Considering ATP, but also Monarch Air

[Jassen]

I found a link to jetcareers.com over on the AOPA forums, and have been reading for over 4 hours straight since then.

I am 27 years old and, even though well into my career, have decided to follow my lifelong dream and make a significant career change. I just went through a divorce, yada yada, so the timing is right.

I have already been approved for a Key loan to ATP for the full $57,000 for both the PPL and ACPP and I plan to quit my job for a November or December start.

I can transfer the Key loan elsehwere, and I recently discovered Monarch Air down in Dallas, flying out of Addison, also an ATP site. Monarch (http://www.monarchair.com) has a two-part program for basically $30k that would get me about 250 hours and all the ratings through CFII/MEI, but the vast majority of that time is single-engine, compared with the over 100 hours of multi-engine PIC time at ATP.

Does anybody know anything about Monarch Air, good/bad/indifferent?

If I went that route, I could obtain the additional multi-engine time to "catch up" for about $15k, which would bring me in $9k LESS than the ATP program at the newly posted rate increases.

Is there anything else about the ATP program that I should consider that would be beneficial over Monarch + ME time?

Also, it appears as though there was bad sentiment on this forum towards the Manassas location for ATP. Is this still the consensus?

For people that have been through the Fast Track programs: I am also a part-time graduate student via online courses for my Master's degree. I had originally considered the 60-day PPL and 90-day ACPP, but these might be incompatible with my graduate studies. If I pursued the Fast Track options, is there any possibility that I would be able to eek out 10-12 hours per week to do homework for my grad classes?

Last question: If I did the Self-Paced program at ATP, I would probably do it at Portland. Anybody know which airport in the Portland area is used? I'm assuming it's not PDX. Also, what is the quality of instruction there versus other centers?

I realize this is a long post for a first timer, but I have decided I'm going to do this come heck or high water, and I'm trying to very rapidly finalize the details.

Thank you!
-Jassen
Boulder, Colorado

[Matt777]

[ QUOTE ]
I am 27 years old and, even though well into my career, have decided to follow my lifelong dream and make a significant career change...

If I went that route, I could obtain the additional multi-engine time to "catch up" for about $15k, which would bring me in $9k LESS than the ATP program at the newly posted rate increases...


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 28 and I'm sick of crappy jobs too! I just got my Private License a couple weeks ago at the local FBO because I didn't know about ATP when I started.

If you start prior to October 31 I don't think you have to pay the $4,000 rate increase...?

[ QUOTE ]

... If I pursued the Fast Track options, is there any possibility that I would be able to eek out 10-12 hours per week to do homework for my grad classes?


[/ QUOTE ]

If the answer is yes I will be REALLY surprised!

[ QUOTE ]

Last question: If I did the Self-Paced program at ATP, I would probably do it at Portland. Anybody know which airport in the Portland area is used? I'm assuming it's not PDX. Also, what is the quality of instruction there versus other centers?

I realize this is a long post for a first timer, but I have decided I'm going to do this come heck or high water, and I'm trying to very rapidly finalize the details.

Thank you!
-Jassen
Boulder, Colorado

[/ QUOTE ]


Looking at this page http://www.atpflightschool.com/flying/index.html it shows that their school in Oregon is "SLE"- Salem. I don't understand why they call it "Portland" either, since Portland and Salem are not at all close to each other.

That's all I know. I'm just hanging out here to learn too.

I'm going to call for my phone interview on Monday!

Everyone else here knows a lot more about ATP than I do- you'll get lots of responses tomorrow.

[UND_Flyer]

Jassen,

Wlecome to Jetcareers.com! I did the 90 day Airline Career Pilot Porgram at ATP not too long ago at the Sacramento location. I would be more than happy to answer some of your questions...

First off, I have never heard of Monarch Air, so I can't compare them to ATP. If you decide to do the self-paced program in Portland, which is actually Salem, OR, you will be very happy. It is a nice airport, and the instructor out there, Jesse, is great! I would also recommend looking at Sacramento Anyway, ATP is a good choice, if you have any more questions post them here.

[Jassen]

Thanks for the warm welcome, folks. Much appreciated.

A lot of my friends and family are thinking I've gone off the deep end for even considering going so far in debt just so I can (hopefully) get a job that will most likely pay only half what my salary is now, but big whoop.

Thanks for letting me know about the instructor in Salem, OR. If I do go there, it would be sight unseen. Do you know anything about what aircraft they have there? Also, if it's only one instructor there, is he pretty book up?

I think my main hiccup right now with just doing it is the cost. With the recently posted fuel surcharges, it comes to $54,000.

I just spoke with a couple folks at Monarch Air, and got more cost data from them and ran the numbers. Since I would have to do additional training to add on MEII (which is included at ATP), plus extra indivdual hours to gain back all the multi-engine PIC time that ATP gives you, plus their recently-added fuel surcharges, and I'd be looking at close to $52,500. I have no idea what it would cost to get the 3 hours in the Citation, but that's just sort of a bonus in my mind. So, the cost difference between the two is negligible almost, and the time frame, even on the self-paced deal at ATP, is faster at ATP.

OK, so that decision is made.

Thanks for the help, guys!
-Jassen

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of my friends and family are thinking I've gone off the deep end for even considering going so far in debt just so I can (hopefully) get a job that will most likely pay only half what my salary is now, but big whoop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that there are quite a few people on this board that would agree with your friends and family. Well, not in agreement about the "going off the deep end", but at least advising against taking out huge loans. I've seen quite a few posts from people that are struggling to make loan payments on top of normal living expenses while making CFI or regional FO wages, and many of them are saying that they wished they had taken a little bit longer to finish their training and did more pay-as-you-go rather than take the big debt. The slight delay in instant gratification is more than offset by piece of mind (financially) and stress reduction.

[Jassen]

I would tend to agree on that, for the most part. I consider myself fortunate that, if I absolutely have to, I can come back to my current career (nuclear stuff) a year from now and once again be making more money than most regional airline pilots. I'd rather not, but the option is there. I may even end up doing part-time nuclear consulting or something and part-time flight instructing to build hours and also keep me afloat financially.

One of the biggest drawbacks to ATP for is the fact that I have over $25,000 of GI Bill money left to "burn" and they are not 141/VA approved. However, a couple hours ago I learned of a school called Ari-Ben Aviator that IS 141/VA approved AND is $20,000 cheaper than ATP, so I am looking at several forums discussing them. Being able to use my GI Bill could conceivably cut my loan amount in half.

Take care!
-Jassen

[Matt777]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the biggest drawbacks to ATP for is the fact that I have over $25,000 of GI Bill money left to "burn" and they are not 141/VA approved. However, a couple hours ago I learned of a school called Ari-Ben Aviator that IS 141/VA approved AND is $20,000 cheaper than ATP, so I am looking at several forums discussing them. Being able to use my GI Bill could conceivably cut my loan amount in half.

Take care!
-Jassen

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend, DE727UPS, a poster here who is a UPS pilot recommended Mazzei to me, but I had already taken out my KeyBank loan for a local FBO- and KeyBank doesn't finance Mazzei so I can't switch. So I will switch to ATP as I had been planning to do prior to finding out that Mazzei existed.

Mazzei and ATP both guarantee a fixed cost to complete your training and provide free housing- so those are the two I was able to consider.
Since SallyMae has outrageous loan fees (and also repayment fees!!) I will not be going to Mazzei.

I'm posting to say that Mazzei is 141, because subpilot told me so in this thread I've linked to...

Mazzei's program is about twice as long as ATP's. I think it is a little cheaper but you get something like 55 hours multi. But you get a free apartment for twice as long. They are in Fresno, CA.

http://jetcareers.com/forums/showfla...t=5#Post326862
about Mazzei:

Me: What made you choose Mazzei over ATP?

Subpilot: The truth is that I had VA benefits from being in the military which pays 60% of my training cost; however, you must be in a 141 program to get the money and ATP is only pt61.

[Merlin]

Jason,

Im from Dallas and went to Monarch to get current again as a private pilot after a long layoff with about 100 hours. Shortly after I began flying at Monarch, I discovered ATP and never looked back. I am now flying for ExpressJet and at the time of my ExpressJet interview, my instructor at Monarch was still there flying single engine Cessna's around.

Here's the deal with Monarch... they are simply an FBO. The largest in Dallas, no doubt, but an FBO nonetheless. All their prices are by the hour and are based on you taking the exact number of hours to get through their program. THAT NEVER HAPPENS. Your flights, instead of being an hour long each, will end up being 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4. Those little points add up real fast. Furthermore, the Addision Airport is the busiest towered, single runway airport in the nation. You will frequently burn 15-20 minutes just waiting the take off.

ATP on the other hand is flat rate, so the worry about how much this day is costing you is moot. Also, ATP instructors are paid a salary vs. hourly and thus have no incentive to fly a tenth or two longer to eek out a few extra bucks. In fact, ATP instructors are penalized fairly severely for exceeding the allocated amount of time for each training pairing.

FBO training is just fine and Monarch is very good and successful at it. I would recommend anyone to them who wanted to be a private pilot. But, if you want to be an airline pilot and you want to get there in the shortest amount of time possible, then ATP is the place to do it. Period.

Good luck,
Jeremy

BTW: ATP is part 61 because it gives them the flexibility to model their training program as they see fit and removes the government regulated overhead and paperwork of following the 141 rules. They couldn't do what they do in the time and price if they were a 141 school.

[Captain_Bob]

Perusing the forums Merlin? You must have some spare time on your hands!

Bob

[pokin]

Yeah, Jeremy. Tough "break".

[SATXaviator]

Jeremy,

What's that old Hollywood saying for good luck?

[ryanmickG]

[ QUOTE ]


FBO training is just fine and Monarch is very good and successful at it. I would recommend anyone to them who wanted to be a private pilot. But, if you want to be an airline pilot and you want to get there in the shortest amount of time possible, then ATP is the place to do it. Period.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm Sorry but that is a very mis-informative statement to make to an aspiring pilot. Monarch is as good as place as any to become a pro pilot , just as good as ATP or any other academy. It has been said on these forums before and I'll say it again, A good instructor beats a good flight school everytime. I'm sure Monarch puts out alot of good pro pilots.

BTW some people still like flying "single-engine Cessna's"around.

Beware of the smoke and mirrors.

[Captain_Bob]

hank1292 wrote:[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line on getting a pro job is not which school you go to. No where on your ticket will it say Skymates or ATP or FS etc. When it comes down to getting you a job you have to have the ticket, the flight time and do well on the interveiw. Short cuts to your dream job are advertising...

Best thing to do is go visit the schools your are considering and go with your gut. Don't get sucked in by smoke and mirrors to burning a ton of cash. It wont help you in the long run.

There are former students/instructors from Skymates working at Eagle, Mesa, COEX, Ameristar (135 freight) and corporate jobs to list a few.

[/ QUOTE ] I liked this post and thought it relative to this situation.

Yes... Ryan, I believe that Skymates has a great school and some really great instructors. I know about 5 of them (past & present) personally including yourself. You guys are great!

But I don't think that Merlin was stating that Monarch or Skymates doesn't put out pro-pilots... rather I believe he was referring to the timeline aspect. Like it or not... (and sometimes I didn't like it as a student) ATP puts you on a very rigid timeline from start to finish. They have a program and a formula that has worked well for them.

For example: in the past several months ATP has seen students go from 0 time to Airline in 12-14 months or less... Some ACPP students in even a shorter period of time.

In an industry where Seniority can make or break your career that is a huge advantage. And I think that is the spirit of Merlin's post.

Bob
PS: Is "Smoke and Mirrors" the Buzz phrase for the fellow competition on the field?

[Merlin]

[ QUOTE ]
You must have some spare time on your hands!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Tough "break".


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
What's that old Hollywood saying for good luck?

[/ QUOTE ]



You guys are incorrigible.

Oh! My leg, (my best to Jan Brady)
Jeremy

[Captain_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are incorrigible.

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know how they found out.. Don't worry... everyone is actually jeolous of your new "Paid" vacation.

[Tram]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


FBO training is just fine and Monarch is very good and successful at it. I would recommend anyone to them who wanted to be a private pilot. But, if you want to be an airline pilot and you want to get there in the shortest amount of time possible, then ATP is the place to do it. Period.



[/ QUOTE ]

I'm Sorry but that is a very mis-informative statement to make to an aspiring pilot. Monarch is as good as place as any to become a pro pilot , just as good as ATP or any other academy. It has been said on these forums before and I'll say it again, A good instructor beats a good flight school everytime. I'm sure Monarch puts out alot of good pro pilots.

BTW some people still like flying "single-engine Cessna's"around.

Beware of the smoke and mirrors.

[/ QUOTE ]


While I will agree with you, an airline pilot can come from anywhere and the flight school you attended doesn't make you one.. I wasn't going to say anything at all, but it urks me to see someone take something someone said waay out of context.. Did Jeremy ever state that ATP was the only flight school or that Monarch was a bad choice? I didn't see it, if he did.. I do however think he said "quickest" and as far as I know, very few people can take you from where ATP takes you in the amount of time they do it in..

Is ATP the only choice? Of course not, there are many flight schools to choose from, many of them being great schools that put out great pilots, like you said, the instructor makes the training worthwhile, not the physical school you attend..

However, can Monarch provide this guy with the same program in the same time frame and at the same cost as ATP?

Speaking of smoke and mirrors and misinformative statements, regardless of how much you or I enjoy flying singles or not, the fact is we all know how valuable multi time is at this point in the game just as well as we all know how well every extra hour of single time helps your resume stand out..

[Varig_777]

I currently attend Monarch Air in Addison and thought I would contribute.

Monarch is an excellent flight school for what it offers, and that is single engine flight training with minimal multi. In fact I believe Monarch is the best flight school in the area and one of the best in the country in that category.

Now, as has been stated before you need Multi time to get hired by airlines. Simply put, you will not get very much multi time as an instructor at Monarch. As a student you will only have roughly 11 hours of multi after your checkride. As an instructer you would be lucky to get 12 hours a month...very lucky.

Now, I hear and read about ATP students moving on the the airlines after 12, 13, 14 months of starting their training. Meanwhile Monarch has instructors who have been INSTRUCTING for over 1 year, some going on 2 1/2 years and have no interview even on the horizon.

That is not a reflection on the quality of flight training at Monarch. Like I said before, Monarch offers SUPERB training. But the reality is that they have only 1 twin, and you will not get very much multi time.

On the other hand, ATP offers something like 200 hours of Multi during training alone, and God knows how many more during instructing. So if your goal is the airlines, it comes down to a matter of facts. And fact is that ATP will get you to the airlines MUCH quicker than Monarch.

[ryanmickG]

Agree with all your statements and belive me I am in no way bashing ATP. As Captain Bob knows I have great friends that attended the school. And I will also agree that if you want to get to the airlines FAST then ATP is hard to beat. I dont think its going to give you any better training than any other flight school in the country.

I understand the point merlin was trying to make, and its wansn't ATP rules Monarch sucks. It did kinda came off as Monarch is a good place to just get your private and thats it.

The smoke and mirrors comment is not directed toward the career program of ATP, but the other programs like direct track.

And yes multi time is important but is their much of a difference between 200 hours of PA-44 time and 800?

[Tram]

[ QUOTE ]
is their much of a difference between 200 hours of PA-44 time and 800?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the obvious answer is... Yes, about 600 hours worth..

The hidden answer is also.. Yes..

Let's say Joe Schmo goes for a job with 1000 total time, 200 multi.. 800 single.. and Ben Dover goes for a job with 1000 total time, 800 multi, 200 single..

The job is for a pilot flying a light twin.. Who you gonna hire?

[ryanmickG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is their much of a difference between 200 hours of PA-44 time and 800?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the obvious answer is... Yes, about 600 hours worth..

The hidden answer is also.. Yes..

Let's say Joe Schmo goes for a job with 1000 total time, 200 multi.. 800 single.. and Ben Dover goes for a job with 1000 total time, 800 multi, 200 single..

The job is for a pilot flying a light twin.. Who you gonna hire?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still dont think it matters. When you fly an PA-44 around for 200 hours you should have mastered the systems of that airplane ( I hope). I think anything over 200 is pretty much window dressing. I think an airline would be more impressed if you have a good variety Cessna, Piper, Beech, Cirrus, of all types twin and single.

IMO I would be more impressed with someone used to studing different systems.

And i'm not talking about myself I've got about 1800 tt, 650multi (all PA-44 )

[Captain_Bob]

The multi was an issue in my hiring class but it was a different emphasis.

The issue was #1: Do you meet the Mins? Usually 200Multi. and #2: How current was your Multi Time?

There were guys with well over the multi mins... but they got sent home because they didn't have any multi in the last 6 months.

So... at least in my situation it didn't matter if it was 200 or 800 as long as you met the mins and you were current in multi hours at the time of the interview... and... you knew the systems and procedures "up and down" of your Multi.

Bob

[Tram]

True, I guess..

I think your are right, it's much better to have several birds, rather than 1 or 2 in the log book.. I personally try and get into as many different types as I can..

[ryanmickG]

[ QUOTE ]
True, I guess..

I think your are right, it's much better to have several birds, rather than 1 or 2 in the log book.. I personally try and get into as many different types as I can..

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too

Not just to pad my resume but I like the thrill of getting in new aircraft its very refreshing jumping into a V-tail or something it beats...

"75 rotate..blueline 88 climb... 500 feet pitch 100...1000 feet square it out....yada yada yada. Next flight please. "

[Feable]

I used to live and work in Addison and have experience with Monarch. When I first decided to become a CFI, I first went to Monarch. I was having a difficult time trying to complete my CFI and work also. I could never schedule the time off. Then I found out about ATP and came to JAX for two weeks and completed my MEI, MEII, and CFI-SE add on.

I now work for ATP and enjoy it very much. This is a great place to be. That being said, I'm not gonna bash Monarch. I flew with some great guys there.

What it comes down to, find a place to fly that fits your needs. Would I fly at Monarch again, you betcha. Am I happy with ATP, heck yah! Hope this helps some.