Skywest to fly for Airtran

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

The point being management either makes or losses money not the union. You seem to think the union has a say if a company makes money or not.

Are you saying the union has no effect on the health of the company?

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Airtran wouldn't have these routes if skywest wasn't flying them.

Hate to break it to you, junior, but one of those routes is already an AirTran route with a B717 flying full flights consistently. Maybe you should get your facts straight before spreading your union-hate.

Yeah what do the CEOs know about business.

Yes, those airline CEOs have been so successful. After all, you never see airline bankruptcies.

[Doug Taylor]

I don't think it's hate, we just haven't reached him.

I was "there" early in career too before I got a good taste of reality!

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Are you saying the union has no effect on the health of the company?

Compared to management very little. Look at AMR under Crandall.

[Doug Taylor]

Are the VPs multiplying like the monoliths on Jupiter on "2010: A Space Odyssey"?

I think we even had a VP of VP's on VP acquisitions during the 50-plus VP days at Southernjets.

You figure more VPs, in a particular perspective, would be indicative of a wildly profitable company, eh?

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Are the VPs multiplying like the monoliths on Jupiter on "2010: A Space Odyssey"?

I think we even had a VP of VP's on VP acquisitions during the 50-plus VP days at Southernjets.

You figure more VPs, in a particular perspective, would be indicative of a wildly profitable company, eh?

Ask SteveC for a copy of my deleted post for my true opinion on Killtron, haha.

I chose the unwise option of posting sober. 2 glasses of crown have corrected the error in my ways!

[Doug Taylor]

Ooh, a cocktail sounds yummy. Let me dig around the fridge for a little tonic.

[mrivc211]

All I gotta say is thank you Kiltron. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

YOU have just shown the JC community what I have to put up with 95% percent of the time that I fly.

Just imagine flying every trip and your FO trying to convince you that having a union is bad for growth. etc etc etc etc etc etc etc IT GETS OLD AFTER 6 YEARS.

[mwflyer]

I've tried to warn you guys not to let killtron get you worked up. He cant be reached or saved. He's Lorenzo's son. Ignore him, and he will go away, he loves the attention.

[mrivc211]

Originally Posted by mwflyer

I've tried to warn you guys not to let killtron get you worked up. He cant be reached or saved. He's Lorenzo's son. Ignore him, and he will go away, he loves the attention.

Its not just him. Its the majority of a certain regional.

[greaper007]

Killtron and I used to argue on here all the time. Then one day I got a new student who was extremely knowledgeable about systems and wasn't a bad stick. He was ok to hang out with too. It took about 2 weeks to realize that he was Killtron.

Kill, I'm not sure what you're doing these days and I realize you're an extreme libertarian. Blanket statements about unions don't apply to all industries though. Unions in the auto industry or textiles or even grocery stores are completely different animals than airline unions. If it helps you just call them skilled trade organizations instead, then read what some of the senior people have to say.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian

Doug,

I've said it before and I have said it again, remember that conversation we had in the crew room and your post that was a result of it? Where was that? Every time a thread like this pops up I think it might be a good idea to re-post that. You know, I love it when folks that have nothing to do with the airline pilot profession proclaim how much more they know than us. Pure awesomeness!

We need to grab a beer, pronto.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

I'm not trying to pull rank here, but there are a number of us that are "in" the business trying to drop some knowledge to help you out. I'd heavily suggest taking the opportunity to learn what we're trying to elucidate to you.

Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear.

Bossman,

A staunch anti-union / pro-management individual is not going to be convinced by experience - especially coming from union members. We're viewed as evil and bastards who are bringing down capitalism. Why converse with such people if you disagree with the premise, perhaps even the right, to collectively bargain?

But - you know that.

[SoCalAprch]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

I wasn't quite that quick, but as you can imagine, it was a busy day.

Here is our response that was sent out to our pilot group. You can also find a press release from us on the ALPA web site and through Google.


Fellow Pilots,
AirTran has just announced an agreement with SkyWest for CRJ feeder service into Milwaukee. Under the terms of the deal, SkyWest will initially operate five CRJ-200 aircraft–in SkyWest livery–between Pittsburgh (PIT), St. Louis (STL), Canton/Akron (CAK), Indianapolis (IND), Des Moines (DSM), Omaha (OMA) and Milwaukee (MKE). Any additional service resulting from this agreement is not yet known.
We are concerned by our management’s move to shift flying to another carrier, even as growth at mainline AirTran has stagnated for nearly two years. This affects all of us, as pilot career progression could be slowed by such outsourcing.

Furthermore, it’s unclear how the utilization of RJs in 2010 would be any more successful or profitable than it was to use them in 2003, when the company ended AirTran Jet-Connect. What is abundantly clear, unfortunately, is that our contract allows management great latitude to give your job to other airlines, including non-union SkyWest.

We believe today’s announcement is an affront to AirTran pilots, as well as all AirTran employees, who have worked so hard to build this airline, only to potentially have their jobs outsourced. The name AirTran reflects the quality service to which pilots and other employee groups have largely contributed. For this reason, we find it ironic that management has been critical of Republic Holdings for destroying the Midwest Airlines brand while they risk weakening our own product.

To be clear, we are encouraged that management is looking for ways to grow profitability. We believe, however, that over the long-term, AirTran pilots are better suited to performing flying for AirTran, and we are hopeful that the Company will realize the benefits of having AirTran pilots do that work. Southwest and JetBlue don’t let others fly their passengers, and neither should we.

Be assured that the MEC is exploring its legal options to determine if this agreement violates our scope language. In the meantime, we will be closely monitoring this arrangement and working with the Association’s Economic & Financial Analysis Department to quantify the impact to our pilots. Of course, restrictions on the Company’s right to outsource will be a subject of negotiations during our upcoming discussions on scope. While recent events no doubt highlight the importance of Section 1 of our collective bargaining agreement, you can be confident that the MEC’s guidance to the Negotiating Committee on scope did not require any such reminder.

We need you to participate now. We need every line pilot to attend SPSC events to ensure that management knows how seriously we take this potential threat to our profession and to our job security. You will soon receive information on the next SPSC event. Please make every effort to attend and demonstrate to management not only that you are concerned by their actions to harm our brand and outsource our flying, but also that you are determined to achieve a new contract with better scope, better pay, and better work rules. Remember: we ARE major airline pilots, and we DESERVE a major airline contract.

In unity,

Your Master Executive Council

This is bad bad bad... Whats to make Skywest not just go out and buy some 717s and 737s and start operating at other cities under a "code share" with you guys? What does your scope language say about this? We may be bad here at Republic but at least we are buying the airlines and screwing things up on our own. This just looks like a creative way to operate bigger aircraft for multiple airlines without dealing with the pilot's scope. Pretty soon its gonna be Skywest and Republic flying around narrow body mainline planes with Republic and Skywest painted on the side with codesharing passengers from multiple different airlines in the back.

[surreal1221]

As Polar would say. . .

Scope.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

With all do respect, the endless supply of wannabe airline pilots gives regional pilot groups little or no leverage to make substantial gains in pay and benefits. Management knows this. Why would they pay existing guys more when they have guys chomping at the bit to work there at the existing pay?

What a joke. Thousands more pilots want to work for UPS vs. commuters yet they have leverage as they own their own brand. Commuter pilots have very little leverage when it comes to the RFP contracts, that is why our pay is low, it's not because pilots want to work there. Get over yourself.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

What a joke. Thousands more pilots want to work for UPS vs. commuters yet they have leverage as they own their own brand. Commuter pilots have very little leverage when it comes to the RFP contracts, that is why our pay is low, it's not because pilots want to work there. Get over yourself.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by PeanuckleCRJ

The union opposes this b/c it is outsourced flying. Outsourced flying is lower quality, operated by employees that have minimal motivation to the "host" company's bottom line, and is built for one thing: saving money at whatever the expense.

The only people that benefit from outsourced flying are the ones that work at said outsourced company.

So much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. Sorry to say, but it's not all about pilots when it comes to a job. Not even close. You're a number and will be treated as such. Seriously guys, if you think you know what's best, you shouldn't be a pilot.

As ATN Pilot alluded to earlier, one of the routes proposed to be flown by SkyWest is consistently full. Still doesn't mean they're making money on said route. Or maybe they are, and they want to create more frequency to help win that route of Midwest. How would you know, you're not in management.

Anyone could start up an airline and fill seats if they charge too little (reference SkyBus).

Many companies outsource their work because they have to. This is a pure business decision they feel is in their best interest at the time.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by SoCalAprch

This is bad bad bad... Whats to make Skywest not just go out and buy some 717s and 737s and start operating at other cities under a "code share" with you guys? What does your scope language say about this? We may be bad here at Republic but at least we are buying the airlines and screwing things up on our own. This just looks like a creative way to operate bigger aircraft for multiple airlines without dealing with the pilot's scope. Pretty soon its gonna be Skywest and Republic flying around narrow body mainline planes with Republic and Skywest painted on the side with codesharing passengers from multiple different airlines in the back.

Honestly, I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.

[A-300F4-622R]

Originally Posted by wheelsup

What a joke. Thousands more pilots want to work for UPS vs. commuters yet they have leverage as they own their own brand. Commuter pilots have very little leverage when it comes to the RFP contracts, that is why our pay is low, it's not because pilots want to work there. Get over yourself.

New pilots go to regionals because the see it as a means to an end. And end like UPS or Delta or whatever major they like. They still view it as a stepping stone and management knows it.

[A-300F4-622R]

If any of you took a job at a regional with the intention of using it as a stepping stone to a major, look in the mirror as to why the regionals are the way they are.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

If any of you took a job at a regional with the intention of using it as a stepping stone to a major, look in the mirror as to why the regionals are the way they are.

Some of us take every job like it is going to be the one we end our career at.

[jynxyjoe]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

New pilots go to regionals because the see it as a means to an end. And end like UPS or Delta or whatever major they like. They still view it as a stepping stone and management knows it.

Right but that doesn't address Wheelsup argument.

[stuckingfk]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

New pilots go to regionals because the see it as a means to an end. And end like UPS or Delta or whatever major they like. They still view it as a stepping stone and management knows it.

Hardly.

I know plenty of lifers that went to regionals knowing they'd be a lifer.

[wheelsup]

Originally Posted by A-300F4-622R

New pilots go to regionals because the see it as a means to an end. And end like UPS or Delta or whatever major they like. They still view it as a stepping stone and management knows it.

I can't argue with that, as it's 100% (or close to it) true. There will always be people that stay at the commuter level for various issues.

But your argument is that pay at the commuters is low because of all the pilots that want to work there. That simply isn't true, and its disingenuous at best to even imply that.

Yes, pilots want to work there (although that is debatable after the last round of heavy hiring was yielding bonuses), but the same can be said for every major, in fact even more so.

If you're inferring that pilots don't have the backbone to strike for higher wages, I believe you are mislead. I think a lot of pilots at that level want higher pay, either they can't be released or their flying gets rebid (ACA, AWAC, XJT, TSA) and they lose their leverage.

If UPS could play your group against another your wages would successively come down year over year as well, and it has nothing to do with your pay (now) being good compared to others.