ATP groundschooling

[jayllamas]

What kind of ground school does ATP provide for their 90 day program?

[GaTechKid]

Except for the CFI portion, nothing formal or structured. Studying is on your own and there are daily quizzes and a CFI workbook that you must complete during the program that ensure you are meeting that obligation. Your instructor will mainly be there to answer any questions, clarify concepts and ideas, and provide guidance on what you should be studying.

[BobDDuck]

To add to that.... There is a lot of self study. However, I normally did about 40 or so hours of ground for the instrument rating with my career pilots. There is no real standard, but 30 to 50 hours seemed to be the normal amount. Now, most of this ground isn't teaching new concepts, but rather go over in more depth/clarifying things that the student had already read about.

[skyhawk39]

[ QUOTE ]
Except for the CFI portion, nothing formal or structured

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call getting that CFI Ground school book in the mail formal or structured....expect to sit in class for 30-32 hours during the CFI just reading things out of the book that you filled in. Basically you spend a butt load of money for a self study course on CFI 'ground'...teaching is minimal if you have any other background in aviation or flight training beyond ATP

[BobDDuck]

What I wonder about is what people are excpecting for "ground schooling" at the CFI level. The ONLY new thing is how to TEACH the information (FOI stuff) which really has to be learned from experience. All the other stuff is just review for a commercial pilot. The way the 14 day course works (or CFI school for the ACPs) is a facilitated review of the information needed plus (sometimes) a pretty good hashing of the part 61 stuff. There are a lot of people out there that bitch and moan about the fact that they didn't get any "actual" ground school. I'm not really sure what they are looking to learn as they should really know it already. Blah. Enough of my ranting. I'm going to sleep.

Ethan

[skyhawk39]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a lot of people out there that bitch and moan about the fact that they didn't get any "actual" ground school. I'm not really sure what they are looking to learn as they should really know it already

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and let's see..you'll pay to have a CFI in the left seat that, in my case (and after talking to a lot of other people on my line it seems to be an ATP standard), had way, way less hours total and multi time than I have and was an absolute waste of money when it came to input for the flight. I didn't pass the checkride because of the merits of my flight instructor that's for sure...it was a damn joke.. I could have taken someone off the street and told them, "while I'm under this here hood you keep an eye out for other airplanes" and come out money ahead.

I've had several CFI's from ATP fly with me as my FO when they were undergoing IOE at my line and I'll tell you what, after attending the CFI school I see why they act like they do online. You may think you know it all and were taught it all at ATP but you'll find out your a damn ways from it.

Proper instrcution in the FOI area was nonexistent, as was actually working with some of the guys that were new to the teaching process in the airplane. Most of what I saw was a pilot getting told by one instructor "ah you're ok" and then getting nailed by the DE because they were never taught the way to teach by the instructors. There needs to be a lot of inprovement in the way the syllabus is constrcuted and taught. There's a whole 'nother thread on the problems of ATP people can look at to see what I mean.

Maybe because I had a lot more time before going to ATP at quality schools and online I didn't see why people drank the ATP Kool-aid so readily.

BLAH ! Enough of my ranting...don't like it TOO BAD !

[BrettInLJ]

skyhawk39 - I notice you're a new user. Can you tell us your background, such as where you did your training before, what you are doing now, etc. Did you just do the CFI 15-hour program at ATP? I am looking around and do have my concerns about accelerated training and the quality of instruction. It's important that a CFI want to teach, not just build time. On the other hand, there is at least one CFI program graduate I know that is teaching at a very well known flight school in socal that would not hire anyone who was below average, or probably even average for that matter. I also notice that many ATP graduates seem to move on to the regionals. I am finishing up my commercial training soon, so I'm more concerned about the CFI training specificially.

[Airdale]

I see alot of issues about ATP on here, but I can't help but to think that these issues that people bring up are stemed from what ATP's program is all about. Its NOT a "hold my hand and wipe my ass" kind of school, pardon the phrase. Its the kind of school for people who are self motivated to learn the material on their own, do the "homework" on their own, and be on their way to the ratings they want and need, in much less time and money than you would spend at another school.

I signed up, placed a deposit down for the 60 day Private program and 90 day career program. Less than a week after I put my deposit down, a box full of books and material showed up at my doorstep. I received the complete Jeppesen PPL material, the complete FAA test knowledge guides and an awesome DVD course from King Schools. To go with this, I was given a challenge by ATP to have my PPL written test passed prior to my start date. On top of that I'm active duty military with a full time schedule and a fiance to attend to. Yet, 3 weeks later I'm scheduled to take my PPL written test and I'm ready for it, I scored a 93% on the practice test. For somebody like me, I don't need people to hold my hand. I've wanted to be a commercial pilot since I was a little kid, so the determination is already there. I know I have the brains to get it done and I've dedicated the majority of my free time to learn everything I need to "Ground School" wise. So that when I show up at ATP, with my written test already past, I can say "Show me what I need to know in the airplane". Simple as that. And I will have my ratings for half the cost and half time with ATP by being able to do the "ground school" on my own.
What constitutes ground school anyway? Sitting in a classroom dazing off looking out the windows while some instructor talks in a monotone voice about blah blah blah? Nope, I'm sorry, I'd rather use the MANY tools out there, readily available to us thanks to technology and save myself a ton of money by learning on my own. My 4 years in the military and I've earned 25 college credits by taking correspondence courses. No instructor, no boring speeches. Just me, the material I need to learn and the resources to do it.

ATP is not for everyone. If you want to sit in a classroom for 8 hours a day and be spoon fed information about how P-factor is only a factor at high angles of attack, and how Towering Cumulous clouds indicate a building Thunderstorm, go ahead. But you'll pay for it and your flight time will build slowly. Use your brain, use your resources and you'll learn a lot more. We're pilots, we're supposed to be atop of the gene pool when it comes to brains and skill. We're supposed to be highly intelligent folks in society who defy gravity and fly sophisticated machines. If you can't teach yourself about the machines we fly and the environment that we fly in, then maybe you shouldn't be flying airplanes.

My 2 cents.

Btw, I have 27 hours TT, 20 of which is solo. All prior to my military service.

[BB300]

Very nice reply Airdale!

[BrettInLJ]

[ QUOTE ]

ATP is not for everyone. If you want to sit in a classroom for 8 hours a day and be spoon fed information about how P-factor is only a factor at high angles of attack, and how Towering Cumulous clouds indicate a building Thunderstorm, go ahead. But you'll pay for it and your flight time will build slowly. Use your brain, use your resources and you'll learn a lot more. We're pilots, we're supposed to be atop of the gene pool when it comes to brains and skill. We're supposed to be highly intelligent folks in society who defy gravity and fly sophisticated machines. If you can't teach yourself about the machines we fly and the environment that we fly in, then maybe you shouldn't be flying airplanes.
My 2 cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the most important things to know as a pilot is that you don't know jack. This is not to mean you shouldn't be confident of course. Always have this attitude and think of every rating as a license to learn more. You do need some intelligence of course, but attitude is as much if not more important. An attitude that is conservative safety wise, and one where you know and respect your limitations. Learning the techniques and skills is one thing, but there is no shortcut to experience. The best ground school I ever had was a whole semester at a community college taught by a 30,000+ hour corporate pilot and former military instructor and retired ariline pilot. Some of the anecdotes he had relating to the subject he was covering really hit home. I feel like I got some benefit from his years of experience because he taught so much above and beyond normal PPL ground material.

[Airdale]

[ QUOTE ]

One of the most important things to know as a pilot is that you don't know jack. This is not to mean you shouldn't be confident of course. Always have this attitude and think of every rating as a license to learn more. You do need some intelligence of course, but attitude is as much if not more important. An attitude that is conservative safety wise, and one where you know and respect your limitations. Learning the techniques and skills is one thing, but there is no shortcut to experience. The best ground school I ever had was a whole semester at a community college taught by a 30,000+ hour corporate pilot and former military instructor and retired ariline pilot. Some of the anecdotes he had relating to the subject he was covering really hit home. I feel like I got some benefit from his years of experience because he taught so much above and beyond normal PPL ground material.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutely correct and you make a good point. There is no substitute for experience. I see it everyday in the Coast Guard. We have new members coming in fresh out of boot camp, they are given a deadline to learn the required material to meet the "minimum" requirements to be certified as a boat crew member. The key word here is minimum. Because you can not expect a freshly qualifed boat crewman to know how to handle a stressful rescue situation. Or how a freshly qualified Boarding Officer will know how to handle an arrogant commerical fishing vessel captain. This knowledge comes with experience. But if you can't get out there and do the job, you're never going to learn. And you will never stop learning. This isn't just with aviation, its with all walks of life. You should always be learning.
If you can learn the basics, the "minimum" required knowledge to gain your certifications/license's, than you are on your way to gaining experience. If the FAA says you have the skill and knowledge to obtain those certifications, than by law, you are certified.

When it comes to instructors, there are some things you can not teach. Like people skills, communication skills. Some people just flat out can not instruct anything worth a damn. This goes for any school. Its all about the person. When I get my first student as a CFI, and each and every student after that, I will always start their training with " I do not know everything there is to know about flying, but anything that I can not answer for you, I will find an answer. " Being a good CFI doesn't mean that you know everything, being a good CFI is admitting that you don't know everything, but you have the attitude to continue to learn and will do everything in your power to ensure your student gets quality training.

My biggest complaint is when people bitch about ATP for the very reasons that their program exsists. Sure its not for everyone, but that doesn't make them a bad school. And to think I almost ended up at the Delta Connection Academy.

[BrianNC]

[ QUOTE ]
My biggest complaint is when people bitch about ATP for the very reasons that their program exsists.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a very good point. What's the point complaining about what something is meant to be?

I did my research and I believe Ari Ben is the best choice for what I want to accomplish. For some it is ATP. But why go to either one and then complain about what they are not or don't have when you knew that going in? Don't go to a place that doesn't have a formal ground school and then complain about the fact they don't have a formal ground school. That's ignorance gone to seed.

Search out and go to the place that has what you are looking for and what suits your learning style best.

[BrettInLJ]

Question for ATP pilots. Would you allow your wife or child to be taken on a long cross country in a rented Seminole that had no Garmin 430, no GPS (ifr or vfr), but just a standard dual VOR's/HSI panel, at night in IFR conditions (not to minimums, maybe 1000 foot cielings) with someone who graduated 2 days earlier from the 90-day program, done right after their 60-day PPL program? After all, they are a CFII/MEI even through they have only been a pilot for 5 months. If the answer is yes, then that does say something good for the accelerated training programs. Taking it further, would you have them teach your 17 y/o son or daughter to fly?

[blee256]

[ QUOTE ]
Question for ATP pilots. Would you allow your wife or child to be taken on a long cross country in a rented Seminole that had no Garmin 430, no GPS (ifr or vfr), but just a standard dual VOR's/HSI panel, at night in IFR conditions (not to minimums, maybe 1000 foot cielings) with someone who graduated 2 days earlier from the 90-day program, done right after their 60-day PPL program? After all, they are a CFII/MEI even through they have only been a pilot for 5 months. If the answer is yes, then that does say something good for the accelerated training programs. Taking it further, would you have them teach your 17 y/o son or daughter to fly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, but I wouldnt trust them in with a RIddle, Pan Am, FSI, or DCA grad either. Even if the plane had GPS and auto-pilot.
I have over a 1000 hours and I fly for a regional. Would you let you son or daughter fly with me? I hope not.



I know what you are trying to get at, but that was a poor example.

[adreamer]

To answer your first question, I would take them to fly. On the other hand, I would not. I would because I trust my flying ability(not the greatest, but ok). However, I would not because of poor ADM(Aviation Decision Making). Why do you want yourself in that situation in the first place (poor weather and unfamiliar aircraft)?

Here is my 2 cents. I am in the middle of my instrument training of 90 days program. In myopinion, I am practically eat, drink, sleep, and dream about aviation everyday. I f I am not study my textbooks, doing my homeworks(quizzes, CFI pre-test book), I am mostly likely sleep. My instructor are constantly challenge our ability in the sim. Let me try this, Can you shoot an approach with partial panel(Attitude indicator and DG failure), Single engine failure approach and safely land? We do that in the sim. Every time, I fly in sim or in the plane, I feel more comfortable and confidence about my ability. At the same time, I have learned some new about flying.

As my instructor said, You get what you want out of this program. If you are looking for minimum for ratings, you can do that. If you want to learn more about aviation and flying, instructors are there for help. I hope this answer your questions or your doubts. Time to go back to study...

adreamer

[BrettInLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer your first question, I would take them to fly. On the other hand, I would not. I would because I trust my flying ability(not the greatest, but ok). However, I would not because of poor ADM(Aviation Decision Making). Why do you want yourself in that situation in the first place (poor weather and unfamiliar aircraft)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if I would call a 1000' ceiling (lets say stratus) poor weather for a twin, especially if we are talking about a proficient CFII and the approaches are precision. I'm also not talking about a pilot who just got their multi and instrument ratings and needs to file IFR to get comfortable. I am talking about a CFII/MEI here. Also I would hardly call a Seminole an unfamiliar aircraft to an ATP grad. I'm just making a point about what skills a CFII/MEI should be expected to have and what they should be able to handle comfortably.

I'm just curious, after graduating from the career pilot program with a CFII/MEI certificate will a student have ever flown single pilot IFR in a twin? Or for that matter solo in a twin or single pilot IFR? Is that part of the program, because I remember some discussion on insurance not allowing for that kind of thing at some schools.

[Cactus_Cutter]

[ QUOTE ]
Question for ATP pilots. Would you allow your wife or child to be taken on a long cross country in a rented Seminole that had no Garmin 430, no GPS (ifr or vfr), but just a standard dual VOR's/HSI panel, at night in IFR conditions (not to minimums, maybe 1000 foot cielings) with someone who graduated 2 days earlier from the 90-day program, done right after their 60-day PPL program? After all, they are a CFII/MEI even through they have only been a pilot for 5 months. If the answer is yes, then that does say something good for the accelerated training programs. Taking it further, would you have them teach your 17 y/o son or daughter to fly?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about an ATP pilot in rented Seminole with no GPS and actual IFR forced to land doing an NDB approach (NAV malfunction, unscheduled VOR, LOC outage etc)? Didn’t see any of that basic equipment/training in their planes/programs.

[MrSandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Question for ATP pilots. Would you allow your wife or child to be taken on a long cross country in a rented Seminole that had no Garmin 430, no GPS (ifr or vfr), but just a standard dual VOR's/HSI panel, at night in IFR conditions (not to minimums, maybe 1000 foot cielings) with someone who graduated 2 days earlier from the 90-day program, done right after their 60-day PPL program? After all, they are a CFII/MEI even through they have only been a pilot for 5 months. If the answer is yes, then that does say something good for the accelerated training programs. Taking it further, would you have them teach your 17 y/o son or daughter to fly?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about an ATP pilot in rented Seminole with no GPS and actual IFR forced to land doing an NDB approach (NAV malfunction, unscheduled VOR, LOC outage etc)? Didn’t see any of that basic equipment/training in their planes/programs.

[/ QUOTE ]

To my knowledge, ATP doesn't even teach NDB approaches. At least in their CFI program, I asked, where is the ADF? (there was not one installed in any ATP aircarft I flew)

The instructor responded "We don't teach NDBs at ATP".

Take it as you will, but it sure gives me a clear indication as I've been saying all along.

[blee256]

[ QUOTE ]


To my knowledge, ATP doesn't even teach NDB approaches. At least in their CFI program, I asked, where is the ADF? (there was not one installed in any ATP aircarft I flew)

The instructor responded "We don't teach NDBs at ATP".

Take it as you will, but it sure gives me a clear indication as I've been saying all along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats is correct, we dont have any ADFs in the seminoles. I think a few of the Cessnas have them, but we dont do any IFR training in the single engine. Is it too bad that ATP doesnt teach NDB approaches? Sure it does, but insted of NDBs we were taught to do GPS approaches. I used to rent an airplane at Cable airport in Socal. None of their airplanes had a GPS. So i think its pretty safe to say their students werent taught GPS approaches. So should everyone stay away from that flight school? Anyways, I thinknowadays its more important to know how to shoot a GPS approach than an NDB.

In my airline groundschool I made a joke when people talked about NDB approaches in the Sim. I told them I dont know how to do it, everyone in my class said its okay, its been so long we couldnt do one either. Someone joked to my instructor that I never shot an NDB approach before. His reponse was

"oh were you taught GPS and RNAV approaches?"
i replied "yeah"
"then your light years ahead, you should be flying the spaceship"

we had a good laugh.

and playing with that Garmin 430 for 2 years gave me a huge head start on programing a Collins FMS.

SO during a break in training, I went home and jumped in an FTD, and taught myself how to shoot and NDB approach and hold. i figured it out pretty easily.(my classmates did give me some pointers). It took me less than an hour. Now they werent perfect, but i figured out what to do. A non-precision approach is a non precision approach . they are all done basicalle the same way.

[skyhawk39]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell us your background, such as where you did your training before, what you are doing now, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, no problem. To answer your question I currently hold an ATP Certificate with CFI, CFII and MEI also. I Currently have a little under 10500 hours total time. I got my private rating under part 61, my instrument at a part 141 school, and my inital jet training was done thanks to the US Navy at Pensacola NAS. Spent a 9 years of my life getting cat shots and three wire traps on and off the deck of the Kennedy and the Eisnehower in the front of an F-14D with deployments to several hot operations (Allied Force and the Southern No-Fly Zone) in the mid to late 90's .

Currently I am an IOE Captain/company check airman in the ERJ for a large regional airline. I hold type ratings in the ERJ and DHC-8 aircraft, as well as still flying the F-16 in the ANG (I cross service transfered)

I did the 6.5 hour program at ATP for the CFI tickets. I had done no other training with them before. My impression is based on this program and what I saw first hand.

[Tram]

Hmm.. well firstly:

Skyhawk39 - rock on man, the tomcat rocks.. I've got a lot of bits and pieces of the tomcat and other navy birds around my house - depending on when those birds were accepted into the fleet you were flying - they could have very easily been accepted and given the "ok" by my uncle who flew phantoms and then when the tomcats starting arriving, tomcats.. Just curious - comming from your name - did you get the fly the skyhawk also? My dad says the closest he's come in general aviation to flying a skyhawk is the RV6.. Says it rolls just like it. If you flew in the early 90's - late 80's you may remember the bumper stickers "Tomcats 2 Libya 0"

Anyway for anyone else reading this post or eh.. late night ramble - I think alot of ATP is what you put into it.. It's not for everyone and everyone will not enjoy it.. I've seen guys who came into the program and were the sharpest tacks in the drawer bust a ride - my inital CFI is such a case.. We all know how classmats sum each other up.. "oh, he's the freakin whizz kid, he'll be fine" or the "ohh, that kid parties too hard and sleeps through classes" types.. We all do it.. Well, in my CFI school, they handed out the slips for who was getting who for the checkrides.. Myself and two others snag the same guy for our rides.. Myself - being the middle of the road - not the sharpest spoon in the drawer, not the dullest fork - then the ace of spades - mr. has the oral prep book down to a science - and then the "is it alright if I drink my beer in ground school guy" - we all get the same examiner.. So we find out the order of the exams.. Smart guy goes first, dumb guy goes second then me... Welp.. checkride day comes for the smart guy - busts.. Great.. i'm hosed for sure.. not to mention the "slowbee".. Slowbee takes it.. bam.. aces it.. Ok, so now maybe I have a hope... I show up - not knowing what in the world to think.. Do I have it made? Am I truly hosed? Who knows.. Well.. long babble made short - I passed.. the guy who busted then went back up for a recheck with the WORST possible guy to get a checkride from and blows it out of the water with flying colors... The aviation world is weiird how it works..


I love reading opinions of what people "think or know" Everyone knows the saying.. Opinions are like..well you all know it.. Including my own..

I've sat with pilots from all different backgrounds - I've sat at dinner with 4 - A-10 pilots and listened to their insights on life, flying, the airlines, etc... I've had lunch with WW2 Aces and vietnam ravens and wild weasels.. I've sat at the dinner table with an S3 (prerefueler days) pilot, F14 pilot and a pby pilot and listened to their insights on life, flying and the airlines... I've sat at the dinner table with widebody captains and 737 captains and a guys who do nothing but fly a j5 cub from Alabama to Indiana and back just to say "i did it in less time than I could have commuted via an airline all in a j5" - I've listened to what everyone has to say - because a smart person in this business - at the point I am at - doesn't do much talking, but he does a whole lot of listening..

There are things in life that work for some and don't work for others, there are 10 different ways to pick how you enter a hold "properly." When in real life - it's all in how it works best for you - speaking of holds - ALL the "proper ways to do it" are suggestions.. there are no "100% correct ways to enter a hold."

I went to ATP, did the 90 day, spent about a year instructing out in the "non-ATP" world and then needed some multi-time, so now I am at ATP again..

While I was in the 90 day program - while ADF approaches were not part of the "course" I got to shoot about a total of 5 of the approaches - why? Simply because I wanted to and asked my instructor to show me how to do them..

There are always "experts" in life.. "experts in this.. experts in that.." I will grant you this - there are instructors at ATP and the world over that do not know everything - after all in aviation - when you quit learning - your dead..

Eh, I guess I said all of that to say this.. I'm not sure, but do the RJ's even have ADF's?

[blee256]

[ QUOTE ]


Sure, no problem. To answer your question I currently hold an ATP Certificate with CFI, CFII and MEI also. I Currently have a little under 10500 hours total time. I got my private rating under part 61, my instrument at a part 141 school, and my inital jet training was done thanks to the US Navy at Pensacola NAS. Spent a 9 years of my life getting cat shots and three wire traps on and off the deck of the Kennedy and the Eisnehower in the front of an F-14D with deployments to several hot operations (Allied Force and the Southern No-Fly Zone) in the mid to late 90's .

Currently I am an IOE Captain/company check airman in the ERJ for a large regional airline. I hold type ratings in the ERJ and DHC-8 aircraft, as well as still flying the F-16 in the ANG (I cross service transfered)

I did the 6.5 hour program at ATP for the CFI tickets. I had done no other training with them before. My impression is based on this program and what I saw first hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, you the man now dawg. haha. thats awesome. i wish i could've went the military route and fly those jets.but my damn eyes, too much watching TV too close i guess. Do you know matt cassidy or David Jacobsen from your F-14 days? how about torch, moose or chucker?

[skyhawk39]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, I guess I said all of that to say this.. I'm not sure, but do the RJ's even have ADF's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually they do....and while we don't do them often I have shot NDB approaches in an RJ...I just perfer to fly them by hand instead of letting the box fly the NDB.

I flew the TA-4 Skyhawk in training....the scooter is a fun little airplane...

[Tram]

You learn something new everyday..

[MrSandman]

The majority of your jets out there will have an RMI.