thanks again!

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by JBUCREW

Thanks! I have one more question. What is the lowest VIS/CIG that dispatch will send you into.... if there is any? I know that enroute things change fast, but I mean in the planning stage of the flight.

Thanks again!

Hmm..good question. I never really got sent into anything too bad, mainly because I had some pretty good weather. As far as mins I think they are a little more restrictive than the part 91 req. BUT, you are the PIC, so you don't have to fly in anything that you don't want to. Sometimes someone from dispatch might want you to fly in conditions that might be questionable, but if they do, its just because they are in the office and they don't know your skills or limitations as a pilot. For example I won't fly into icing conditions. Sounds kind of simple right? But many times during my cross countries, low temps and solid cloud decks made good conditions for icing and I refused to put myself in a situation unless I had a definite way out.

So I wouldn't worry about. Just use your own pilot judgement, including the IMSAFE checklist. No use flying if you're not comfortable, and ATP's dispatch in my opinion did very well and they were very understanding if you didn't want to fly for whatever reason.

[Wilko]

I'm based out of HEF and am on the XCs now. In the past week my flight partner and I have flown to Raleigh and Wilmington, NC, Trenton, Jax, Atlanta a couple of times (I'm here right now, actually) and Knoxville, TN.
As far as weather, you'll need 1,000 and 3SM and dispatch is typically pretty conservative. However, I've picked up ice 3 days in a row and had a pretty harrowing flight over mountains on the way to TN, where we picked up ice, then descended to just above MEA and got bad turbulence. It was a good lesson in exercising your PIC privileges, which include saying no to dispatch if you don't feel comfortable with the flight. That night, we were supposed to push on to Atlanta, but the flight over the mountains really took it out of us so we told them we felt too tired to be safe and dispatch was very accomodating.
They are very careful and will take a look at both your flight plan and weather before giving you a release.
It's good times... when are you starting in HEF?

[Aggie03]

Similar question: How about the XCs out of the Dallas school?

[CRJDriver]

Originally Posted by Aggie03

Similar question: How about the XCs out of the Dallas school?

I was based in SAC, but I did a few flights with a GKY based guy and we flew GKY-NQA-MLU-GKY. You'll probably get to fly out to CRG and maybe out west to IWA and RAL.

[JBUCREW]

WILKO...
I am starting on May 15, are you almost finished or will I see you in HEF?
Thanks for all the helpful info!

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Aggie03

Similar question: How about the XCs out of the Dallas school?

Directly from my logbook at the start of the XC phase:

GKY-CNM-GKY...........Carlsbad NM
GKY-SGF-ARR............Springield, Aurora IL (Chicago)
ARR-SGF-GKY
GKY-NQA-GKY............Old Navy Memphis
GKY-MLU-NQA-GKY.....Monroe LA, Old Navy
GKY-CNM-IWA...........Carlsbad NM, Williams Gateway (PHX)
IWA-RAL-SAC............Riverside CA, Sacramento CA
SAC-SLE-SAC............Salem OR
SAC-RAL-IWA-ELP......Sac, Riverside, Willie, El Paso... Long day!
ELP-MAF-GKY............Midland TX, Home
GKY-AXH-SJT-GKY......Houston Southwest, San Angelo TX
GKY-MEI-CRG.............Meridian MS, Craig (JAX)
CRG-TPF...................Tampa FL, Peter O'Knight
TPF-CRG
CRG-FTY...................Fulton County (ATL)
ATL-CRG...................Citation - High Performance and High Altitude Endorsements
RDU-ATL...................Citation Continued...
FTY-MLU-GKY............ATL, Monroe LA, HOME! What day of the week is it?

True Coast to Coast experience for me! I still think back on those flights and realize how much fun they were and that in all likelihood I may never be able to do something like that again in a light twin.

PS: Your mileage may vary...

Bob

[CRJDriver]

Too lazy to get out my logbook, but my XC phase went something like this...

Week 1:
SAC-RAL-SAC
SAC-RAL-IWA
IWA-CNM-GKY
GKY-NQA-MLU-GKY
GKY-CNM-ELP-IWA
IWA-RAL-SAC
SAC-RAL-SAC

Citation: BWG-GKY

Week 2:
SMF-ONT (Southwest Airlines), RAL-IWA
IWA-CNM-GKY
GKY-MEI-CRG
CRG-LAL-CRG
CRG-MEI-GKY
GKY-CNM-IWA, PHX-SMF (Southwest Airlines)

This was definitely the most fun and rewarding part of the whole program.

[Timbuff10]

Hey Bob, did you have Hirsch for your initial at Peter O'Knight?

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by Timbuff10

Hey Bob, did you have Hirsch for your initial at Peter O'Knight?

Nope... I think I was supposed to, but things changed at the last minute... He's the older guy right? My flight partner Joe had him, very thorough as I recall.

I had Dave Garner. Great guy! (Well I passed didnt I??)

I think there's only two guys that the FSDO allows to do initials out of Tampa and Garner's one... so I guess Hirsch would be the other.

Bob

[Wilko]

Originally Posted by JBUCREW

WILKO...
I am starting on May 15, are you almost finished or will I see you in HEF?
Thanks for all the helpful info!

Hey JB, I'll most likely be completely done with the program by then and heading home. But if I'm not I'll see you there. It's a good location, you'll like it.

[JBUCREW]

Wilko.....

Very cool, must feel pretty good to be almost done! I heard the apartments are the Carlye Station? How are they? And one more quick one, as far as food... did you just eat out or did you buy food for the apartment? Any chance you would come back to HEF as an instructor?

Thanks again for all the info.. its helping a lot!

[Snapadeuce]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Hmm..good question. I never really got sent into anything too bad, mainly because I had some pretty good weather. As far as mins I think they are a little more restrictive than the part 91 req. BUT, you are the PIC, so you don't have to fly in anything that you don't want to. Sometimes someone from dispatch might want you to fly in conditions that might be questionable, but if they do, its just because they are in the office and they don't know your skills or limitations as a pilot. For example I won't fly into icing conditions. Sounds kind of simple right? But many times during my cross countries, low temps and solid cloud decks made good conditions for icing and I refused to put myself in a situation unless I had a definite way out.

So I wouldn't worry about. Just use your own pilot judgement, including the IMSAFE checklist. No use flying if you're not comfortable, and ATP's dispatch in my opinion did very well and they were very understanding if you didn't want to fly for whatever reason.

As far as wx dispatching is concerned, I would only trust Mike. Anyone else who answers the phone when you call dispatch(to my knowledge) is just a CFI waiting to go in the pit or head off to their chosen instructing location. Remember: YOU are the PIC; YOU are the customer! You're paying them for the privilege of shufflling their airplanes around the system. These are training flights; I can't think of one compelling reason to fly a Seminole into bad wx.

[Timbuff10]

Yeah I had Hirsch and it was a long checkride but I guess all initials are. I dominated too until I had to land on that short runway at Peter O'knight that starts right at the edge of the water. When we landed, he said, "well you did great all day long till you screwed it up on that last landing". I thought I was getting the pink slipped but after I tied downt he plane and went inside, he was waiting to shake my hand. Told me to land on the longer runway next time and don't listen to the guy in the other seat so much.

[NYer914]

Originally Posted by Snapadeuce

As far as wx dispatching is concerned, I would only trust Mike. Anyone else who answers the phone when you call dispatch(to my knowledge) is just a CFI waiting to go in the pit or head off to their chosen instructing location. Remember: YOU are the PIC; YOU are the customer! You're paying them for the privilege of shufflling their airplanes around the system. These are training flights; I can't think of one compelling reason to fly a Seminole into bad wx.

I would say you are NOT an ATP instructor....

[Sodbuster]

Originally Posted by NYer914

I would say you are NOT an ATP instructor....

I'd agree with that statement 100%.

[desertdog71]

I have a question, This will come across as negative and I am sure someone will flame me for it, but I don't care. I am just trying to understand something for myself.

If you are flying mainly XC and with a partner all the time, how much actual manuever work, landings, emergency situations, and that sort of training do you get there? I am just wanting to know if you feel you are getting sufficient exposure with the time you are actually controlling the aircraft?

Of the 200 or so hours of Twin time, how much is as sole manipulator?
Do you feel like this is enough training?
I get the whole safety pilot thing, but is this 200 hours each or total?
I make no implication that this is good or bad, I want opinions on how this works is all.

[Captain_Bob]

Not negative at all... I had similar questions before I started...

1. To answer your first question... XC time is XC time. Not manuever, emergency practice, or training time. You are simply fulfilling the qualifications of the FARS to be eligible for your Commercial.

2. Significant exposure to controlling the aircraft will come in your Multi Add-on, and Instrument Training phase, in addition to the training for commercial manuevers, and CFI Manuevers. Trust me on this... you will be able to handle the seminole better than you would want to... and you will welcome the XC's because you actually get to get out of the training environment and enjoy the exposure to other airways, approaches, airports, terrain, weather, and airspace than what you are accustomed to.

3. The vast majority of your time is as sole manipulator... only the time that you split with your training partner on XC's is not... which boils down to around 35 +/- hours as SP. Don't knock this time either... watching somebody under the hood lets you see mistakes the other person is making way before they do... and heightens your own awareness and knowledge of mistakes not to make.

4. Is this enough for training? I certainly thought so.

5. 200 hours each or total? I refer youto this off the website:

Flight Time

• 200 Hours Logged Time
• 190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
  • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
  • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
    & Flight Checks
  • Citation Jet Transition
  • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
• 10 Hours Single-Engine Time

Logged times vary slightly due to flight check times and other considerations. Prices and flight times are subject to change, but not during your training program.

Only the 75 hours XC time is split... the rest is PIC/Sole Manip. with the exception of your initial Multi Training which will be @ 6-8 hours.

5. Yes... it works: http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements/

Hope that helps,

Bob

[Timbuff10]

I agree, I felt totally comfortable in that plane by the time I did my 3rd cross country. That is real life flying that most flight schools can't offer. I think the cross country phase is where you totally build your confidence and in a way you are acting like a CFI there. I felt like I owned that plane when I went in for my Multi-Commercial.

I had some people try to take me to bad places when I was the non flying pilot and if you don't watch them they will take you to the bad places. I thought the safety pilot thing was a scam way of getting around the requirements until I figured out that it can be even more productive than being the Pilot Flying.

[desertdog71]

Sounds good. I just didn't know how people felt about it, after going through the process.

Thanks for the informative replies.

[CRJDriver]

I agree with Captain_Bob and Timbuff10! The XC phase was definitely the most fun and exciting part of the whole ACPP. Plus, I think it gives you a preview of what it's like flying for an airline. Being on the road for 4+ days, living out of a suitecase and sleeping in a different town/bed every night. Personally, I loved it! It was great flying in different parts of the country, plus the guys from ABQ Center were always fun and entertaining

[adreamer]

I had some people try to take me to bad places when I was the non flying pilot and if you don't watch them they will take you to the bad places. I thought the safety pilot thing was a scam way of getting around the requirements until I figured out that it can be even more productive than being the Pilot Flying.

The best example - My flying partner said "Let's flying into that cloud and see how bumpy it is." That particular cloud bank was part of Tropical storm system. I might be a little bit chicken. However, I rather safe than sorry.

adreamer

[Tram]

Originally Posted by adreamer

The best example - My flying partner said "Let's flying into that cloud and see how bumpy it is." That particular cloud bank was part of Tropical storm system. I might be a little bit chicken. However, I rather safe than sorry.

adreamer

Boy, I bet you were poppin' Halls like they were goin outta style..

The cross country phase was fun and is totally what you make of it.. I have heard rumors of Seminoles landing at grass strips, etc..


I felt pretty comfy with the Seminole when I got done with the 90 day program.. Although, I was actually laying in bed last night thinking about what the panel looked like.. and I couldn't remember... Thaat silly airplane only has 1 of everything..