Another new program post

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 08:43

Good morning, everyone:

Just finish a phone from Jim. Here is what I have so far with new program(shold start by 1st of 2005).

The new program includes:
1. ACPP(airline career pilot program), not include CFI ratings.
2. 50 CRJ sim
3. ATP wriiten
4. 320 hours in DA-40, C172, or Seminoles in 6 months*
5. Housing
6. 3 Hour citation jet time
7. Total cost: 67990.
34,995 for ACPP, *32995 for driect track program
8. 3 months after you graduate, ATP will help you get a job
9. If no job after 3 months, you will be given back 10,000 $

What are you guys thinking about this program?

adreamer

Ace_High · November 18th, 2004, 09:22

Sounds interesting, but would that be enough total time to get hired? And would those interviewing you be cool with just flying around to build time, as opposed to instructing or doing something more constructive?

Would the time be on a combination of the three planes? Obviously the Seminole would be more valuable than the 172.

Is part of the reason for this too many students wanting to become instructors?

I guess those are some of my initial questions/concerns. I start ATP in January - so something for me to think about, but I kind of liked the idea of being an instructor.

PaulThomas · November 18th, 2004, 10:07

What kind of job will they help you get???
That makes a lot of difference

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 11:18

according to Jim, any part 121 carrier job.

GlobalTracker · November 18th, 2004, 11:48

How much TT would that be? If it's the ACPP + the new program would that be 140hrs +320hrs? And would you still get 140hrs in the ACPP program if you didn't do the CFI ratings?

draglink · November 18th, 2004, 11:51

hmmm....thats a good question! give us some more info.

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 12:26

The total time should be somewhere around 600 hours in your log book. Remember, you come into the program with your private, 25 X-C PIC, and total 85 hours or more.

As far as airline job, it is "whoever is hiring at the moment"

I assume that you will get about 125 ~ 130 hours in seminoles

adreamer

RPM · November 18th, 2004, 14:16

So when you don't get the job (ATP can't just magically get you a job if/when the airlines stop hiring)....your $57,990 + interest in debt with NO CFI ratings and around 550tt.

Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me! Sounds like ATP is trying to turn into DCA part II.

Their regular cheaper program is much better.

edmondfitzgerald · November 18th, 2004, 15:08

Think about this...

Career Pilot Program was $31,995 in 2003. You needed about 1,500 total to interview at regionals. Now, less than half of what is req'd and an industry in hiring frenzy mode, ATP wants $60,000 and a phoney "guarantee".

I'm s'prise they don't put Sally Struthers on T.V. and sell you a 4-year degree to go with it.

In case you weren't around for Archie Bunker, here's Sally's website...

http://members.tripod.com/sallystruthers/

robair73 · November 18th, 2004, 16:41

Being an ATP grad, I'm very dissapointed in this sham that they've concocted. One of the reasons I chose ATP was because they seemed more genuine than the rest, and didn't make false promises like so many others. This program to me was developed for one reason only - MORE MONEY!

Like RPM said, who wants 600TT with no CFI ratings when the airlines don't hire you? Big deal, they refund you $10K when you don't get hired. You know where that money is going, right into their 2 week CFI program so you can get the ratings that you need. And on top of it, I garauntee that you're sharing that time in the DA-40 with a stranger. Half hood, half safety pilot. You know what, I can rent a DA-40 for the same price that they are offering and fly when I want, where I want, and with who I want.

To me this program completely sucks and it's a shame that ATP is going down the same road so many other crappy flight schools have gone.

Pfly · November 18th, 2004, 18:35

People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first?

PaulThomas · November 18th, 2004, 21:36

True.

I hope someone at ATP is reading this and taking notes however. It seems to me if they were to put this program in place, they'd be shooting themselve in the food.

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 21:43

Well, I think I should keep it under wrap. Doug, can you this post go away?

adreamer

ps: For those who has questions, PM me

cavu4u · November 18th, 2004, 22:27

[ QUOTE ]
People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pfly is right. Let's all just wait 'til the specifics regarding this "new" program comes out before we jump to too many conclusions. Like I mentioned in another thread, if in fact ATP is developing a new program like the one described above, I'm sure they'll ensure it's of real value and not simply a rip-off. Time will tell.

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 22:45

Well, I have to wait and see what is the final figure is. However, this is what I have been told today.

adreamer

AdrockAviator · November 18th, 2004, 22:54

You all make good points, but you fail to realize what's happening behind closed doors. Relationships are being established with regional airlines across the country at a growing rate and ATP is trying to tailor their own training to meet their needs.

The reason ATP has chosen to go with the Da40 is because the regional airlines are asking for candidates to have more glass-cockpit experience. All of ATP's Da40s will be configured with the Garmin 1000 all glass flightdeck. This experience along with ATP's RJ certification program will give pilots the tools necessary to be competitive in this industry. More importantly, when they do actually get that job, they won't be intimidated by all the bells and whistles.

This program is going to happen people. You will see advertisements coming very soon in a magazine near you. This program is also targeting ATP career pilots who do not want to instruct. The exact details will be shared soon enough.

edmondfitzgerald · November 18th, 2004, 23:15

[ QUOTE ]
People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems official. Jim Koziarski offered it up to somebody over the phone according to the posting individual. The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors

ATP used to be trusted. Today, however, I'm skeptical.

adreamer · November 18th, 2004, 23:22

Well, don't tear down ATP name yet. It is not official yet. It is just what I heard today.

adreamer

robair73 · November 19th, 2004, 11:21

Well the last thing I want to do is give ATP a bad name. I did all of my ratings with them, Private through Instructor. The last thing I want is to have the flight school I attended to have a bad reputation. But, recent events and decisions made seem to be leading them down the same road that so many hokey flight schools have gone down. First the CRJ sim and now the DA-40. I don't see a need for either by the customer. That's all I'm saying. It's my opinion. It's not ATP bashing, god forbid we wouldn't want that.

stuckingfk · November 19th, 2004, 14:00

[ QUOTE ]
Well the last thing I want to do is give ATP a bad name. I did all of my ratings with them, Private through Instructor. The last thing I want is to have the flight school I attended to have a bad reputation. But, recent events and decisions made seem to be leading them down the same road that so many hokey flight schools have gone down. First the CRJ sim and now the DA-40. I don't see a need for either by the customer. That's all I'm saying. It's my opinion. It's not ATP bashing, god forbid we wouldn't want that.

[/ QUOTE ]

To everyone, not just robair, this is a business. It may seem worthless to you to add something like this to their program, but have to know that first and foremost, ATP is a business.

ATP has found ways to offer more, and charge a lot more for it. There are plenty of suckers to take ATP up on theseoffers, so why wouldn't they have it in their business, especially if it makes them $$$?

edmondfitzgerald · November 19th, 2004, 15:11

A business is a collection of people. People have a conscience...a sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives. I hope ATP does the right thing. I've recommended a multitude of friends, acquaintences, and passers-by to them because they've always been straight shooters. I don't agree with the way they pay or treat their instructors, but it seems their instructors know the road before taking it, and it's a cost savings to us, the customers. When I hear about schemes that don't make sense, expect in lining corporate pockets at the expense of their workers and customers, then it's time to speak up and pull down the "it's a business" camouflage that people use to hide their conscience.

Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry.

Thanks for your support.

robair73 · November 19th, 2004, 16:32

[ QUOTE ]
Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

Pfly · November 19th, 2004, 23:53

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems official. Jim Koziarski offered it up to somebody over the phone according to the posting individual. The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors

ATP used to be trusted. Today, however, I'm skeptical.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't know just which "grapevine" you've been listening to, but you obviously know very little about the RJ program and our instructors' participation in it. What "finders fee" might you be talking about? As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate.

pscraig · November 20th, 2004, 16:21

[ QUOTE ]

The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope....I was hired at XJT like everyone else, and definitely did not and would not pay any fee to ATP.

Sounds like your grapevine is making sour grapes.

edmondfitzgerald · November 21st, 2004, 19:23

As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant! "Deferred payment" instead of "finders fee". An eloquent choice of words.

"Ice Ice BABY"

Yo ATP, Let's kick it!
Ice Ice Baby
Ice Ice Baby
All right stop
Collaborate and listen
ATP is back with my brand new flight program invention
Somemoney grabs ahold of me tightly
Then I flow like a Seminole daily and nightly
Will it ever stop?
Yo-- I don't know
Turn off the lights and I'll glow
To the extreme I fly a Frasca like a vandal
Light up a runway and wax a landing like a candle
Oink
Bum rush the speaker that booms
I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom
Deadly, when I play a dope melody
Anything less than free money is a felony
Love it or leave it
You better gain way
You better take our new program
The kid don't have to pay
If there was a problem
Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it
Ice Ice Baby New Program
Ice Ice Baby Deferred Payment
Ice Ice Baby You don't need it
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

November 18th, 2004, 08:43	#1
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Another new program post Good morning, everyone: Just finish a phone from Jim. Here is what I have so far with new program(shold start by 1st of 2005). The new program includes: 1. ACPP(airline career pilot program), not include CFI ratings. 2. 50 CRJ sim 3. ATP wriiten 4. 320 hours in DA-40, C172, or Seminoles in 6 months* 5. Housing 6. 3 Hour citation jet time 7. Total cost: 67990. 34,995 for ACPP, *32995 for driect track program 8. 3 months after you graduate, ATP will help you get a job 9. If no job after 3 months, you will be given back 10,000 $ What are you guys thinking about this program? adreamer

November 18th, 2004, 09:22	#2
Ace_High Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: SE Pennsylvania Posts: 33	Re: Another new program post Sounds interesting, but would that be enough total time to get hired? And would those interviewing you be cool with just flying around to build time, as opposed to instructing or doing something more constructive? Would the time be on a combination of the three planes? Obviously the Seminole would be more valuable than the 172. Is part of the reason for this too many students wanting to become instructors? I guess those are some of my initial questions/concerns. I start ATP in January - so something for me to think about, but I kind of liked the idea of being an instructor.

November 18th, 2004, 10:07	#3
PaulThomas Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Naples, FL KAPF Posts: 46	Re: Another new program post What kind of job will they help you get??? That makes a lot of difference

November 18th, 2004, 11:18	#4
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Re: Another new program post according to Jim, any part 121 carrier job.

November 18th, 2004, 11:48	#5
GlobalTracker Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 10	Re: Another new program post How much TT would that be? If it's the ACPP + the new program would that be 140hrs +320hrs? And would you still get 140hrs in the ACPP program if you didn't do the CFI ratings?

November 18th, 2004, 11:51	#6
draglink Newbie Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: hampton roads,virginia Posts: 29	Re: Another new program post hmmm....thats a good question! give us some more info.

November 18th, 2004, 12:26	#7
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Re: Another new program post The total time should be somewhere around 600 hours in your log book. Remember, you come into the program with your private, 25 X-C PIC, and total 85 hours or more. As far as airline job, it is "whoever is hiring at the moment" I assume that you will get about 125 ~ 130 hours in seminoles adreamer

November 18th, 2004, 14:16	#8
RPM Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: LAX Posts: 658	Re: Another new program post So when you don't get the job (ATP can't just magically get you a job if/when the airlines stop hiring)....your $57,990 + interest in debt with NO CFI ratings and around 550tt. Doesn't sound like a very good idea to me! Sounds like ATP is trying to turn into DCA part II. Their regular cheaper program is much better.

November 18th, 2004, 15:08	#9
edmondfitzgerald Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Re: Another new program post Think about this... Career Pilot Program was $31,995 in 2003. You needed about 1,500 total to interview at regionals. Now, less than half of what is req'd and an industry in hiring frenzy mode, ATP wants $60,000 and a phoney "guarantee". I'm s'prise they don't put Sally Struthers on T.V. and sell you a 4-year degree to go with it. In case you weren't around for Archie Bunker, here's Sally's website... http://members.tripod.com/sallystruthers/

November 18th, 2004, 16:41	#10
robair73 Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chi town Posts: 519	Re: Another new program post Being an ATP grad, I'm very dissapointed in this sham that they've concocted. One of the reasons I chose ATP was because they seemed more genuine than the rest, and didn't make false promises like so many others. This program to me was developed for one reason only - MORE MONEY! Like RPM said, who wants 600TT with no CFI ratings when the airlines don't hire you? Big deal, they refund you $10K when you don't get hired. You know where that money is going, right into their 2 week CFI program so you can get the ratings that you need. And on top of it, I garauntee that you're sharing that time in the DA-40 with a stranger. Half hood, half safety pilot. You know what, I can rent a DA-40 for the same price that they are offering and fly when I want, where I want, and with who I want. To me this program completely sucks and it's a shame that ATP is going down the same road so many other crappy flight schools have gone.

November 18th, 2004, 18:35	#11
Pfly Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: JAX Posts: 154	Re: Another new program post People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first?

November 18th, 2004, 21:36	#12
PaulThomas Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Naples, FL KAPF Posts: 46	Re: Another new program post True. I hope someone at ATP is reading this and taking notes however. It seems to me if they were to put this program in place, they'd be shooting themselve in the food.

November 18th, 2004, 21:43	#13
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Re: Another new program post Well, I think I should keep it under wrap. Doug, can you this post go away? adreamer ps: For those who has questions, PM me

November 18th, 2004, 22:27	#14
cavu4u Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 87	Re: Another new program post [ QUOTE ] People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first? [/ QUOTE ] Pfly is right. Let's all just wait 'til the specifics regarding this "new" program comes out before we jump to too many conclusions. Like I mentioned in another thread, if in fact ATP is developing a new program like the one described above, I'm sure they'll ensure it's of real value and not simply a rip-off. Time will tell.

November 18th, 2004, 22:45	#15
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Re: Another new program post Well, I have to wait and see what is the final figure is. However, this is what I have been told today. adreamer

November 18th, 2004, 22:54	#16
AdrockAviator Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 76	Re: Another new program post You all make good points, but you fail to realize what's happening behind closed doors. Relationships are being established with regional airlines across the country at a growing rate and ATP is trying to tailor their own training to meet their needs. The reason ATP has chosen to go with the Da40 is because the regional airlines are asking for candidates to have more glass-cockpit experience. All of ATP's Da40s will be configured with the Garmin 1000 all glass flightdeck. This experience along with ATP's RJ certification program will give pilots the tools necessary to be competitive in this industry. More importantly, when they do actually get that job, they won't be intimidated by all the bells and whistles. This program is going to happen people. You will see advertisements coming very soon in a magazine near you. This program is also targeting ATP career pilots who do not want to instruct. The exact details will be shared soon enough.

November 18th, 2004, 23:15	#17
edmondfitzgerald Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Re: Another new program post [ QUOTE ] People, this is a program which has not been officially announced in any way, is still in the developmental stage, and which probably should not have been "announced" in this forum for exactly those reasons. I'm sure no matter what the end result is, there will be diametrically opposed opinions no matter what, but shouldn't we wait and see just what it is they're offering first? [/ QUOTE ] Seems official. Jim Koziarski offered it up to somebody over the phone according to the posting individual. The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors ATP used to be trusted. Today, however, I'm skeptical.

November 18th, 2004, 23:22	#18
adreamer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: AZO Posts: 1,327	Re: Another new program post Well, don't tear down ATP name yet. It is not official yet. It is just what I heard today. adreamer

November 19th, 2004, 11:21	#19
robair73 Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chi town Posts: 519	Re: Another new program post Well the last thing I want to do is give ATP a bad name. I did all of my ratings with them, Private through Instructor. The last thing I want is to have the flight school I attended to have a bad reputation. But, recent events and decisions made seem to be leading them down the same road that so many hokey flight schools have gone down. First the CRJ sim and now the DA-40. I don't see a need for either by the customer. That's all I'm saying. It's my opinion. It's not ATP bashing, god forbid we wouldn't want that.

November 19th, 2004, 14:00	#20
stuckingfk Old Skool Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: El Forko Grande Posts: 2,575	Re: Another new program post [ QUOTE ] Well the last thing I want to do is give ATP a bad name. I did all of my ratings with them, Private through Instructor. The last thing I want is to have the flight school I attended to have a bad reputation. But, recent events and decisions made seem to be leading them down the same road that so many hokey flight schools have gone down. First the CRJ sim and now the DA-40. I don't see a need for either by the customer. That's all I'm saying. It's my opinion. It's not ATP bashing, god forbid we wouldn't want that. [/ QUOTE ] To everyone, not just robair, this is a business. It may seem worthless to you to add something like this to their program, but have to know that first and foremost, ATP is a business. ATP has found ways to offer more, and charge a lot more for it. There are plenty of suckers to take ATP up on theseoffers, so why wouldn't they have it in their business, especially if it makes them $$$?

November 19th, 2004, 15:11	#21
edmondfitzgerald Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Re: Another new program post A business is a collection of people. People have a conscience...a sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives. I hope ATP does the right thing. I've recommended a multitude of friends, acquaintences, and passers-by to them because they've always been straight shooters. I don't agree with the way they pay or treat their instructors, but it seems their instructors know the road before taking it, and it's a cost savings to us, the customers. When I hear about schemes that don't make sense, expect in lining corporate pockets at the expense of their workers and customers, then it's time to speak up and pull down the "it's a business" camouflage that people use to hide their conscience. Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry. Thanks for your support.

November 19th, 2004, 16:32	#22
robair73 Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Chi town Posts: 519	Re: Another new program post [ QUOTE ] Let's see how it irons out. Some very good arguments both ways. I hope it's all a rumor mill gone awry and there is a "better" program coming to meet the needs of the industry. [/ QUOTE ] agreed.

November 19th, 2004, 23:53	#23
Pfly Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: JAX Posts: 154	Re: Another new program post [/ QUOTE ] Seems official. Jim Koziarski offered it up to somebody over the phone according to the posting individual. The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors ATP used to be trusted. Today, however, I'm skeptical. [/ QUOTE ] Well, I don't know just which "grapevine" you've been listening to, but you obviously know very little about the RJ program and our instructors' participation in it. What "finders fee" might you be talking about? As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate.

November 20th, 2004, 16:21	#24
pscraig Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,021	Re: Another new program post [ QUOTE ] The "grape-vine" says they've tried "versions" of their "you pay us, we put you in the sim with ExpressJet, you get hired, you pay us a finders fee" program on their current flight instructors [/ QUOTE ] Nope....I was hired at XJT like everyone else, and definitely did not and would not pay any fee to ATP. Sounds like your grapevine is making sour grapes.

November 21st, 2004, 19:23	#25
edmondfitzgerald Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Re: Another new program post As it stands right now, instructors with sufficient TT are invited to take the course, culminating in a checkride with SOME regional, (not necessarily ExpressJet by the way) and when interviewed or hired, you can then pay for the program. This is not a "finders fee", it is a deferred payment on the program to help the instructors out, and no one is forced to participate. [/ QUOTE ] Brilliant! "Deferred payment" instead of "finders fee". An eloquent choice of words. "Ice Ice BABY" Yo ATP, Let's kick it! Ice Ice Baby Ice Ice Baby All right stop Collaborate and listen ATP is back with my brand new flight program invention Somemoney grabs ahold of me tightly Then I flow like a Seminole daily and nightly Will it ever stop? Yo-- I don't know Turn off the lights and I'll glow To the extreme I fly a Frasca like a vandal Light up a runway and wax a landing like a candle Oink Bum rush the speaker that booms I'm killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom Deadly, when I play a dope melody Anything less than free money is a felony Love it or leave it You better gain way You better take our new program The kid don't have to pay If there was a problem Yo, I'll solve it Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it Ice Ice Baby New Program Ice Ice Baby Deferred Payment Ice Ice Baby You don't need it Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

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