Skywest to fly for Airtran

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by jynxyjoe

Right but that doesn't address Wheelsup argument.

Regionals were designed for and most pilots still think of them as a stepping stone and not a career destination. Regionals are an entry level airline position. It's not reasonable to expect end level pay and benefits from an entry level job. Kind of like a burger flipper at McDonald's bitching that he can't raise a family, buy a house and put his kids through college on what he makes and needs to make 6 figures for his entry level $8/hr job.

The sad reality is that with the outsourcing of flying, the regionals have become a career for the majority of regional pilots. Until regional pilots get rid of the mindset of it being a stepping stone, I don't ever see meaningful increases in pay and benefits.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

Regionals were designed for and most pilots still think of them as a stepping stone and not a career destination. Regionals are an entry level airline position. It's not reasonable to expect end level pay and benefits from an entry level job. Kind of like a burger flipper at McDonald's bitching that he can't raise a family, buy a house and put his kids through college on what he makes and needs to make 6 figures for his entry level $8/hr job.

The sad reality is that with the outsourcing of flying, the regionals have become a career for the majority of regional pilots. Until regional pilots get rid of the mindset of it being a stepping stone, I don't ever see meaningful increases in pay and benefits.

Now I agree with that 100%.

But this will never ever change. It's gone and will be gone forever. The management of the majors combined with the captains of regionals and majors selling everyone else out, there's no chance for recovery.

Smart thing to do is get out of this industry.

[cencal83406]

Yep, and the growth of regionals was fueled by senior Captains at major airlines as well, giving up scope so that their pay rates could remain. That just hurts the bottom of their list. Now we're getting the same thing at our regional - our senior Captains are prepared to sell us out. I love the argument from our senior guys that the reserve rules in our TA were way better than our current contract - and they haven't sat reserve in 20+ years...

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by stuckingfk

Now I agree with that 100%.

But this will never ever change. It's gone and will be gone forever. The management of the majors combined with the captains of regionals and majors selling everyone else out, there's no chance for recovery.

Smart thing to do is get out of this industry.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The guys that think that the time were are in is just some sort of down cycle like they had in the past, are sorely mistaken. This is a fundamental changing of the business model for the pax carriers. It will never be like it was in the "glory days" that most dream of when they began flight training. That, by itself, is a major problem.

[cencal83406]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

Unfortunately, I think you are right. The guys that think that the time were are in is just some sort of down cycle like that had in the past, are sorely mistaken. This is a fundamental changing of the business model for the pax carriers. It will never be like it was in the "glory days" that most dream of when that begin flight training. That, by itself, is a major problem.

What do you foresee in regards to the box-hauler carriers? Is that still a good destination now? 5 years from now? 10??

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by cencal83406

What do you foresee in regards to the box-hauler carriers? Is that still a good destination now? 5 years from now? 10??

For UPS, I think so. We are going through some overstaffing issues related to age 65, retiring the DC-8 fleet and UPS making the network more efficient with larger a/c replacing multiple smaller a/c in a city. The barriers to entry in the express package market are just too high for any meaningful competitor to try and start (DHL). UPS' long range plan is for steady growth of the airline internationally as the domestic market is mostly mature. The plan is getting around 50-60 more jets of 767 and larger in the next 10 years.

[bike21]

Back on topic here, I am still trying to digest this information about this new deal. It is natural for FL guys to be concerned about outsourcing and the slippery slope and I don't blame them. On the other hand, this isn't your typical regional lift deal and it is very limited for the moment at least. It would seem mutually beneficial, but a few logistical things are concerning:

- flowing our crews & a/c through ORD is a mistake - the airplanes likely won't be in MKE on time for the FL flights - we need to re-open the MKE base to have a better chance of success
- the lack of FL type amenities is very unfortunate
- defining which routes are acceptable for the CRJ vs. mainline FL, this needs to be 'feeder' and not 'replacement' flying IMHO

I don't get the warm fuzzies necessarily about the deal and I certainly hope this isn't the start of something bad. I am trying to be objective as possible and I ask everyone else to do the same.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by bike21

Back on topic here, I am still trying to digest this information about this new deal. It is natural for FL guys to be concerned about outsourcing and the slippery slope and I don't blame them. On the other hand, this isn't your typical regional lift deal and it is very limited for the moment at least. It would seem mutually beneficial, but a few logistical things are concerning:

- flowing our crews & a/c through ORD is a mistake - the airplanes likely won't be in MKE on time for the FL flights - we need to re-open the MKE base to have a better chance of success
- the lack of FL type amenities is very unfortunate
- defining which routes are acceptable for the CRJ vs. mainline FL, this needs to be 'feeder' and not 'replacement' flying IMHO

I don't get the warm fuzzies necessarily about the deal and I certainly hope this isn't the start of something bad. I am trying to be objective as possible and I ask everyone else to do the same.

What's to stop Airtran from entering a code share with any regional to fly 717 size a/c? This wouldn't be the traditional express FFD or pro-rate, but a true code share like most the majors do with other majors.

[bike21]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

What's to stop Airtran from entering a code share with any regional to fly 717 size a/c? This wouldn't be the traditional express FFD or pro-rate, but a true code share like most the majors do with other majors.

Exactly, that is a good question. Scope? I am not aware of the FL contract particulars and I hope the scope language is solid. I for one do not want to participate in degrading FL's status, jobs or profitability.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

Regionals were designed for and most pilots still think of them as a stepping stone and not a career destination. Regionals are an entry level airline position. It's not reasonable to expect end level pay and benefits from an entry level job. Kind of like a burger flipper at McDonald's bitching that he can't raise a family, buy a house and put his kids through college on what he makes and needs to make 6 figures for his entry level $8/hr job.

The sad reality is that with the outsourcing of flying, the regionals have become a career for the majority of regional pilots. Until regional pilots get rid of the mindset of it being a stepping stone, I don't ever see meaningful increases in pay and benefits.

So then it is an attitude then, and not your original argument of:

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

With all do respect, the endless supply of wannabe airline pilots gives regional pilot groups little or no leverage to make substantial gains in pay and benefits. Management knows this. Why would they pay existing guys more when they have guys chomping at the bit to work there at the existing pay?

Your original argument implys that the few thousand that want my job makes my wages low whereas the tens of thousands that want your job somehow make it better paying.

Just as long as we are in agreement.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by jynxyjoe

So then it is an attitude then, and not your original argument of:


Your original argument implys that the few thousand that want my job makes my wages low whereas the tens of thousands that want your job somehow make it better paying.

Just as long as we are in agreement.

My job pays better than yours because mine is not an entry level job.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

My job pays better than yours because mine is not an entry level job.

Your job pays better than mine because your union and pilots have leverage. We have none. It has everything to do with the RFP process and less to do with how many pilots want my job, or how my job isn't a career type job. Just a few short years ago my company had aircraft on the property that paid CA's, adjusted for inflation, almost $150/hr w/ 2:1 duty rig and 3.5:1 trip rig. The company itself has been around since 1965. Mins were 2500 TT and 1000 turbine.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

Your job pays better than mine because your union and pilots have leverage. We have none. It has everything to do with the RFP process and less to do with how many pilots want my job, or how my job isn't a career type job. Just a few short years ago my company had aircraft on the property that paid CA's, adjusted for inflation, almost $150/hr w/ 2:1 duty rig and 3.5:1 trip rig. The company itself has been around since 1965. Mins were 2500 TT and 1000 turbine.

What happened?

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

What happened?

RFP's happened. The pilot group lost their leverage, and wages and aircraft were shed.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

RFP's happened. The pilot group lost their leverage, and wages and aircraft were shed.

Unfortunately, it sounds like your segment of the industry is not able to sustain higher wages or leverage due to the business fundamentals of the regionals. Fortunately, my segment is.

[wheelsup]

But that has nothing to do with your job being a non-entry level job either.

I think one could successful argue that United Airlines isn't an entry level job yet their pay has been cut by 50%, 60% if you include inflation, and their pensions were taken.

Same goes for US Air.

Same goes for Delta.

Same goes for Continental.

Sames goes for American, minus the pension comment.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

But that has nothing to do with your job being a non-entry level job either.

I think one could successful argue that United Airlines isn't an entry level job yet their pay has been cut by 50%, 60% if you include inflation, and their pensions were taken.

Same goes for US Air.

Same goes for Delta.

Same goes for Continental.

Sames goes for American, minus the pension comment.

My segment of the industry basically has only two players and we successfully drove away the third who tried to be the low cost alternative (DHL). This duopoly allows us the pay and benefits we enjoy. Unfortunately, for the pax carriers there is too much capacity and too much competition.

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

Unfortunately, for the pax carriers there is too much capacity and too much competition.

Agreed on that point. That rings true at both the majors and the regionals. Personally, I think both A300F4 and wheelsup are correct in their assessment of our pay and benefit issues. It's not only because we're viewed "entry level," but also because we have no leverage. It's not just one reason, but rather a combination of reasons that all continue to put downward pressure on our compensation.

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

My segment of the industry basically has only two players and we successfully drove away the third who tried to be the low cost alternative (DHL). This duopoly allows us the pay and benefits we enjoy. Unfortunately, for the pax carriers there is too much capacity and too much competition.

How was the pay and benefits when you started? How long ago?

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

How was the pay and benefits when you started? How long ago?

1985 flying canceled checks, PA-60 Aerostar, $23,000/yr. Decent benefits.

[Bumblebee]

...and that was for UPS itself?

[kellwolf]

I remember back in the day (circa 2006) when regionals WEREN'T entry level jobs. You actually had to have SOME sort of experience either towing banners, CFIing, survey work etc to get hired at a regional, even.....

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

...and that was for UPS itself?

No.

[GaTechKid]

It seems to me that this codeshare means SkyWest will ,in effect, have their own branded airline, sans reservation system. The SkyWest name will be all over the aircraft and cabin. When the customer purchases the ticket on AirTrans website they can clearly see that their flight is on "SkyWest Airlines" and not "AirTranny Express." SkyWest purchases the fuel, schedules the flights, manages the seat inventory, sets the price, etc...

[Bumblebee]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

My segment of the industry basically has only two players and we successfully drove away the third who tried to be the low cost alternative (DHL).

Who is we? UPS?

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

How was the pay and benefits when you started? How long ago?

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

1985 flying canceled checks, PA-60 Aerostar, $23,000/yr. Decent benefits.

Originally Posted by Bumblebee

...and that was for UPS itself?

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

No.

OK when did you start at UPS?