90 day program

[SkyJeff]

I have a few questions from the guys who are at or went to ATP.

Is the 90 day program rushing the ratings too fast?

Is that much information retaininable during only 3 months?

Do the majority of students have degrees?

What is the probability of becoming an instrcutor after completing the course?

What are the average ages of current students?

Do they have enough planes?

Thanks.

[MrSandman]

Well, I know five people who went through their 90-day program.

Only one of them has a flying job as a flight instructor, all the others have tried applying to various different flight instructor jobs, but have been denied.

I sat in on one of their 90-day students going through their CFI Initial DE oral and I was appalled by how LITTLE the guy knew. The student did not even know basic private pilot level questions, and here sat a Commercial ASEL/AMEL going for his CFI. It was by luck that they brought in a new DE for this rather than one of their "ATP DEs". The DE couldn't believe how little this guy knew to the point of asking "How did you even get your private pilot's license?". The student responded "Well, usually they don't ask any questions and they give you the license."

Needless to say the student failed. I just find it so interesting to see what happens when they get a non"ATP DE" in there who will not pass everyone.

In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings.

I would never hire someone from ATP.

[cybourg12]

[ QUOTE ]

In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings.

I would never hire someone from ATP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you know something ExpressJet doesn't. Call them as soon as you can and let them know all the instructors they hired don't know ##### about flying.

SkyJeff- whether you go to ATP or any other flight school, what you get out of it is up to you. Don't listen to people like MrSandman. There is proof that ATP works for some and doesn't for others. There are many pilots on here that went to ATP and are now flying for the regionals. If you put in the effort and hard work you will do just fine anywhere you decide to go. Good Luck.

[MrSandman]

There's an old saying "Airlines don't care where you get your flight ratings". That's very true--as long as you have them, they don't care.

The underlying point, which you gallantly missed, is you may walk out of ATP with your ratings, which is virtually guaranteed, and of course with that meet the most basic of requirements to get hired by say ExpressJet, but the point is will you learn as much at ATP as one would at other flight schools?

From my own personal experience, highly doubtful. From what I saw, the knowledge one would receive there is subpar compared to other places.

The question you want to ask yourself is how much do you want to learn as opposed to getting the ratings in the smallest amount of time required?

Jeff:

Is the 90 day program rushing the ratings too fast? Yes, in my opinion, far too fast which ties into the next question.

Is that much information retaininable during only 3 months? In essence, all you are doing is cramming this information for the checkrides you will take. The majority of people forget this information rather quickly after they have been tested.

Do the majority of students have degrees? To my knowledge, at the time of their doing the program, no.

What are the average ages of current students? The majority is pretty young.

Do they have enough planes? I have been to two of their facilities and never saw a problem with planes. Others I know that have gone through the program never had problems either.

I'd be glad to answer any other questions you may have--I do not work for ATP unlike some of the other posters who, of course, are trying to sell their product.

[Captain_Bob]

Hey there MrSandman,

First and foremost, welcome to JetCareers, and thank you for giving your input on ATP.

Most folks here are really trying hard to find a good flight school or even find out how to best maximize their learning at their local FBO's. In doing that we as a community try to give our experiences from a direct experience point of view. The information you provided will certainly help someone make an informed decision if you could provide a bit more detail about the situation that you refer to.

For example... how were you privy to sitting in on an initial CFI oral? Other students may want to know that so that they can do the same and maybe learn what to expect from one. No DE's that I know would allow that due to the fact that the CFI-Oral is very intense and a very personal experience for the student, so sharing your experience there would certainly help.

It certainly does sound like from your statement that the student was underprepared. It is surprising that any student having gone through any type of program at all would simply state "Well, usually they don't ask any questions and they give you the license."

Your experience with ATP will help provide the basis on which more potential pilots can make informed decisions...

ATP doesn't have any examiners on staff, and all DE's utilized by ATP are also utilized by other flight schools and FBO's. Many are current and retired airline pilots themselves, who have been trusted with examining students skills per the PTS by the FAA, and often get "line checked" if you will, by the FAA to be sure they are performing a checkride examination to standards. The beauty of this is that the DE get's to keep the fee's that are deemed practical for that geographic area, and some are up to $300+ per checkride. A good DE could make over $120,000 a year by simply working part time and doing 2 checkrides a day, 5 days a week. The DE's that I know, like most pilots I know, don't often vary from the standards that the FAA mandates... Why would they risk the great pay and the liability of signing someone off that didn't deserve it. This is where I wonder about your comments regarding not ATP... but the DE's that perform checkrides for ATP and their surrounding districts flight schools.

I feel bad for all your friends... It certainly does not seem to be the norm. However, I have known a few individuals myself who were not hired and there were specific reasons why... They may have been great sticks... but that didn't make them great instructors. This can come out in any interview at any flight school. ATP never has, and most likely never will guarantee an instructor position to a graduate of the ACPP program. But they will give you an opportunity during the 90 days to prove yourself to your instructors, dispatch, your fellow pilots, and ATP corporate. Based on that info.. hiring needs are assessed.

That is the one constant in most all the "Real" time experience posted here in JC about ATP. The program is what you make of it. Lot's of self study, self reliance, self determination, and self discipline. Many students willfully admit that they lack some of those and would prefer and do best in a program where formal ground school is part of the curriculum like Pan-Am and other 141 type schools.

Please take the time to read about others first hand and "real" time experiences here on JC in all the flight school forums and see what the schools are really like from the inside versus the outside looking in and I'm sure you will be able to help others form their opinions better. The summarization of your statement... "In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings." Seems unfounded and a very intense point of view. Many on here would claim that it is flame bait and you are simply trying to get ATP's feathers up in the forums. I don't think that at all... I believe that you are simply uninformed on the process and may have heard some "stories" that you think are true. That's why I suggest taking a glance at others realtime experiences or... if your looking for flight school information and want to know what other schools are looking for and what the airlines are looking for... please PM me. I know I can help you in that regard, and if I can't, I can refer you to many students, instructors, and professional pilots who can.

Thanks again for sharing, and welcome again to JC!

Bob

[Captain_Bob]

Hi Jeff,

Thought I'd take the time to answer your questions since you specifically asked for experiences from folks "who are at or went to ATP."

Is the 90 day program rushing the ratings too fast?

Yes, and no. For some folks it may very well be too fast. Refer to my post above regarding the self discipline aspects. For example... Is a student who applies themselves and goes to college full-time spring, summer, fall, & winter without a break and getting their 4 year degree in two years going through too fast? That's what my sister did... she applied herself, immersed herself in her studies and did just that.

ATP has a plan and a formula that works and has worked for many, many years. Everyone's experiences are different and they are not all positive, but the one thing that they can say is ATP delivered what the promised.

Is that much information retaininable during only 3 months?

I love answering this question... I have answered it many times in the past in these forums, and it never gets old. I have a good friend who when on mission to Mexico for the summer after high school. He has basic spanish from high school but that was it... (much like we all has basic PPL skills before starting ATP). 4 months later he knew more about the culture than a textbook could ever teach, and he spoke spanish fluently... The kicker... He still speaks fluent spanish, where as I, with 4 years of high school spanish can barely get out "Donde esta el bano?"

ATP is an immersion program. You will sleep, eat, study, talk, walk, and dream about aviation 6-7 days a week, 8-12 hours a day, for 3 months straight, with no outside distractions that can happen at a typical FBO.

Do the majority of students have degrees?

No one can truely answer that question. They can just offer up their "this is what I saw", or "what I think" responses. Here is mine. From "what I saw", during my time at ATP, I would say it was roughly 50 percent give or take. It is not a requirement but it will obviously help in the industry down the road. Many students were in between semesters at college, many were mid-life career changers, many were fresh out of high school... a good mix and balance.

What is the probability of becoming an instrcutor after completing the course?

The answer to this lies in the current state of the aviation/airline industry, and the quality of the applicant. For example... after 9/11 it was extremely difficult to get a job with ATP. No one in the industry was hiring, and the majority of instructors were instructing to build time to become airline pilots... so... no movement in the airlines, meant no movement at ATP, which ultimately meant that not many people got hired. The situation has changed recently the the turn around (with the regionals). Lot's of movement in the industry and lots of hiring going on at ATP. That being said... they are still fairly selective.

My advice has always been... Treat the 90 days of training as a 90 day job interview.

What are the average ages of current students? I have seen late teens to early 50's. Those were the extremes of course. The majority were mid-20's to late 30's. When I was instructing in DFW... our instructors were 23, 27, 31, 34, and 39.

Do they have enough planes?

ATP operates the largest fleet of seminoles in the nation. I know that sounds like propaganda but... it's true. If a location is short on planes they simply fly another one in. MX is top notch and anyone is welcome to view the planes and maintenance records while visiting a location.

Hope that helps, take a look at some of the "real" time blogs that some of the students have posted on here and you will get a great bird's eye view of how the program works.

Good Luck!

Bob

[xavier0002]

Sky Jeff

I will be doing the cpp program at ATP starting on july. I have done a lot of research about the career pilot program and ATP (it is not easy to go almost 50,000 dollars in depth, just to find a school that wouldn't deliver what they promice or worse, take you for a ride.) I have posted the same questions that you posted before, and I have found out that the general consensus is that it can be done as long as you apply yourself. ATP has a good reputation and there are a lot of people who have been happy with the results. If you go back and look at other peoples posts you can find more information about it.

I don't know if it helps but that's my two cents

[SkyJeff]

Thanks for all the helpful information. I've read through a lot of the posts and although I have 2.5 years left of college it's between ATP and Ari-Ben. My only concern is the CFI position. It sounds like if you have a decent head on your shoulders you are damn near handed the job at Ari. I'd love to go to ATP, but I'd be afraid after completing ATP and dropping 40k+ that they can't offer me a position for whatever reason and I wouldn't have enough hours for other schools.

If ATP can't offer you a CFI job because of the industry, do they put you on a waiting list or something? Or are you [censored] out of luck?

Thanks

[BobDDuck]

People make it sound like that you are either hired by ATP or you've got nothing. That is pretty far from the truth. Of 5 of my career pilot students NONE of them got a job with ATP. That said, only one applied. Of those five, 2 lucked out and got a King Air job (rare I know), one is back in school and the other two have found CFI positions outside of ATP. In fact one of them called me today to ask a question about how to long sim instruction time. He's been instructing for one week and already has two students and is starting training to instruct in the SR22 next week.

So, point of my little rant here? If you get on at ATP (and most people that apply do get on) good. If you don't, there are PLENTY of CFI jobs out there, even for low time (zero dual given) CFIs. The big draw of instructing at ATP is the multi time. Yes, that is a big benefit, but with 140 hours out of the program you already meet some airlines mins, and in the time it takes to get your total time up to mins it shouldn't be too hard to pick up the rest of the multi time you will need to get on with other regionals. Don't count in or out a program (and this doesn't just go for ATP at all) just because the end posibilities may or may not be there.

Ethan

[blee256]

As long as you do well, I wouldnt worry about not getting a job. If you fail a checkride its no big deal, but if you fail about 5 of them, I wouldnt count on them giving you a call. RIght now with all the hiring going on by the regionals, ATP is hurting for quality instructors.

[blee256]

And Bob, you should run for office. I probably wouldnt have been so civil.

[Captain_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the helpful information. I've read through a lot of the posts and although I have 2.5 years left of college it's between ATP and Ari-Ben. My only concern is the CFI position. It sounds like if you have a decent head on your shoulders you are damn near handed the job at Ari. I'd love to go to ATP, but I'd be afraid after completing ATP and dropping 40k+ that they can't offer me a position for whatever reason and I wouldn't have enough hours for other schools.

If ATP can't offer you a CFI job because of the industry, do they put you on a waiting list or something? Or are you [censored] out of luck?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ] Jeff,

I understand your fear... especially after dropping a significant amount of money and personal time & effort into this dream of yours. It is rational to be afraid of not succeeding in any aspect of this business... However, be forewarned... other fears you will most likely have in this field are:

Will I pass my checkride, my medical, my flight program? Will I then pass an interview to become a flight instructor, will I be successful at it and will I be able to build the right amount of time in the type of aircraft needed to get a job at the airline I want to work for? Will I be able to get an interview at the airline I want to work for? Will I pass the interview? If I pass, will I pass Basic Indoc? FTD's? Systems Class? Full Motion SIM training? My Oral? My checkride to actually get officially hired? Will I then pass IOE? Will I have to stay on Reserve long? Will my family understand that I may spend half the year away from them? Will I make Capt. before the industry has another downturn? Will my company's contract be renewed? If not, will I be in the top percentage of pilots that don't get furloghed? If so, then what will my QOL be like back on reserve? Should I stay at this airline and stick it out or cut my losses and move to one that is currently expreriencing growth? If I make it to a Major, will it be one that doesn't go under after declaring bankruptcy for the 3rd time? Can I take the hit in income? Will my family still be with me as I make all these decisions? Is this all worth it?

These are all real questions, and fears that all of us face at any given point in our profession. If you think you can do it... then do it. If you do what it takes to get hired then you will. I had the same question in my mind... my whole "mid-life" goal was dependant, or so I thought, on getting hired by ATP, and I was desperately trying to get someone on this website to tell me that "Yes... for you Bob... it will happen!" I never got that reassurance, and I was still able to make it happen. You can to. But... don't focus too much on that. Focus on where you believe the best flight instruction will come from, and which place will be a better fit for you as an individual. Because if you don't like it as a student... you won't like it as an instructor.

Does ATP have a waiting list? Not officially... That being said, I know that they have recently called students who completed the program last year and are asking them if they are interested in coming to work. I also know of instructors that were hired several months after applying and they kept updateing their resumes every week/month with ATP. Don't know if that actually answers your question, but hopefully it sheds some light on it.

Contrary to what MrSandman mentioned about talking to someone who doesn't work, instruct, or study there... I would highly recommend that you give the 800-ALL-ATPS number a call. Everyone who answers that phone has been in your shoes. They are all graduates of the program and are awaiting a location to instruct at. Their is no SCRIPT or Line of BS/propoganda they will give to you when you ask them about their experiences. They are not salesmen... They are individuals with a love of flight that want to succeed just as you do.

Ask them the same questions you would ask your local FBO, PanAm, Ari-Ben, Skymates, DCA, etc... compare the data and then make an informed decision.

Good luck!

Bob

[SkyJeff]

That is a great post Capt Bob.

I never thought of all the questions I would ask myself throughout my career; thanks for enlightening me. Its posts like yours that give a young guy like me the motivation to push forward.

I'll defintely give ATP a call among others and when I get closer to graduating and securing a loan pay a visit to speak in person with someone.

Thanks!!

[MrSandman]

CaptainBob, pleasure to meet you. I appreciate your long post and taking the time to write it as well as reading mine intelligently.

To fill in the details here, I attended ATP's 14-Day CFI/CFII/MEI program a year ago after having earned all my other flight ratings elsewhere Part 141, so I suppose you could say my experience is between ATP and the Part 141 school. My experience with ATP comes first-hand from actually going through one of their programs, not just what I have heard.

As for watching that CFI oral, I was to take my SE add-on flight with that particular DE after he was finished with that prospective CFI's oral. This DE asked me if I wished to sit in on this CFI-inital oral (after he got the approval from the prospective CFI), so I took him up on his offer.

I use the term "ATP DEs" loosely, because (for those that may or may not know), DEs work for the FAA, not ATP just like you pointed out. However, with that said, I will further clarify my remarks by more or less painting a picture, so bear with me. The two ATP locations I did the program at each had their own DEs, in other words, DEs that would be doing checks there everyday--if there was a checkride, that is who they called. The DE I had for my CFI Initial and CFII did nothing but ATP checkrides, and usually doing the maximum amount the FAA allows per day. After talking with this DE, he has litterally done hundreds of checks for ATP (primarily CFI checks), but out of those hundreds had only failed 3 people (in retrospect, a FSDO in Florida has an 80% first time fail rate for CFI Initials). Now it could just be a testament to the training at ATP, but for such a high pass rate, I find it unlikely for that to be the tell-all answer.

While this is purely speculation, let's try to view it through the eyes of the DE. ATP offers the DE a full load of checkrides per day, which at $350 or so per checkride is a pocket full of money (DEs are the one of the most heavily audited professions, by the way ). Now if this DE was particularily strict and failed quite a few students for legitimate reasons, do you think ATP would continue to use him for their checkrides? Doubtful, and to the DE, that is money lost. From my own experience, the DE I had for my CFI Initial and CFII was easy, just as his pass rate would suggest. Out of the 3-4 hours of oral time for those two ratings, I got asked a total of three to four questions. The rest of the time was just listening to him talk about himself. While that is great for the student, it further helps to explain what I am getting at. The DE I had for the SE add-on, who also did that prospective CFI's check, was a last minute sub that particular ATP office found because their usual one was sick. Take it as you will, but from my experience, I believe it justifies why I use the term "ATP DEs".

As you said and to others who cannot seem to figure it out, everyone is offering his or her help based on their own experiences. I applaud your knowledge to know that I am not trying to "ruffle feathers", but simply offering my advice based on my experience with ATP.

If you need me to elaborate any further or if I did not answer all of your questions, feel free to ask. Thanks for your time.

[Tram]

I don't have much to say on the topic, and perhaps I should say nothing, but one thing I noticed is how you questioned the ability to "retain" knowledge from the overly-paced 90 day course..

However, I went through the 90 day program ~ a year ago and go out, had another job waiting on me, so I did not follow up a job with ATP.. After getting out and working for a bit, one job dried up, moved to the next and etc, etc.. Options started slowing and needing multi time as anyone does wanting to get into the airlines.. So I started looking at ATP again, sent in a resume and subsequently got a phone call for an interview..

Since having been out of the program for over a year I have not touched, looked at, cared about a Piper Seminole, until recently.. I now have ~4 hours in the Seminole again and very close to being where I was when I left.. Of course the first few attempts at doing memory items and call outs in the sim were shaky - I had not looked at this info for over a year, however, I've been in new hire training for 9 days - today and am probably back to 85% ready to rumble..

I am no expert on memory retention, cognitive learning skills etc - but the information I picked up at ATP was easily recalled..

[SIUav8er]

Is there anybody on this forum that did NOT complete the ACPP in 90 days? It sounds like everyone finishes it either within 90 days or less! I know there has to be someone who busted a check ride or two and didnt finish within 90 days.

[Tram]

I did it in like 76 days..

[Captain_Bob]

Didn't bust a ride... and finished in like 101 days... due to my last ride being weathered out for a week!

That being said... There are guys who did bust a ride or two and still finished within 90.

Believe it or not... the 90 day program has a buffer built in for weather, busts, and other extenuating circumstances... that's why you see many completing it earlier.

Bob

[GaTechKid]

I did it in 290 days....but that was a different program.

[GaTechKid]

[ QUOTE ]
Needless to say the student failed. I just find it so interesting to see what happens when they get a non"ATP DE" in there who will not pass everyone.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can say that for up here ATPs pass rate is average, which means that our DE isn't handing out free meals to our students.
[ QUOTE ]
In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many people out there can't understand how the process that took them 1-2 years can be accomplished in only 90 days. Those are usually the ones that have something against ATP. Immersion works for obtaining a degree, learning a language, and even flight training, but, like all things learned, if you don't use it you lose it. It's kinda what that instructor handbook was teachin' about.

[jaxpilot]

[ QUOTE ]

Many people out there can't understand how the process that took them 1-2 years can be accomplished in only 90 days. Those are usually the ones that have something against ATP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. This myth is also perpetuated by acadamies that tell you you have to spend $100,000 with them or the training is substandard. I've also heard several instructors at large 141 acadamies tell me they wish they would have gone to ATP.

[Buda6868]

Hey, It took me 1 1/2 years, but I made it through the 90 day program! ( most people know why, ie: family issues and a great supporting staff at ATP, Thanks Jim!)

I have a GREAT CFI postion I would not give up for any Multi. additional training. That will come.

I have retained all my info. and never busted a ride yet.

Chief instuctor at my school complimented me on my flight and knowledge and the are impressed by my dedication.

Thank you ATP and Bob, I'll see you in the skies next year.

John Watson.

Wish everybody Godd Luck.

[meritflyer]

Originally Posted by MrSandman

Well, I know five people who went through their 90-day program.

Only one of them has a flying job as a flight instructor, all the others have tried applying to various different flight instructor jobs, but have been denied.

I sat in on one of their 90-day students going through their CFI Initial DE oral and I was appalled by how LITTLE the guy knew. The student did not even know basic private pilot level questions, and here sat a Commercial ASEL/AMEL going for his CFI. It was by luck that they brought in a new DE for this rather than one of their "ATP DEs". The DE couldn't believe how little this guy knew to the point of asking "How did you even get your private pilot's license?". The student responded "Well, usually they don't ask any questions and they give you the license."

Needless to say the student failed. I just find it so interesting to see what happens when they get a non"ATP DE" in there who will not pass everyone.

In summary, you will learn little to nothing with ATP--essentially all you are doing is paying for your ratings.

I would never hire someone from ATP.

Bull crap! That is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. How unprofessional of a DE to insult a student like that. I have to think this story.. oh sorry, thread.. is written by some disgruntled ATP grad.

[JBUCREW]

It must work for some......

http://www2.atpflightschool.com/AirlinePlacements/

[Timbuff10]

Dug that thread out of the ground didn't ya?