House votes today on 1500hr rule WITH college loophole

[USMCmech]

Acording to the reports, ERAU did not get a free pass.

The FAA is allowed to credit college courses for SOME of the flight time required for an ATP. Even if they give the riddle rats 500 hours credit, that still means they need to fly another 1000.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by USMCmech

Acording to the reports, ERAU did not get a free pass.

The FAA is allowed to credit college courses for SOME of the flight time required for an ATP. Even if they give the riddle rats 500 hours credit, that still means they need to fly another 1000.

Good. Shouldn't be allowed to have such a loophole, since a college course doesn't equate to flight time or time behind the controls. And I'm even a Riddle grad and agree there shouldn't be special consideration for them or others.

[n6149s]

Correct me if Im wrong, but wasnt that a 100 hour add not a 1000 as someone posted?

[calcapt]

Originally Posted by mrivc211

One VERY VERY big way to make up for your lack of skill, whether your flying a B737 or a Cessna 152 is your willingness to learn and a good attitude. I guarantee that 99 times out of 100, if you have that good attitude, the other guy your flying with will see that rare asset, and be willing to go above and beyond to teach you.

These are words of wisdom. The "willing to be taught" attitude should be carried with you throughout your career. I routinely walk away from the airplane knowing that tomorrow I will be a better captain from what I learned today, sometimes from the unlikeliest of sources.

[surreal1221]

So I just have to ask. . .

What university did the two pilots of 3407 attend?

Since you know, that seems to be a large factor in the debate over the exception being made for a certain large aviation centric university.

[Firebird2XC]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

So I just have to ask. . .

What university did the two pilots of 3407 attend?

Since you know, that seems to be a large factor in the debate over the exception being made for a certain large aviation centric university.

One was a Gulfstream 'Academy' grad.. the other was a traditional 4 year college/ CFI route type.

The 'college academies' loophole is better than nothing. The ATP 'zero to hero' in 90 day programs will grind to a near-halt. It'll take 4 years and a serious regimen of study to buy your way into a job this way, at least.

[Inverted25]

I was just about to ask will ATP and DCA be included in this loophole or no? ATP will still have a good slogan it will just be lets us get you there in 90 days so you can start building those 1500 hours now! I should soo be a marketing major! To me that actually seems attractive!

[aloft]

If I remember my high school civics class correctly, the differences between the Senate and House bills will need to be worked out in conference, and such minor differences are frequently dropped. So...how can we lobby to make sure this particular "minor difference" is dropped from the bill?

[Clocks]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

I was just about to ask will ATP and DCA be included in this loophole or no? ATP will still have a good slogan it will just be lets us get you there in 90 days so you can start building those 1500 hours now! I should soo be a marketing major! To me that actually seems attractive!

I couldn't find the details when I briefly reviewed the bill. The testimony was in support of accredited 4 year flight programs, of which there are not all that many. ATP and DCI are not on there by a long shot. Only 2 of the accredited programs are an associate degree even.

http://www.aabi.aero/programs.html
http://www.aabi.aero/programs2.html

[WalterSobchak]

Originally Posted by aloft

If I remember my high school civics class correctly, the differences between the Senate and House bills will need to be worked out in conference, and such minor differences are frequently dropped. So...how can we lobby to make sure this particular "minor difference" is dropped from the bill?

Write your Congressmen/women and Senators. I do.

[RWH1986]

Originally Posted by CubCaptain

HAHA good luck with that. "CFI or other low time pilot job." So regional FO is a high paying pilot job?? Your whole statement has so much wrong with it. You're overpaying for a degree that has very little value and expecting to be put ahead of others because of your bad decision. Low time pilot pay is part of the career equation dude; hate to break it to you. Maybe "CFI or other low time pilot job" experience is what you need to actually be qualified to fly 121. You're basically saying that because you have more debt you are more qualified to operate an aircraft with someone's family in the back?

I'm not saying that just because I have more debt than others that I am more qualified. I am just looking out for the fact I need to pay off my debt. Even if the ATP rule passes the airlines are not going to pay more which increases the years everybody would have to spend making less than 20k a year. I do have to say that I have learned more and am doing better in my college classes than compared to when I was learning at local flight schools/fbo. It's all opinion and I dont think I made a "bad decision" to get a degree.

[BobDDuck]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

The 'college academies' loophole is better than nothing. The ATP 'zero to hero' in 90 day programs will grind to a near-halt. It'll take 4 years and a serious regimen of study to buy your way into a job this way, at least.

When I went through ATP the RJ program was just coming on line. Up until that point it was fully expected that you would instruct for a year or two and get your 1000 to 1500 hours and then go somewhere else. When the economy was cranking it wasn't too hard to do 800 to 1000 hours of instruction in a year.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Firebird2XC

One was a Gulfstream 'Academy' grad.. the other was a traditional 4 year college/ CFI route type.

The 'college academies' loophole is better than nothing. The ATP 'zero to hero' in 90 day programs will grind to a near-halt. It'll take 4 years and a serious regimen of study to buy your way into a job this way, at least.

So the Captain had no formal education?

Double-edged sword.

No more zero-to-hero, which is fine, the push for RJ programs was insane and ridiculous - especially considering some of the people that came through my previous-previous place of employment thinking they'd be hot shot airline pilots just by doing this RJ course. 45 year old guys who owned their own business, wanting to dream for a day. . .

The best thing it'll do is provide a real incentive for people to take real value in finding other ways to fly from 190/250 hours to 1500tt. (Be it CFI, VFR 135 to IFR 135, to whatever).

Now, the question is, since it's clear the law will be an ATP w/ 1500 hours TT, how will a multi-crew license play into all of this? Does this effectively shut that down as well?

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Now, the question is, since it's clear the law will be an ATP w/ 1500 hours TT, how will a multi-crew license play into all of this? Does this effectively shut that down as well?

You can only hope, but you have see the house fold today so who knows.

[Airdale]

Maybe this will just deter people from this ridiculous industry. And maybe, just maybe, the airlines will realize that people won't pay $100k for the education to make $30,000 a year and replace a Midwest pilot who was making more than double that.

I woudn't recommend anybody get into this career. Fly, absolutely. For a living? Hahaha...

[FlyChicaga]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.

I got all of that and more at my university flight program. Personally, I am very pleased with the instruction I received at the University of Illinois, and if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't change a thing.

Not all universities are one in the same, however.

[surreal1221]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Maybe this will just deter people from this ridiculous industry. And maybe, just maybe, the airlines will realize that people won't pay $100k for the education to make $30,000 a year and replace a Midwest pilot who was making more than double that.

I woudn't recommend anybody get into this career. Fly, absolutely. For a living? Hahaha...

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

Although, I think it should be clarified.

There are some great flying jobs out there, you (general you) won't see them.

Stay away from the airlines, and you might be able to enjoy the career.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by surreal1221

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner.

Although, I think it should be clarified.

There are some great flying jobs out there, you (general you) won't see them.

Stay away from the airlines, and you might be able to enjoy the career.

Yeah...I'm working on my plan B. I just can't see myself still doing this in 10 years. I want to be flying, thats for sure. But you can only slam your head into a wall so much before you realize enough is enough.

When I was a student and even a CFI, I was so wide eyed and excited about flying for the airlines. Wow, just to walk through the terminal in a uniform was a thrill. 3 years later, I can't believe how naive I was. Looking back, doing my 20 in the Coast Guard would have been the best choice.

[surreal1221]

I hear ya man. Some days I feel the same way.

Anyway.

[Seggy]

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch two things on this loop-hole


A) This college credit item was not in the Senate Bill which was introduced by Schumer up in NY. This loop-hole was put in by the REP that comes from the ERAU district in Daytona Beach. Schumer is being pushed by the victims families so I think this will be taken out because they are pissed about this loop-hole.

B) Even if it does get in, it is going to be up to the FAA Administrator how many hours will go towards that 'credit'. I think *hope* at most it will be take one hour per the credit total needed for a bachelors degree in 'aviation whatever studies'

My take on it.

[FlyChicaga]

The guys and gals at the major airlines aren't going to be there forever. They're going to retire, and those who quit aren't going to be the ones filling those seats. Question is, should we leave all the "good" jobs to the SJSers, or should those of us who want to affect change hang on and hope we can do something to fix this mess?

Personally, I've thought long and hard about getting out of the industry (and continue to do so). I consider it only because of family. Do I want to be on the road for half my life, away from my kids? Will being "home" in a "normal" job even afford me more time with them?

Eh, for now I'm staying put. I'll ride this one out, because I have a feeling things will turn around. They may get worse, but they'll get better.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by FlyChicaga

The guys and gals at the major airlines aren't going to be there forever. They're going to retire, and those who quit aren't going to be the ones filling those seats. Question is, should we leave all the "good" jobs to the SJSers, or should those of us who want to affect change hang on and hope we can do something to fix this mess?

The indistry needs good people who want to stay, not just SJSers who have to stay because they have "nowhere else to go!!!" (as Richard Gere would say in Officer And a Gentleman).

Personally, I've thought long and hard about getting out of the industry (and continue to do so). I consider it only because of family. Do I want to be on the road for half my life, away from my kids? Will being "home" in a "normal" job even afford me more time with them?

Eh, for now I'm staying put. I'll ride this one out, because I have a feeling things will turn around. They may get worse, but they'll get better.

Here's the thing though, the airline biz IS NOT the only to make a career out of flying, and certainly isn't the top of the mountain. It's simply one of many ways to make a career out of flying. So don't think you're stuck there by any means. Heck, look at my weird career path. I'm not a 747-400 international Capt for UAL (as the Flight Dept head at ERAU said the school produces during Doug and I's freshman indoc), but I enjoy what I do....it's more than just shuttling cattle from pt A to pt B and being on the road all the time. But that's just me. Everyone has their niche. I would want people to simply make an informed decision knowing that there are other career flying gigs out there, with good pay bene's and QOL, besides 121.

[400A]

Well said Mike! 121 has a long track record of being the "in the public eye" road and destination to making a lot of money and having 18 days off a month.

We need to start a more rigorous campaign on educating people of the other facets of aviation one can make a good living in and have a pretty darn good QOL.

The first step, we need to start stomping on people who flex their epeens about a particular training path. Every time someone spouts off about how pilot from XYZ way of training is the bane of the industry, the collective needs to stomp that crap out. We really need to come together as a group and be a lot A LOT more supportive of everyone, regardless of path taken

As long as we continue to draw a line in the sand and try to alienate people we aren't going to get anywhere. Here is the hint, if you find yourself saying or thinking or preaching that "I did this, this way and those that don't are a burden in the cockpit" YOU are part of the problem.


Ok, rant over. I'll start on the other facets;

I went from instructing to 121 regional to 121 supp cargo to air ambulance. I never thought I would end up in air ambulance, all the 135 on demand horror stories. I have to admit, this is the best job by far. I am home every day, I maybe fly 30 hours a month, two to four legs a day MAX. I do all my own planning and coordination (flight side whise).

I get to fly a well maintained, fairly good performing little airplane. On top of all that, I get to make just a tiny little difference in people's lives.

What I have found, the little bit of experience I got while I was training, is nothing compared to the continued education I strive for on a daily basis. Flying an airplane is easy, making performance and operational decisions is easy (hell the OpSpecs and GOM spell out almost everything), being able to think on your feet, make tough decisions based on safety first, etc. Those are the things a pilot needs.

[jhugz]

Originally Posted by Seggy

Before everyone gets their panties in a bunch two things on this loop-hole


A) This college credit item was not in the Senate Bill which was introduced by Schumer up in NY. This loop-hole was put in by the REP that comes from the ERAU district in Daytona Beach. Schumer is being pushed by the victims families so I think this will be taken out because they are pissed about this loop-hole.

B) Even if it does get in, it is going to be up to the FAA Administrator how many hours will go towards that 'credit'. I think *hope* at most it will be take one hour per the credit total needed for a bachelors degree in 'aviation whatever studies'

My take on it.

Thanks Seggy makes sense.

[dasleben]

Originally Posted by Jbroz04

I never went to a college flight program I did all my ratings through a FBO but from what I have seen flying with college flight students is this. They lack the real world experience that FBO guys get. They are told where and when to go on cross countries. Their hands are held the entire time. I recently flew with a guy who is new to our airport because he came from a college flight program and was scared to land on our 2400 foot runway because he college never let them go into anything this small. Now from a airlines prospect that is fine. But college flight progam students miss out on alot of real world flying. No real grass strips. They can't wake up at 3am and go fly just for the hell it like I used to when i was younger. Plus one the big things is that the most experienced instructors are at the FBOs. At a FBO you have the oppurtinty to learn from a guy who has been doing this a very long time. Not some college kid just passing the time. I'm not saying that college programs arent good. Because some of them are very good. But you miss out on alot of good experiences that you can only experience at a small FBO with a seasoned instructor.

Let me just say this: All flight schools lack real world experience. Every single one of them operate within a controlled environment. I taught 141, 142, as well as 61, and none of them got anywhere near what I'd call as "real" as flying for a company out on the line. An FBO education doesn't prepare you any better than university experience; both guys are going to have substantial learning curves ahead of them. Don't fool yourself.