House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

[Clocks]

http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/827122.html

WASHINGTON — The House is expected to vote today on new airline safety legislation — but because of a backroom deal among lawmakers, the measure is not quite as tough as the families of Flight 3407 victims would have liked.

The final version of the bill, unveiled Tuesday, includes an entirely new section aimed at placating collegiate aviation programs. The provision allows an undetermined amount of university class time to be counted toward the 1,500 "flight hours" the bill would require before a pilot could join a passenger airline.


The requirement still would rise sharply from the current 250 hours.
But the behind-the-scenes addition of that new language — included at the request of a powerful Florida lawmaker whose district includes a prominent flight school — didn't exactly thrill those who lost loved ones in the February crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 in Clarence Center.


"This is kind of out of the blue," said Susan Bourque, whose sister, Beverly Eckert, was among the 50 people who died in the crash.

Indeed, even some of the bill's co-sponsors — such as Rep. Chris Lee, R-Clarence — did not know the changes had been made.


"I'm a little mystified," Lee said. "I'm always surprised with the ways of Washington."


Lee and the Flight 3407 families stressed, though, that even with the changes, the bill represents an extraordinarily strong effort to bolster flight safety.


The legislation also would impose stringent training requirements to make sure pilots know how to operate stall recovery systems and would force airlines to develop fatigue risk management systems for pilots.


Democrats and Republicans on the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee worked together on the bill, which the committee approved unanimously July 30, just a day after it was introduced.


But Embry-Riddle University and other universities with aviation programs later complained that the 1,500-flight-hour requirement would cause prospective students to shun them in favor of local flight instructors who offer plenty of hands-on experience.


In response, Rep. John L. Mica of Florida — the top Republican on the committee, which oversees aviation, and the congressman from the district that includes Embry-Riddle's campus — went to work.


Negotiations with Rep. Jerry F. Costello, an Illinois Democrat and chairman of the aviation subcommittee, produced the compromise, which allows the head of the Federal Aviation Administration to decide how much classroom time can be counted as flight time under the 1,500-hour requirement. The classroom time would have to "enhance safety more" than would additional hours in the cockpit, the insertion says.


FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt and other pilots who testified at a House hearing last month voiced strong support for a 1,500-hour fight-time requirement, which has reduced the concerns of the Flight 3407 families.

"I'm a little bit nervous about this," said Mike Loftus, a former Continental pilot whose daughter, Maddy, died in the crash. "If it were anybody other than Randy Babbitt in that job, I would be worried" that the flight-hours requirement would be genuinely weakened.


Only two weeks ago, Mica called Bourque to reiterate his support for the 1,500-hour flight time requirement.


Neither Justin Harclerode, Mica's spokesman, nor Tim Brady, dean of Embry-Riddle's College of Aviation, returned calls seeking comment on the new language in the bill.


The provision raises a key question about the legislative process: Can senior lawmakers insert language into a bill that has already been approved by the committee?


"In essence, yes," said Jim Berard, a spokesman for the Transportation Committee.


Such last-minute insertions are not unusual. Lee cited that fact, and the flight-safety insertion, as reasons for his push to require that all legislation be made public 72 hours before a final vote.


The aviation safety bill, with the changes, is expected to pass by voice vote, and the Flight 3407 families continue to support it strongly.


"You don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water," Bourque said.
Kevin Kuwik, another leader of the families group, agreed, saying: Obviously, there are a lot of good things in the bill."


The new provision conflicts with legislation introduced last week by Sen. Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y., which does not give the flight schools a break on the 1,500-hour flight time requirement.


"There is no question that we should be raising the training requirements for commercial pilots," Schumer said. "The Senate's version of this legislation goes right to the heart of the problem, and I will work with the conference committee to put the Senate's stronger language in the final bill."


The Flight 3407 families will push for that, said Kuwik, who called the insertion of the new language into the House bill "our introduction to politics."

The silver lining from this is that it will heavily encourage prospective pilots to attend a 4 year college. That's an often talked about step in the right direction for increasing the professionalism of pilots. And there are quite a few accredited university programs that don't have Riddle's price tag.

Plus Babbit could decide "all of your 4 year college classroom time is worth 100 hours of credit", and the impact would be minimal.

[Gonzo]

How much did ERAU pay for that one?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

How much did ERAU pay for that one?

The thing these people forget is we are RELYING on the applicants to be honest about their times... A pencil can all of a sudden turn a 1.0 into a 1.9 etc.... I dont see how making a random number such as 1500 will make things better and or more safe. Let alone the fact that class room work will be allowed to replace experience?

[jhugz]

I really hope this fails. Not for the 1500hr rule but for the college loophole.

I remember being in a crew van w/ a Spirit Capt. and if I remember right IOE captain complaining about the Riddle Grad's in the right seat. It was absolutely hilarious to listen to.

This will absolutely destroy the industry because if your willing to have Mommy/Daddy's checkbook pay for your 100k tuition then you're willing to bum off mom/dad when being payed 18k to fly a shiny jet.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by jhugz

I remember being in a crew van w/ a Spirit Capt. and if I remember right IOE captain complaining about the Riddle Grad's in the right seat. It was absolutely hilarious to listen to.

That's something of a known issue with Spirit if I recall the story correctly. They took a fair number of (mostly) female Riddle grads at one point in time to meet a gender equality issue. Needless to say it bit them pretty badly.

[upup89]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

The thing these people forget is we are RELYING on the applicants to be honest about their times... A pencil can all of a sudden turn a 1.0 into a 1.9 etc.... I dont see how making a random number such as 1500 will make things better and or more safe. Let alone the fact that class room work will be allowed to replace experience?

You like to hope that a sim evaluation or during training that would shine right through.

[mrivc211]

Originally Posted by meyers9163

The thing these people forget is we are RELYING on the applicants to be honest about their times... A pencil can all of a sudden turn a 1.0 into a 1.9 etc.... I dont see how making a random number such as 1500 will make things better and or more safe. Let alone the fact that class room work will be allowed to replace experience?

I remember back in the day when you used to have to fly with the owner/chief to get the job. Why? Because usually, within the first five minutes, he could tell if you were a 100 hour pilot, or the 1000 hour guy you claim you were. I couldn't agree more with that, now that I've flown with tons of guys.

My observation as a new EMB captain was the FO's were very unprepared, weak, and nervous.

My observation as a CRJ captain is the FO's were more calm, knew procedures a lot better, were "ahead of the airplane" more so than guys flying much slower.

I believe the reason behind this is when we hired into the EMB, most new hires would come from flight instructing. When we hired into the jet, most came with turbine time.


As I start to get older, get more gray, lose more hair, I start to see the words of my mentors coming true. All those times when they would teach me not to do this, or to always make sure you read the checklist and not memorize it, or make sure you double check everything, was said for a reason. Some of it I had to learn the hard way, but after making a couple of mistakes, I quickly learned that maybe I should listen to everything they had taught me so I don't make the other mistakes.


disclaimer* I started out in the right seat of the brasilia, from a CFI background. I was nervous too. Excuse me for sounding a bit full of hot air, but theres no better way to put this, I knew what the heck I was doing as far as airmanship was concerned. I had good situational awareness. I knew not to fly on glideslope 5 miles behind a B757 going into LAX, not to cross the threshold 10 knots fast with a tailwind on a short runway. I knew the arrival gates corridors into LAX, so when Socal pointed out traffic, I was johnny on the spot with it. I made dang sure if I lacked skill in one area, I worked my butt off in others to show I was willing to learn and could do the job well once I learned it properly.

One VERY VERY big way to make up for your lack of skill, whether your flying a B737 or a Cessna 152 is your willingness to learn and a good attitude. I guarantee that 99 times out of 100, if you have that good attitude, the other guy your flying with will see that rare asset, and be willing to go above and beyond to teach you.

A lot that I said in this post makes me sound like a know it all, sorry if it comes off that way, but theres really no other way to put it.

[CRJDriver]

That college loophole is crap. Most airlines require you to have a college degree anyway, and they should! Also, they should look at airline interviews and how they conduct them and how they screen applicants. I've interviewed at a few regionals now, and most of them were a joke compared to a 135 interview I've had.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Clocks

The silver lining from this is that it will heavily encourage prospective pilots to attend a 4 year college. That's an often talked about step in the right direction for increasing the professionalism of pilots.

I don't see that as a silver lining at all. No offense to the Ivy League of the Skies folks, but I've seen no correlation between professionalism and aviation programs at any of the flight schools or airlines I've worked at. Sense of entitlement, yes. Professionalism, no.

[Boris Badenov]

On the plus side, now that coveted Puppymill "college degree" in Aviation Managmintz will now get you something other than laughed at.

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by zmiller4

I don't see that as a silver lining at all. No offense to the Ivy League of the Skies folks, but I've seen no correlation between professionalism and aviation programs at any of the flight schools or airlines I've worked at. Sense of entitlement, yes. Professionalism, no.

So an industry of high school grads is perfectly fine with you? In that case regional pay is right where it should be.

[zmiller4]

Originally Posted by Clocks

So an industry of high school grads is perfectly fine with you? In that case regional pay is right where it should be.

Not really sure where I said that.

I think the college degree requirement that most airlines have is excellent. I haven't seen any correlation between a pilot's level of professionalism and where they did their training.

[Clocks]

Oh...you're talking about an individual pilot's professionalism. I agree going to college wont guarantee someone acts like a professional. I was talking about internal and external perception of the industry which I probably worded vaguely.

[OldTownPilot]

Now why should someone that has a degree in "flying airplanes" get a 1250 hour hiring advantage over someone with a aeronautical engineering degree that flew outside of a college program?

[meyers9163]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Now why should someone that has a degree in "flying airplanes" get a 1250 hour hiring advantage over someone with a aeronautical engineering degree that flew outside of a college program?

That's the government for you! They know jack CRAP yet want to act as if they do about this industry...

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by OldTownPilot

Now why should someone that has a degree in "flying airplanes" get a 1250 hour hiring advantage over someone with a aeronautical engineering degree that flew outside of a college program?

Now that is a valid point.

Their argument is that college aviation classes contribute to your knowledge above and beyond an FBO pilot and increase safety. But their motivation is different from my 'silver lining'. I would just like to see more degree'd pilots which this will likely help, I don't care what they majored in.

[juxtapilot]

OMFG. I'm fine with the 1500TT, but the loophole is not okay. Thanks a lot Washington.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Clocks

So an industry of high school grads is perfectly fine with you? In that case regional pay is right where it should be.

Look into the UAW on that one champ. Those guys make 50k to start while screwing in lug nuts on an assembly line.

We possess a trait. We are being hired on that trait not on our college degree as you may think. The college degree is one of the dumbest hoops to jump through in the industry.

I have about 9ish classes left in my BA in Aviation and it has taught me practically nothing. It was an absolute joke.

[Clocks]

Many people place no value in college degrees, but they don't make the HR rules.

Personally if we're fighting for more pay, more benefits, better rules, then I'd rather be in an industry full of college grads (even if some people think the degrees didn't teach them anything) than having the perception of watching my flight crew get out of their cars with "SENIORS RULE! 2009" paint still fresh on their back window.

We want MORE as professional pilots. We need to win the perception that we deserve more pay. No one believes the UAW should be paid more, and it was quite a political hot button issue when our taxes were going to subsidize their ridiculous salaries last year.

Anyways, I don't know why I'm defending college degrees. It doesn't matter if anyone agrees with me because if this becomes law there will be more, and it's often a de facto requirement anyways.

[Seggy]

There is a very important part of this bill though that should not be overlooked...

SEC. 16. PILOT FATIGUE.


(a) Flight and Duty Time Regulations-

(1) IN GENERAL- In accordance with paragraph (3), the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall issue regulations, based on the best available scientific information--

(A) to specify limitations on the hours of flight and duty time allowed for pilots to address problems relating to pilot fatigue; and

(B) to require part 121 air carriers to develop and implement fatigue risk management plans.

(2) MATTERS TO BE ADDRESSED- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this subsection, the Administrator shall consider and review the following:
(A) Time of day of flights in a duty period.
(B) Number of takeoff and landings in a duty period.
(C) Number of time zones crossed in a duty period.
(D) The impact of functioning in multiple time zones or on different daily schedules.
(E) Research conducted on fatigue, sleep, and circadian rhythms.
(F) Sleep and rest requirements recommended by the National Transportation Safety Board and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
(G) International standards regarding flight schedules and duty periods.
(H) Alternative procedures to facilitate alertness in the cockpit.
(I) Scheduling and attendance policies and practices, including sick leave.
(J) The effects of commuting, the means of commuting, and the length of the commute.
(K) Medical screening and treatment.
(L) Rest environments.
(M) Any other matters the Administrator considers appropriate.

(3) DEADLINES- The Administrator shall issue--

(A) not later than 30 days after the date of enactment of this Act, a notice of proposed rulemaking under subsection (a); and

(B) not later than one year after the date of enactment of this Act, a final rule under subsection (a).

Basically it makes it a law that the FAA Administrator must have new Flight Time/Duty Time rules within a year of this passing

[Socal321]

Typical gov. They make a bill to counteract the problem of insufficient piloting skills yet they put an out for people that don't have experience but have money to pay a college flight program. I hope this "out" won't be a big one.

Still this is the right direction to hopefully raise the salaries and quality of our profession. It will be very hard for airlines to demand lower pay for new and current pilots when there are qualified pilots that know their worth in the cockpit.

[RWH1986]

I like the college loophole because it gives me reassurance for people like me who are paying our own way through college with student loans. Try paying a 1000 a month for the 5 years living on a CFI or other low time pilot job pay.

[ChasenSFO]

The loophole thing is retarded. This just means everyone is going to go to ERAU and UND and those kind of schools, major in flying, then have no backup when the crap hits the fan.

[machnumber]

Originally Posted by Clocks

So an industry of high school grads is perfectly fine with you? In that case regional pay is right where it should be.

Are you trying to say that because you went to some 4 year school you are any better of a pilot then someone who did not, any more of a professional?

Some of the best pilots I know, some of the most professional people I know, are not 4 year college graduates. Professionalism is not bought with a degree folks.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by machnumber

Are you trying to say that because you went to some 4 year school you are any better of a pilot then someone who did not, any more of a professional?

Some of the best pilots I know, some of the most professional people I know, are not 4 year college graduates. Professionalism is not bought with a degree folks.

A 4 year college graduate could probably tell that no, that's not what he's trying to say. A college graduate could also probably tell you why the logic you used to support your position "Some of the best pilots I know..." doesn't quite work.

Hint: Think big picture.