Skywest to fly for Airtran

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

The union is saying they oppose this deal because it would be bad for the flying public and the company. You said yourself this is a win win for airtran. I would go as far as to speculate that the union opposes skywest in anything they do because their pilots don't pay union dues.

The union opposes this b/c it is outsourced flying. Outsourced flying is lower quality, operated by employees that have minimal motivation to the "host" company's bottom line, and is built for one thing: saving money at whatever the expense.

The only people that benefit from outsourced flying are the ones that work at said outsourced company.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by PeanuckleCRJ

A union looks out for the employees that it represents. Employees benefit from a company that is viable and has a good bottom line.

Not working out so well for you tonight....

Are you saying that unions and labor contracts are good for the companies bottom line?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Are you saying that unions and labor contracts are good for the companies bottom line?

Absolutely.

Delta has one major union, how many billions have they lost?

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by PeanuckleCRJ

The union opposes this b/c it is outsourced flying. Outsourced flying is lower quality, operated by employees that have minimal motivation to the "host" company's bottom line, and is built for one thing: saving money at whatever the expense.

The only people that benefit from outsourced flying are the ones that work at said outsourced company.

The union is claiming this about the customers and the companies bottom line not about outsourcing flying.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

On what basis do you qualify your statement upon?

Which statement? That southwest does things differently? Or that I found the union propaganda to be asinine?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

The union is claiming this about the customers and the companies bottom line not about outsourcing flying.

If you really feel that way, feel free to call the Air Tran MEC offices in Atlanta, allay your concerns and let us know what they tell you.

I mean, if you feel THAT strongly about it.

I'm serious!

[PGT]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Which statement? That southwest does things differently? Or that I found the union propaganda to be asinine?

Just a question, your profile says you're a CFI MEI CFII with 1350 hours. I'm guessing you haven't been to the 121 world to experience unions first hand?

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Absolutely.

Delta has one major union, how many billions have they lost?

About 15 billion since 2005.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

About 15 billion since 2005.

And how heavily unionized is Delta?

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

And how heavily unionized is Delta?

**chuckle** You need a foot in mouth smiley on here for you know who....

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by PeanuckleCRJ

**chuckle** You need a foot in mouth smiley on here for you know who....

Shh! He's looking it up and probably realizing "DOH! Yeah, they're not all that unionized... Curses! Must... find... support for my postulate!"

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

If you really feel that way, feel free to call the Air Tran MEC offices in Atlanta, allay your concerns and let us know what they tell you.

I mean, if you feel THAT strongly about it.

I'm serious!

I didn't say I cared I'm just pointing out that statement from the union you posted is disingenuous.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

And how heavily unionized is Delta?

Enlighten me.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Shh! He's looking it up and probably realizing "DOH! Yeah, they're not all that unionized... Curses! Must... find... support for my postulate!"

\


Speaking of, we had a FA crew my last trip which was exactly split with pro AFA and anti AFA tags...

There were also at least 25 cats between the 4 of them....

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Enlighten me.

It's not.

Pilots are the only union.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

So why would the union care what Skywest is doing if they are on their own and it doesn't effect airtrans own routes?

The flights are being operated under our code. The tickets are sold on our website. These aren't Skywest flights, these are AirTran flights, just flown on a different company's airplanes. Why do we care? Because that flying should be done by our pilots.

Airtran would be better off (not necessarily doing well) without it's union too.

AirTran would be nothing more than a sweatshop without its unions.

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

The union is saying they oppose this deal because it would be bad for the flying public and the company. You said yourself this is a win win for airtran. I would go as far as to speculate that the union opposes skywest in anything they do because their pilots don't pay union dues.

You would be wrong. This deal is bad for our customers and bad for our airline. The brand is being diluted by small, uncomfortable RJs that don't have our business class seating, in-flight WiFi, and free Sirius radio. This is a lose-lose deal.

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

I didn't say I cared I'm just pointing out that statement from the union you posted is disingenuous.

So what did the Air Tran MEC say when you called to allay your concerns, or are we just going to sit behind the keyboard and make blanket statements without putting forth any effort to understand the how and the why?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

Enlighten me.

You're apparently the expert man, tell me! I haven't even had my evening cocktail yet and this is already a great time!

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

Shh! He's looking it up and probably realizing "DOH! Yeah, they're not all that unionized... Curses! Must... find... support for my postulate!"

So they lost money without much help from the union. Does that prove unions are good for business? Or is this such a rabid anti-management crowd that any failing on the part of management automatically vindicates the union?

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

You would be wrong. This deal is bad for our customers and bad for our airline. The brand is being diluted by small, uncomfortable RJs that don't have our business class seating, in-flight WiFi, and free Sirius radio. This is a lose-lose deal.

Which is why AT whipped that large Southern-based airline's ass on a number of routes.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Doug Taylor

So what did the Air Tran MEC say when you called to allay your concerns, or are we just going to sit behind the keyboard and make blanket statements without putting forth any effort to understand the how and the why?

Look one post up I think we just hear from the FL MEC.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

So they lost money without much help from the union. Does that prove unions are good for business? Or is this such a rabid anti-management crowd that any failing on the part of management automatically vindicates the union?

The point being management either makes or losses money not the union. You seem to think the union has a say if a company makes money or not.

[Killtron2000]

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

The flights are being operated under our code. The tickets are sold on our website. These aren't Skywest flights, these are AirTran flights, just flown on a different company's airplanes. Why do we care? Because that flying should be done by our pilots.

Airtran wouldn't have these routes if skywest wasn't flying them.

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

AirTran would be nothing more than a sweatshop without its unions.

And a single tear rolls down my cheek.

Originally Posted by ATN_Pilot

You would be wrong. This deal is bad for our customers and bad for our airline. The brand is being diluted by small, uncomfortable RJs that don't have our business class seating, in-flight WiFi, and free Sirius radio. This is a lose-lose deal.

Yeah what do the CEOs know about business.

[ATN_Pilot]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

Cue Todd in 5.....4.....3.....2.....1...

I wasn't quite that quick, but as you can imagine, it was a busy day.

Here is our response that was sent out to our pilot group. You can also find a press release from us on the ALPA web site and through Google.


Fellow Pilots,
AirTran has just announced an agreement with SkyWest for CRJ feeder service into Milwaukee. Under the terms of the deal, SkyWest will initially operate five CRJ-200 aircraft–in SkyWest livery–between Pittsburgh (PIT), St. Louis (STL), Canton/Akron (CAK), Indianapolis (IND), Des Moines (DSM), Omaha (OMA) and Milwaukee (MKE). Any additional service resulting from this agreement is not yet known.
We are concerned by our management’s move to shift flying to another carrier, even as growth at mainline AirTran has stagnated for nearly two years. This affects all of us, as pilot career progression could be slowed by such outsourcing.

Furthermore, it’s unclear how the utilization of RJs in 2010 would be any more successful or profitable than it was to use them in 2003, when the company ended AirTran Jet-Connect. What is abundantly clear, unfortunately, is that our contract allows management great latitude to give your job to other airlines, including non-union SkyWest.

We believe today’s announcement is an affront to AirTran pilots, as well as all AirTran employees, who have worked so hard to build this airline, only to potentially have their jobs outsourced. The name AirTran reflects the quality service to which pilots and other employee groups have largely contributed. For this reason, we find it ironic that management has been critical of Republic Holdings for destroying the Midwest Airlines brand while they risk weakening our own product.

To be clear, we are encouraged that management is looking for ways to grow profitability. We believe, however, that over the long-term, AirTran pilots are better suited to performing flying for AirTran, and we are hopeful that the Company will realize the benefits of having AirTran pilots do that work. Southwest and JetBlue don’t let others fly their passengers, and neither should we.

Be assured that the MEC is exploring its legal options to determine if this agreement violates our scope language. In the meantime, we will be closely monitoring this arrangement and working with the Association’s Economic & Financial Analysis Department to quantify the impact to our pilots. Of course, restrictions on the Company’s right to outsource will be a subject of negotiations during our upcoming discussions on scope. While recent events no doubt highlight the importance of Section 1 of our collective bargaining agreement, you can be confident that the MEC’s guidance to the Negotiating Committee on scope did not require any such reminder.

We need you to participate now. We need every line pilot to attend SPSC events to ensure that management knows how seriously we take this potential threat to our profession and to our job security. You will soon receive information on the next SPSC event. Please make every effort to attend and demonstrate to management not only that you are concerned by their actions to harm our brand and outsource our flying, but also that you are determined to achieve a new contract with better scope, better pay, and better work rules. Remember: we ARE major airline pilots, and we DESERVE a major airline contract.

In unity,

Your Master Executive Council

[Doug Taylor]

Originally Posted by Killtron2000

So they lost money without much help from the union. Does that prove unions are good for business? Or is this such a rabid anti-management crowd that any failing on the part of management automatically vindicates the union?

Ok, let's hit this piece by piece.

Your quote:

Companies with unionized labor pretty consistently lose business to nonunionized companies in every industry.

Was incorrect. Delta has virtually none in comparison to the other majors, ESPECIALLY in comparison to the heaviest unionized and most profitable carrier, SWA.

SWA has done well in spite of the unions not because of them. Airtran would be better off (not necessarily doing well) without it's union too.

I'm sure SWAPA would also thoroughly disagree with this statement as well.

I'm not trying to pull rank here, but there are a number of us that are "in" the business trying to drop some knowledge to help you out. I'd heavily suggest taking the opportunity to learn what we're trying to elucidate to you.

Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear.