How many hours....

[nkoenig]

Do you actually log? How much is actual mult time etc?

[frog_flyer]

oh the wonders of research

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airli...ram/index.html

[Captain_Bob]

Specifically look in the right hand margin of that webpage for this info:

Flight Time

• 200 Hours Logged Time
• 190 Hours Multi-Engine Time
  • 75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country
  • 65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction
    & Flight Checks
  • Citation Jet Transition
  • 50 Hours Multi-Engine FTD
• 10 Hours Single-Engine Time

The only thing not specific is the Jet time. It was 3 hours when I attended 2 years ago, and is part of the 75 hours ME XC Total.

Bob

[will_fly_for_bandwith]

Can you break it down further ?

75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country..
All 75 as multi PIC? Dont you have a X-country partner, I dont think he can log as SIC as the aircraft flown dosen't require a type rating.

65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks
CFI, IR, Multi Checks are PIC if passed....
How is it logged during IR training in a multi.... PIC ? or Dual ?


Thanks !

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by will_fly_for_bandwith

Can you break it down further ?

75 Hours Multi-Engine Cross-Country..
All 75 as multi PIC? Dont you have a X-country partner, I dont think he can log as SIC as the aircraft flown dosen't require a type rating.

You are correct... can't log SIC. You can log PIC as a safety pilot and that is how this program and most other pilot schools do time building.

Originally Posted by will_fly_for_bandwith

65 Hours Multi-Engine Instruction & Flight Checks
CFI, IR, Multi Checks are PIC if passed....
How is it logged during IR training in a multi.... PIC ? or Dual ?

Thanks !

All Multi hours are PIC with the exception of your initial multi training... typically @ 6 hours. Every other training event and checkride in the seminole, once you have your multi... is PIC. PIC and Dual Received if an instructor is with you.

Bob

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Captain_Bob

You are correct... can't log SIC. You can log PIC as a safety pilot and that is how this program and most other pilot schools do time building.

Sorry, but it certainly can be logged SIC. The two pilots must decide, before the flight, which pilot is going to be PIC when the Pilot Flying is under the hood. The typical scenario, which you are talking about, is when the safety pilot agrees to be In Charge while the other pilot is under the hood, thus the safety pilot logs PIC. It is entirely possible, and completely legal, for them to decide (for whatever reason) that the pilot under the hood is going to remain In Charge, in which case the safety pilot can log SIC time. It's legit, too.

[nkoenig]

So no matter what happens ie safety pilot etc, everything they have listed on there site is time that you will recieve correct?

[Captain_Bob]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Sorry, but it certainly can be logged SIC. The two pilots must decide, before the flight, which pilot is going to be PIC when the Pilot Flying is under the hood. The typical scenario, which you are talking about, is when the safety pilot agrees to be In Charge while the other pilot is under the hood, thus the safety pilot logs PIC. It is entirely possible, and completely legal, for them to decide (for whatever reason) that the pilot under the hood is going to remain In Charge, in which case the safety pilot can log SIC time. It's legit, too.

Hi Steve,

I wasn't familiar with that particular FAR... Thanks for the clarification. In any case... I'm wondering why anyone would log it as SIC?

nkoenig,

To answer your question... Yes.

Bob

[Van_Hoolio]

Originally Posted by nkoenig

So no matter what happens ie safety pilot etc, everything they have listed on there site is time that you will recieve correct?

That was the one thing I didn't like about ATP's marketing approach was the quote of 190 hours multiengine time. The 50 hours of simulator time included in that figure is good valuable training time that helps meet the instrument and commercial requirements, but no pilot would dare include that with their total multiengine time on their resume. The only column in my logbook that sim time went in was the simulator column, nowhere else.

That said, I knew that before I decided to go to ATP, and I'm still happy with my decision to go to ATP. When you are done with the program you will have your MEI which will open doors for you to get more multi time and make up for any percieved shortcoming of multi-engine hours.

Mike

[Tram]

Originally Posted by SteveC

It is entirely possible, and completely legal, for them to decide (for whatever reason) that the pilot under the hood is going to remain In Charge, in which case the safety pilot can log SIC time. It's legit, too.

Legal.. yehh....
1000% pointless.. no doubt...

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Tram

Legal.. yehh....
1000% pointless.. no doubt...

Pointless? Not necessarily. I can think of a few occasions where it might be prudent for the flying pilot to remain PIC (operationally, not just for logging purposes). For example, the safety pilot has zero time in the model of plane being flown and really is along just as the set of eyes to watch out the window for traffic. I would not want someone unfamiliar with my airplane to be the one "In Charge" if bad things were to start happening. On the flip side, I would not want to be the safety pilot that was unfamiliar with a plane, then catch the blame when the Pilot Flying does something that bends metal.

Many people don't realize it, but this is really a CRM issue. Did you ever notice that there is a little discussion held when going for a check ride where the DPE makes a point of talking about who is PIC for the flight? Same thing when talking about whether a Safety Pilot is PIC or SIC. Two pilots in the front seats without a very clear delineation of "who does what" can be a problem.

Is it likely that something will happen where this is an issue? Nope. Do I think it is a big deal that pilots don't talk about PIC vs SIC when doing Instrument work with a Safety Pilot? Nope. Is it pointless? No, I think the topic is, at the very least, worth thinking about. PIC vs SIC - "words mean something".

[Tram]

Yeh, I see what your saying.. In your example, it's not pointless at all..

However.. in the situation referenced above.. it's pointless for the guy playing safety pilot to log SIC, as he will be familiar with the aircraft...

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Tram

Yeh, I see what your saying.. In your example, it's not pointless at all..

However.. in the situation referenced above.. it's pointless for the guy playing safety pilot to log SIC, as he will be familiar with the aircraft...

Well.......

What if the guy flying is a real tool and I (as the safety pilot), don't want the responsibility in case he does something stupid? I would prefer to have a history of logging SIC time with this dude when it comes time to prove to the Feds that it wasn't my responsibilty that he turned in front of that departing 737 when executing that missed approach. Might be tough to deny being PIC when the last six flights had been logged that way.

Just things to think about....

[Tram]

Ahh good point..

However, if he turned into the path of an oncomming 737 - would they blame you at all if you logged PIC while he was "under the hood?"

I guess what I'm asking is - does the action of being the "PIC safety pilot" make you liable for his silly actions?

Originally Posted by SteveC

Well.......
Might be tough to deny being PIC when the last six flights had been logged that way.

Just things to think about....

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Tram

Ahh good point..

However, if he turned into the path of an oncomming 737 - would they blame you at all if you logged PIC while he was "under the hood?"

I guess what I'm asking is - does the action of being the "PIC safety pilot" make you liable for his silly actions?

If he was under the hood when he did his stupid move, and you have agreed to be PIC.....then you have the responsibility. That's why it's called Pilot In Command. Yeah, it could be your ticket. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

I don't know about you, but I could come up with lots of other scenarios where a dofus pilot under the hood could screw up and put your certificate on the line. Worth thinking about the next time you agree to be PIC when doing safety pilot duties, eh? Maybe SIC safety pilot time doesn't sound quite so pointless?

[Tram]

Oh, yeh.. if your both in the airplane when it happens sure..

I thought you were saying - You flew as PIC with him under the hood, then later he went out and did something stupid without you in the A/C..