ATP Mistake

[Bluehen]

Well guys, I have a story. I am sure im going to be bashed on here but here it goes. I decided to go to ATP for the 10 month program, primarily for the multi and the quick route to the ratings. Had no problem with my current instructor at my current school, he's a great guy. Went to ATP yesterday, and filled out some paper work, wasnt so bad. Then started going over the ground school stuff which is when the problems started. It became quickly evident that the instructor there, while a nice guy, taught directly out of the "Seminole supplement" they send you. This wasnt so bad, but when he tried to talk about things that werent in the supplement, ie.. basic aerodynamics, basic pilot knowledge, etc. it became quickly evident that he was either A) Not very well versed in the information B) Didnt know what he was talking about C) Both the Above. I chose C, and quickly decided to opt out of the program. Furthermore, the environement was so unprofessional it was like kids playing at home when their parents are out.
I then called ATP today to let them know that I had decided to leave the 10 month program and return to my old school. I spoke with Blank(dont want to mention names), and told him the above, and he was cool about it, said he understood and then transferred me to Blank(again dont want to mention names). When I spoke with blank he asked me who my instructor was, and what i didnt like about the program to make me want to not continue. At that time I told him the above, and said that I didnt feel the program was for me as I expected an instructor to know more then me when it comes to the basics. From the sound of his voice it was clear he was a little angered by this as he said to me that it is pretty unlikely that someone could get an impression of an instructor after just one day but said "I guess you can" in a slightly smart ass type voice. He did state they would process the refund this week, however, when I asked him what the amount owed would be again he was a little smart assish and said "well, I guess you'd have an idea." I felt as though he could have been a little more professional on the phone, rather then make it obvious through his voice that he was pissed. So for me its back to the old school, where I should have stayed. My instructor their is way more knowledgeable and it shows. Anywyas, just had to share the experience, let the bashing begin.

P.s
For what its worth, at this location, and maybe not all, they really were only going to teach what was needed for the checkride. Nothing more.

[pscraig]

What location? You gave it one day? Sorry to hear about your bad experience, but it really does sound like you didn't give things a chance and maybe had an expectation that wasn't realistic-I wasn't there, I don't know. You did an interview at this location, right? Were there other instructors you could try instead?

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
This wasnt so bad, but when he tried to talk about things that werent in the supplement, ie.. basic aerodynamics, basic pilot knowledge, etc. it became quickly evident that he was either A) Not very well versed in the information B) Didnt know what he was talking about C) Both the Above.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're talking about a school where instructors get CFI, CFII and MEI in 14 days, and then basically jump right into the fray and start instructing without much supervision... and this surprises you?

[adreamer]

Sorry about the bad experience. Well, in my naive opinion, it is all up to you. My PPL instructor gave me this advise - "Bring your "A" game when attend this kind of program." You have to study a lot on your own.

Another point of view -> When someone get his/her CFI / CFII / MEI tickets, it does not mean you will be a great flight instructor. The example of mine -> I know a guy who only studied Gleim written guides before all his check rides. Now, he passed his initial CFI ride, would you let him to be your instructor? I don't.

I forgot where I heard it from - "The day you stop learning about flying, it is the day you get out of aviation industry."

adreamer

[SmitteyB]

[ QUOTE ]
"The day you stop learning about flying, it is the day you get out of aviation industry."

[/ QUOTE ]

Good quote. Also sorry to hear about the bad experience. Good luck in whatever you choose.

[Captain_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
My interview in Manassas went well. Similiar to above. I did the 100 buck simulator check. I was asked questions about basic stuff such as airspace, aerodynamics, etc... It was actually pretty long. Then I took the written quiz, basic PP stuff, then sat in the simulator. The isntructors were all pretty cool, although I really only talked to one guy, but cool none the less. Also had a little "classroom" segement on multi-engine aerodynamics, ie..mainly engine out procedures and effects of engine outs.. I was happy, definetly felt I got my 100.00 bucks worth, or i wouldnt be starting on monday.


[/ QUOTE ] That was your impression after your other "first" day. Sounds like you went to Manassas.

Was the guy who was your assigned instructor the same guy who did your interview? It sounds like he may have been a good fit for you based on the above.

Day one... is primarily paperwork, and yes the first week does focus on the Seminole Supplement since your checkride in the Seminole is only 9 days away. But later in the week the PTS does come up, however, remember that the Multi-Ride is simply an add-on rating.

The supplement was designed as an aid to streamline information out of the full POH (which you received with your books) and the PTS. The majority of the information that you need to learn is Multi operations, aerodynamics, engine out procedures, systems, manuevers, call-outs, etc... That information is in the Supplement and in the PTS (with exception of the specific systems and call-outs).

I'll say this... When you take a bunch instructors, give them full responsibility for an entire office operations with up to a couple of Million dollars worth of planes, and no direct supervisor... your going to have ups and downs. That's a tremendous amount of responsibility for guys making only 12-15k/year, working up to 7 days/week, and many of these guys it's their first real job. That is both one of the best things about working for ATP and one of the worst.

Sounds like you got in on a day where these guys may have been cutting up and letting off some steam. Not condoning the behavior, just offering a possible explanation.

As for your individual instructors knowledge... That was perhaps one of the easiest fixes. Simply request another instructor. At every location, FBO, academy, etc... there are good instructors, bad instructors, new "green" instructors, and old "seasoned" ones. Those who teaching comes naturally, and those who are working it out day by day to become comfortable with it... no matter where they got their ratings.

Basing an opinion like that on one day was quite extreme, but I think you are an extreme type of guy. (actually a compliment not a slam). Most of us in aviation are. Aviation is a science after all, and many things are black and white (extreme). You seemed to have two different extreme opinions after two different days. One day it met your expectations and you signed up whole hog... the next day it didn't meet your expectations and you pulled out 100%.

I can't blame you... your dealing with your future and a lot of money. Just be sure to realize in the future that dealing with people is a very grey area... and not black and white. If your flying with a Captain that doesn't meet your expectations you need to learn to how to deal with that... can't just jump ship whole hog... and believe it or not... you will fly with Captains who are less professional than you, take shortcuts, and who know much less than you! LOL! ask any FO.... of course the Captains will say the same!

Good luck in the future, thanks for posting the info., and be sure to keep us apprised of your progress in the FBO forums so that others new guys can watch your progress and ask questions as you did as well!

Take care!

Bob

[Cactus_Cutter]

Sorry Bluehen for your experience and how you were treated at ATP. Don’t let them discourage you in pursuing your dream. In one way I am not the least bit surprised. ATP does have some great instructors, however, they are few and far between. There seems to be some kind of disconnect in the screening and hiring process for qualified and professional CFI’s from their ACCP program. As far as being treated like a child that seems to be the cookie cutter way of treating everyone since there are people who are there who cannot carry themselves professionally. As far as Mr. Blank goes in giving your refund back, well, Mr. Blank is running a “Cash Cow” business these days and is only concerned about keeping the cash flowing and not the quality of the instruction. It shows when DEs get pissed off when they get students who are not even prepared for the oral portion of the checkride.

[wheelsup]

[ QUOTE ]

For what its worth, at this location, and maybe not all, they really were only going to teach what was needed for the checkride. Nothing more.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what ATP does. A former student is at ATP teaching and their CFII ride is practiced several times in the sim and once or twice in the plane. They know the "profile" as he called it that the examiners use and teach and train ONLY TO THAT.

~wheelsup

[Bluehen]

[/ QUOTE ] That was your impression after your other "first" day. Sounds like you went to Manassas.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capt. Bob,
I should have mentioned though that I did the interview in November 2004, the instructor I talked to then was if I recall correctly, "Casey". He had moved on to Dallas before I got back... As for the instructors, they have only 2 there. Thanks for not slamming me though Ill def. keep you guys posted. I actually just got back from my old school had a long talk with my flight instructor things are back on track... Thankfully!!

[Bluehen]

Oh yea, I just wanted to thank all you guys for not bashing me and actually being supportive. Ill keep you all posted!!!

[DE727UPS]

"Thanks for not slamming me though"

Don't ever be afraid of being slammed at jetcareers when you give your honest opinion is a respectful manner. I've been accused of eating cheeto's naked in a bean bag chair and called pond scum at another forum....and I'm a UPS 757 pilot. Just call it as you see it and don't worry about what people think.

[GaTechKid]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been accused of eating cheeto's naked in a bean bag chair

[/ QUOTE ]

Ron White making fun of his turboprop flight was the funniest comedy sketch I've seen in a long time.

[ryanmickG]

Great post Im sorry about your day a ATP I work here in Dallas and a Skymates instructor and work with all the ATP CFI's and they are all great guys you should have went here you would have had a better impression. I think captain bob was based here by the way how's Xjet captain bob.

[Captain_Bob]

Hey there Ryan...

Yeah... I instructed in Dallas. Was a great time... I hung out quite a bit at Skymates as well. Jim was a good friend of mine. Do the Skymates guys still do impressions/impersonations of KW (...one of ATP's DE's)?

Skymates is also where I personally rent from. My avatar pic was taken in 5SP. I'm checked out in the Arrow, the Cessnas, and the Seminoles over there. Great aircraft. I think Jim should have had is PC finished by now at XJT. Also... you guys just hired a great guy... TW. He'll be great fit for Skymates!

XJT is a great job so far. I'm currently on a 4 day that looks like this.

Day1:
EWR - MCI - IAH - BTR

Day 2:
BTR - IAH - GSO

Day 3:
GSO - EWR - YUL - EWR - YQB

Day 4:
YQB - EWR - CLT - EWR

I'm currently in BTR for the night. I really do love this job! But... I do enjoy flying GA out of GKY! I was just there about a week ago and flew in one of ATP's students' Archer for fun... good times...

Bob

[Captain_Bob]

[ QUOTE ]
Ill def. keep you guys posted. I actually just got back from my old school had a long talk with my flight instructor things are back on track... Thankfully!!


[/ QUOTE ] Awesome... that is great to hear. Sounds like you two work well together. We all have the same goal, so ... keep flyin' baby! woohoo!

[AdrockAviator]

That's what ATP does. A former student is at ATP teaching and their CFII ride is practiced several times in the sim and once or twice in the plane. They know the "profile" as he called it that the examiners use and teach and train ONLY TO THAT.

~wheelsup

[/ QUOTE ]

Wheelsup,
I think it is unfair to say that we only teach the "profile" here at ATP. Remember, it's still our job as ATP instructors to teach to the PTS standards. However, every checkride does have a "profile" for the most part. With most of the programs being so short in duration, it is our responsibility to expose you to every element you will be held accountable for on the checkride. Now if we happen to show you in the same "order" it is done on the checkride so be it. Who cares? Our job is to make sure you are proficient in every area you will be tested on.

[AdrockAviator]

Bluehen,
I can understand the arguments you make and I am sorry to hear about your experience with ATP. It sounds as if you might have a had a new instructor. The first week of training is pretty much teaching you about multi-engine aerodynamics and how to fly the plane in general. Remember, the examiner already knows you are a private pilot. Your oral should consist of multi-engine questions and even more general questions like do you know anything about the airplane you're about to take me up in? LOL. Its an add-on rating! Now, you do have a right to be disappointed with the instructor when you ask a question about things not in the training supplement that would help you solidify the information being presented. However, I don't feel that time should be spent on information with low priority. If that was the case, I don't know.

Your quote "Furthermore, the environment was so unprofessional it was like kids playing at home when their parents are out" is pretty funny. I can see it easily. I'm sure it seemed like everyone was running with their heads cut off, right? Put another way...."controlled chaos". ATP instructors have many responsiblities outside of just performing their everyday duties flying and teaching. They are under a lot of stress and they are dealing with deadlines (checkride dates) all the time. I guarantee one thing though, your training will get done even if you have to wait your turn to fly. The instructors are "FULLY" aware of the training that needs to be done.

I wish you would have given it more of a chance, but I respect what you felt you needed to do. As far as getting your money back, I'm sure "blank" was just disappointed you weren't going to give it more of a shot.

Good luck with everything and god bless!

[Bluehen]

Thanks.. Im still waiting for my refund, fortunetly they only dispursed the initial 7995 for training, but after the first phone call I made to their finance dept. I havent heard or been able to get anything other then a voice mail when I call.. Also, i was not credited, nor have I received re-imbursement for the 1000 deposit I was to get credited back when the initial 7995 was disbursed. Ie. I was told that I pay the 1000 deposit, then when the loan was disbursed, i would get the 1000 deposit back to my card and they would just deduct that from the loan. Its funny how they always ask my name when i call, then tell me that no one is in.

[buffalopilot]

I went to ATP in Jacksonville, and I found that the pilots who quit the program were not smart enough to do it, or too lazy to try. I found ATP to be like pilot boot-camp, some have it others dont!

[Bluehen]

Well Buffalo Pilot,
Seeing as you have only one post, you obviously either work for ATP(poss. at Manassas) or know someone who does and posted only in response to this thread. EIther way, say what you will about those who quit the program, but regardless of your experiences(true or not true) I can only attest from my own personal experience. I decided to quit because I knew more then the instructor, and if I didnt he did a pretty good acting job, but why? 37k is a lot to dump into flight training, but worth it, although, not at ATP Manassas. As I said in my earlier post, It may be different at other locations, but the truth is the truth. If an instructor doesnt know the basics, it makes me scared. As for it being like boot camp, its most def. not. Its like reading cliffs notes. And how do you do a dual oral exam with an F.A.A examiner? Thats another thing I forgot to mention... THey were going to set us up for a dual oral with the examiner before the checkride.

[buffalopilot]

Well, Mr Bluehen, for your information, the airline interview process has 2 or more pilots with an interviewer, so if you are saying that ATP's style of 2 pilots per examiner is bad, then you are saying that the airlines don't know what they are doing either!

[Bluehen]

What I am saying is that in the learning process, when you are obtaining your ratings, I think it is a bad thing if you have 2 students taking an oral exam together with an examiner. How can the examiner be sure that you both know all the required material. In fact, that was what they were joking about at ATP, how much easier it is when you have 2 students together during the exam. Now, when you have 1000's of hours, and all your ratings, then it is a different story when you have a job interview together. When did I say that either the Examiner or the airlines dont know what they are doing.

[Bluehen]

Just an update on the refund. I attempted to contact the women from finances at ATP several times today. I finally got through. I asked her about the refund as well as the 1000 deposit that was supposed to get credited back to me. She was very indignant and curt, and said that "Were very busy here" and "I didnt call you back because I didnt have anything to tell you". Wow, I know there busy, busy enough to take your money and say that they need it right away for the training, and can fed ex out the paper work. But I guess there too busy to talk to someone about getting there money back, Or refunding the deposit on the time they said they would, which was the time of the first disbursement. Maybe I am the only one who has met with this problem, lets see if they stick to their word about having the funds sent back to the lender within 10 days. Maybe a call to the Better business bureau would help. If it sounds like i am getting pissed, I am.

[ QUOTE ]

What types of complaints does the BBB handle?
Complaints involving marketplace activities -- misleading advertising, improper selling practices, non-delivery of goods or services, misrepresentation, un-honored guarantees or warranty, unsatisfactory service, credit/billing problems, contracts not fulfilled, etc., are handled by the Better Business Bureau where the company is located.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

BBB of Northeast Florida
4417 Beach Blvd., Suite 202
Jacksonville, FL 32207

BBB Reliability Report

Airline Transport Professionals, Inc.
Po Box 1784
Ponte Vedra, FL 32004
MAP
General Information
Original Business
Start Date unknown

BBB File Opened June 12, 1997

Principal Contact Owner/Manager

Complaint Contact Owner/Manager

Other Contacts none

BBB Member No
Type of Business Airlines-Training Schools


The information in this report has either been provided by the company, or has been compiled by the Bureau from other sources.


Additional File Information
The Bureau has requested basic information from this company. The Bureau has not received a response.

Additional Information

This Business Operates under the Names Airline Transport Professionals, Inc.


Addresses Po Box 1784, Ponte Vedra, FL 32004 MAP


Phones (904) 273-3018



[/ QUOTE ]

[casey]

[ QUOTE ]
What I am saying is that in the learning process, when you are obtaining your ratings, I think it is a bad thing if you have 2 students taking an oral exam together with an examiner. How can the examiner be sure that you both know all the required material. In fact, that was what they were joking about at ATP, how much easier it is when you have 2 students together during the exam. Now, when you have 1000's of hours, and all your ratings, then it is a different story when you have a job interview together. When did I say that either the Examiner or the airlines dont know what they are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Examiners only do dual orals because the FAA has said it is ok to do so, and as for he being able to tell each students knowledge, thats his job and im sure he's good at it. If the examiner doesnt think he can do that, you wont do a dual oral. Its not ATP's decision there, its the examiners willingness.

Which examiner were you going to go with anyway? I instructed in manassas for 6 months, and if it is who i think it is you most assuredly would not have had the problem of it being "easier", hes one of the tougher examiners i can name off the top of my head.

[Bluehen]

Casey,
I think I met you back in november when I did the initial interview. Too bad you didnt stay, I would prob. have had a much better experience. If you scroll through some of my orevious posts, I mentioned that you were very knowledgeable, so I'm not going to get into anything with you. Im just sorry you werent there when I got there.